yepyepyepyep to everything you just expressed! I am reveling in the girlie thing too...in fact, my new tennis racquet has pretty petals on it so I can feel all feminine as I whack that ball with all my might...okay, so I am complex, lol. It's just so cool to explore all the facets of the self, don't you think????
I think a lot of us second generation 20th century feminists have some issues like this. For me, my "tomboyness" was more of the nerdy variety. I would do things like cut open dead frogs to see what was inside or climb as high as possible into trees to read my book and for xmas I always asked for things like chemistry sets. However, for me it wasn't suddenly finding boys to be "cute" that brought out my feminine side. My youngest sister was born when I was 10 and her birth pretty much coincided with a large decline in my mother's mental health. Luckiy, my sister who was 9 at the time and I both really liked having a "live doll" to play with. Therefore, my "masculine" side is a nerd and my "feminine" side is strongly maternal. In my early adolescent mind, a woman's business was babies (and this was obviously the most important business for a human to be in) and boys were just made to help you with the babies (though you could do it yourself if you got a good job with your nerdy side) and sex was just a "treat" that made the whole enterprise that much more fun. I had lots of sexual fantasies and lots of maternal plans but no "bridezilla" fantasies whatsoever. I think experiencing my parent's terrible marriage caused a sort of disconnect for me which made me want to be a lover and a mother but not a wife. My life plan at 20 actually was to get a good job as a scientist and then have about 10 kids with 10 different fathers if necessary.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
What a lovely post. It is so interesting how being feminine and our notion of that plays into the way we negotiate relationships. I, of course, have my own whole story that goes with this topic but I mainly popped on to say that you, Corri, are the real deal - a "whole" person with masculine and feminine attributes and I am thrilled to see you expressing both. You can credit your bf if you like, but, in the end it is you who freed yourself to be all of who you are.
Quote: Listen up, HD, because I think your W may have the same syndrome. I don't think your wife hates men... I think your wife hates women, I think she doesn't like being a woman, doesn't KNOW HOW to be a woman... has no clue. And because of that... she has NO IDEA how to relate to you. None. It's all a competition... for if she had just been born a man... all her problems would be solved.
You know, I was thinking along this same line as I was reading your post. The difference between you and her is, of course, that you have insight, and you are open to revelations such as this. She would deny, deny, deny, because she is so stuck on her feminist views.
Corri, Your insight is fabulous and thank you for seeing fit to share. Your post rang so very true with me. No one taught me how to relate to men in a healthy way. No one taught me how to appreciate a good stilleto (much less how to walk in them). No one gave me instruction on doing my hair/makeup. I still wear the standard jeans/t-shirt, hair in a ponytail, no makeup uniform of the fashion uninformed. This explains my long standing interest in drag queens. Not as fetishism, but in a how do those men end up looking more womanly than I do manner. I know this sounds like a doom and gloom kind of post, but it's not. If no one taught me those things, no one got the chance to get it wrong. I can take my adult sensibility and make it into anything I want. Anybody know where to start?
I don't mind the sun sometime
The images it shows
I can taste you on my lips
And smell you in my clothes
Cinnamon and Sugar
And softly spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through someone elses eyes
BHS-"Pepper"
I’ve been wanting to respond to this thread. I was actually surprised to read a lot of what you wrote her. I guess I don’t know you well enough to see this self-doubting side of you. I know you are very introspective and well aware of relationship issues, but the impression I always had of you was one of a tougher, independent, self sufficient, women’s libber type. So this self-doubting side is new to me. Just let me say that from what I do know of you, I don’t think you have any reason to have ANY such doubts and I think you would be great catch!
Now about your latest post on coming to peace with your femininity… I find this post very interesting because I think my wife, like Hairdog’s, has some anger toward women. She says her anger is really directed toward her father, for his abuse of her mother, and while I believe that, I still think there is still anger toward her mother. I’d like to understand more about what it is that makes women hate being women. You said:
When I was a child... I HATED being a girl. Hated it, hated it, hated it. I envied boys... that they got to play all the sports, that they got to ride motorcycles, that they could walk around with their shirt off... that they just seemed to run things... and I worked very HARD at being a tomboy, otherwise, I didn't have anyone to play with. So I dressed like a boy, acted like a boy, got into fist fights with boys, learned to play every single one of their sports... I rejected all things girl.
