Quote: I am really hoping to see your H step up to this agreement. I'll bet it will be harder than he thinks. I'll bet, in fact, the hardest part will be the communicating directly. Does this agreement put him entirely in the driver's seat about sex or can you still negotiate for oral or a hj if he isn't interested? Whatever the agreement are you ok with it? Just wondering. It think it is a good thing to be aware of potential issues when hammering out an agreement. No agreement is perfect the first negotiation. That's for sure.
I totally agree with you. In fact, I think that in a way this agreement is just sort of a way to get to a final equilibrium of sorts. If my H chooses to communicate about why he doesn't want to have sex rather than having sex with me, I will still have to consider my response. For instance, will I be happy with 2 weeks of hearing "I'm not going to initiate sex today because I'm just not in the mood."? Highly doubtful. Pretty much all I've actually agreed to is to not initiate sex myself if my H sticks to this agreement. My H was almost more suggesting than agreeing to the concept of more open communication so I'm fairly hopeful. I think he knows that I am in dead serious end game mode. He has been very attentive and affectionate since we had the discussion and we did have some pretty hot sex this weekend.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: If I consider the reasons why backsliding might happen it's clear to me that they would all be the direct or indirect result of me wimping out in some way, so I guess my main worry in that regard is that I'll discover yet another way in which I am a wimp and have to work through it.
Mojo, do you see how in this statement you are making yourself responsible for whether your husband keeps his side of the agreement?
I know what you mean-- you feel that it's up to you to enforce the agreement... but I want to point out the fallacy in your thinking. If he doesn't follow through, YOU haven't failed at anything. YOU are not a wimp. (I HATE that word, btw-- it's a word full of self-loathing). If he doesn't follow through, he has failed, not you.
Then you have the choice of whether or not to follow through on your boundary setting--- yeah, I know that's what you meant by being a "wimp"-- that you'll have carry out your threat. But just separate these two things in your mind: if he doesn't hold up his end of the agreement, it's not BECAUSE you have done anything wrong. You're taking too much responsibility for both sides of this thing.
Quote: I know what you mean-- you feel that it's up to you to