All the anger I've carried toward myself for being female all these years, due to some childhood notion I picked up along the way... I had NO IDEA that notion was still rattling around inside of me... NONE.
Was this because boy got to do things you didn’t and did you feel “punished” by not being allowed to do so? Did your mom or dad give more attention to the boys (assuming you have brothers) or at least give different attention (that you wanted)? Did you not get the affirmation/nurturing or other positive feedback to make you feel good about being a girl versus a boy? How did you come to realize you had this anger (other than your statement jumping out of your mouth)?
I'm so NOT jealous of men anymore... not angry at them, not trying to compete with them, not trying to one-up them, be as smart as them, or as strong as them, or.... ANYTHING. I see men and the whole male/female thing in such a different light, I can't even express to you how much I've taken myself by surprise.
Anger and resentment, to me, is the root of all evil, for it, is the root of stress. Of course I have to give myself a wee break here because I never truly understood what I was angry and resentful about... I'd tell you that sure,,, of course I like men. What I figured out is... I DIDN'T LIKE being a woman... I didn't like women... I didn't respect women, nor anything feminine, and therefore, didn't like nor respect myself.
Is this change in your anger due more to not being around an abusive husband or is it due to you becoming more independent and self sufficient? You’ve got such great insight into your emotions and issues, I am wondering why this whole issue has escaped you and why you have come to see it know now? I am not picking, but trying to see if there is a “light bulb” I can turn on to help my wife get past her anger too.
Quote: You can credit your bf if you like, but, in the end it is you who freed yourself to be all of who you are.
I wasn't crediting my boyfriend, I was giving credit to Blackfoot. Lord knows I hit my fair of posters here with a 2 x 4, and none too gently, no thank you. BF honed in on my issue almost right away... and slapped me upside the head with it... in a very gentle, non-Corri, type way... just took me quite some time to figure out what, exactly, he was driving at. And when it finally hit me, I was like, OOHHHHH, THAT'S what he's talking about... <slap to the forehead> Duh.
I don't know that I am so much self-doubting per se... as I am just a bit unsure of my footing, if you can see the difference. I suppose, now, looking back on my life and knowing that I have always rejected my femaleness... I can see very clearly why I felt like I never quite fit in. I was some weird, obscure, homogenous mix of male and female... thinkig and acting like a guy, but being stuck in a woman's body. That may sound like I might be homosexual... but no. I'm not. I've never had any leanings that way... not that there is anything wrong with that... but it wasn't me. I was just stuck in between two worlds, neither male nor female, not really fitting into one group or the other, simply because I rejected myself as a female.
Quote: Now about your latest post on coming to peace with your femininity… I find this post very interesting because I think my wife, like Hairdog’s, has some anger toward women. She says her anger is really directed toward her father, for his abuse of her mother, and while I believe that, I still think there is still anger toward her mother. I’d like to understand more about what it is that makes women hate being women. You said:
I don't know that I have anger toward my mother, per se. I think... maybe... like Mojo said... there is a group of us females that were born during the feminist movement... our mothers were burning bras (or not), getting out into the work force, blazing trails... believing that that was a good thing (which I think I was to some extent)... but us girls were left going... sooooo.... better to be male or female? We kind of got lost in the mix, somehow.
Like I said, I don't know that it was anything that my parents did or didn't do... it was just something that I SAW very clearly with my own child eyes. My world largely involved men who had no respect for women... my mother was bouncing from R to R, M to M... and given, like BF says, men 'lead,' I was naturally following and mirroring what was in my life... a lack of respect for women in general. No one in my world EVER celebrated femininity... doesn't mean my mother didn't try to get me into skirts or ballet lessons... it's just what was being 'told' to me did NOT jive in any way with what I was seeing, observing and experiencing. So I can't really BLAME anyone for these mistaken notions... I just came to them on my own, without conscious thought.
Quote: How did you come to realize you had this anger (other than your statement jumping out of your mouth)?
Well... I knew I had anger, and I guess I always thought it had to do with my sexual abuse. But, things still weren't jiving with me. I battling and addressed that issue to death... faced it, overcame it... faced it again, overcame it again... but still... the anger. Blackfoot really honed in on it for me... I knew I had walls built up around me... but still... WHY? What the heck was the cause? I really had no clue... it didn't make sense.
Here and there, BF would challenge me on my attitude, the way I responded to posters, how I would write things... things that I said and the way I said them... HE noticed my intense competitiveness, my 'in your faceness,' and tried to point it out to me. Okay...
So then I got into reading about Peace Between the Sheets and the whole male/female attraction dance... and I guess I just realized I was following more of a 'male' pattern than a female pattern... and how, in doing so... I was creating a lot of my own problems. BF has gone on and on and on about women learning how to 'surrender,' to men... and I didn't get it, didn't understand what that meant... how does a women surrender without becoming passive?
Started reading more... and slowly wandering into the world of being a woman. Started dating a man who somehow figured out how to bring it out of me without me feeling silly or threatened about it... and the further I wandered into it... the more I realized the truth of what BF goes on and on about...
I don't know... just little by litte. I've ALWAYS competed with boys... that's just how I grew up. I knew no different. Had no idea how 'off' that actually was... I got really good a sports and was completely pissed about the fact that, if I had been a male, I'd be a professional in something making millions of dollars to play a dam game... but that avenue wasn't open to me. So then I had to compete mentally... and I did... boy howdy. I can go head-to-head with just about any guy on the planet and be completely confident in my abilities.... pound for pound.
But that does NOTHING for a healthy R. NOTHING. Screws it up rather bad, quite honestly. But girls of my generation were encouraged to step up and compete... for that was the only way you would ever be treated equally.
WRONG. WRONG, WRONG, WRONG.
I don't know... one day, I woke up and noticed I wasn't angry anymore. I WANTED to figure out this whole female thing... I WANTED to learn how to be soft and gentle and feminine... loose the hard edge. I started reading more and more about male/female attraction... trying things out... noticing the different responses from men I was getting... trying again... failing here... succeeding there... and thinking to myself... "BF is really onto something, here."
Only until yesterday did I have a name for the very SIMPLE cause. It usually is simple, you know. So simple you can't see it for the life of you. Sexual abuse is a very complex issue. Very. And the fact that after yaers of dealing with it I still had... something in me that wasn't jiving, to me said... I haven't hit bottom yet.
And as soon as that popped out of my mouth... and all the different successes I've been having recently on being really good at being a woman... did it all just 'click.' Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
Quote: Is this change in your anger due more to not being around an abusive husband or is it due to you becoming more independent and self sufficient?
I have always been incredibly independent and self-sufficient... and I'd say that has been a big part of the problem. I've been TOO independent and self-sufficient. I will even go so far as to say that my behavior, more than likely, contributed a great deal to the abusive situation... for I was always competing... like having two alpha males in the same territory. MY behavior was clouding the issue... and because I was not aware of it... I couldn't change it... I couldn't back off without feeling I was losing somehow.
That's not to say that my H and I were well suited. I don't think we were, and knowing what I know now, I still would not go back. But to give the devil his due.... I was 100% responsible for my half of that M failing. And I continue to find, each day... what I could have done different.
Quote: You’ve got such great insight into your emotions and issues, I am wondering why this whole issue has escaped you and why you have come to see it know now?
I don't know, Cobra. I guess because I was finally in an atmosphere after H and I split where I felt 'safe' enough to let down my guard, I could actually HEAR what someone was trying to tell me. I've grown a lot as a person... I'm not so defense anymore that I can't own my mistakes... I don't feel a need to defend myself, make excuses, blame someone else... I had no idea what I was doing. None. NONE. I always thought the men in my life were the issue... and they may have contributed... but... not like my outright rejection of all things feminine. The answer has always been with me... inside of me... just could never, ever see it. Only until I was brave enough, have enough confidence to try it (meaning being who I am) a different way did I see that there might actually be a more efficient, more successful way of expressing who I am... and how that might affect how I relate to others... especially men.
And the difference I've noticed is not just with men... but with darn near everyone with whom I come into contact... men, women, children... and all I can tell you is... the anger is GONE. I didn't realize it was ever there, really, until it wasn't... make any sense? I certainly noticed it... and I couldn't quite figure it out at first... I just knew something was missing... and I didn't really miss it all that much... and then of course, Corri the curious, had to figure it out what IT was, and why, and how, etc., etc... and you know the drill...
RE Corri I'm so NOT jealous of men anymore... not angry at them, not trying to compete with them, not trying to one-up them, be as smart as them, or as strong as them, or.... ANYTHING. I see men and the whole male/female thing in such a different light, I can't even express to you how much I've taken myself by surprise……….
I had no idea what a joy and a pleasure and a wonderful privledge it is to be a woman.... and in knowing THAT, how loving and giving I can be to a man.... in being a woman, how wonderful I can make a man feel about being a man………………
Anger and resentment, to me, is the root of all evil, for it, is the root of stress. Of course I have to give myself a wee break here because I never truly understood what I was angry and resentful about...
Oh my goodness, you guys, I can't even begin to tell you what a whole different world has opened up for me. I barely know what to do first... as long as I don't chip a nail while doing it, kwis?
<giggle>
Listen up, HD, because I think your W may have the same syndrome. I don't think your wife hates men... I think your wife hates women, I think she doesn't like being a woman, doesn't KNOW HOW to be a woman... has no clue
Corri, the above is wonderful information.
I see not angry at them, not trying to compete with them, not trying to one-up them, be as smart as them, or as strong as them, or.... as a primary issue in our M.
I never saw some of BB's resentment statements about men in a light as having to do with her disliking some women, but your comment to HD makes sense.
I just can't get over this.... no wonder. No fcking wonder....
I see not angry at them, not trying to compete with them, not trying to one-up them, be as smart as them, or as strong as them, or.... as a primary issue in our M.
I never saw some of BB's resentment statements about men in a light as having to do with her disliking some women, but your comment to HD makes sense.
I have to tell you, Lou, I have been putting a TON of brainpower behind this one.
Cobra asked me why he thought I could see it now, as opposed to some other time in my life... I think it is a combination of things.
First of all... the thing that really got me going on this was when BF said to me in some long ago and far away post to me... "Corri... you need to learn how to be a girl."
Well, right out of the gate that pissed me off. As I think about it and wonder why... why did that statement piss me off... I gradually came to the conclusion... that I had a disdain for girls. Why the HE!! would I even WANT to be a girl? The label, 'girl,' to me... was a put-down. A childish, simpering, wimpy, whining, pouting, stomp-your-foot, b!tchy, manipulating version of a 'can't grow up and think for yourself,' type of woman. I mean, it took me a long time to realize I was INSULTED by his statement... let alone figure out why. And as you read this... is there any place in that statement that would leave room for me to be angry at men? No. I was just pissed I wssn't one, and my jealously and resentment over that fact grew and morphed out of control over my life-time because I didn't even KNOW it was there.
Isn't that stunning? Startling?
Is there one thing there, in my mental image, that is positive about being a girl? Not one thing.
And then I had to start thinking, once I realized that... "where in the heck did I come to THAT conclusion?
Well... let's think about Cobra's recent post about how his daughter reacted to her lower braces. Sorry, Cobra, but to me, that does not embody female. That is female gone wrong. And I thought every womean on the planet was 'female gone wrong.' (And quite honestly, I think you can help her nip that in the bud, without being harsh or cruel... but, that is my opinion.... and one I will hold to myself unless asked to expound. No offense to you, whatsoever.)
Lou, I think your wife is pleasure deprived. She has no clue what pleases her, other than her pets... and she sticks with that, because that is what she knows... and she feels no pressure from her animals.
I think she sees sex as a performance issue, an obligation to the M... and therefore, cannot get to the whole 'pleasure' part of it. She may see it as something she 'owes' you as a wife, not something she shares with you as a partner... and even if she could wrap her mind around being a partner... she still has no idea how to approach sex as a partner, and not as a performer.
Just a guess on my part. But I can tell you... as I have shifted my POV... I can't even begin to tell you how differently I see the world, and how I would go back and change so many things.... it would have made my life so different... from being a daugther, sister, mother, wife... co-worker... just darn near everything.
Almost makes me sad. But not quite, because... well... there is no use beating myself up over something I did not have the ability to see... to do a Mojo analysis... why would you ever flog and beat a blind man for not being able to see? What does that do?
But. Thinking of how BF helped me... and how the current man I am dating has given me ample opportunity to explore my femininity and ENCOURAGE it... I think you can do the same for your wife.
BF is very savvy, and I guess you would need to ask him if he'd take the same tact with BB as he did with me... but if your wife is exhibiting alpha male traits... I guess I would say to her, or ask her... in a non-commital, non-confrontation way... 'do you know how to be a girl?'
I don't know where BF is... I think he might be able to help you here a bit more than me... I certainly could broach the topic with your W... but... she's not here, and I don't know your W... so. You'll have to learn how to do this. You will have to learn how to subtlely teach or encourage your W to revel in her female side. 'Cause she isn't, and I can see it, plain as day.
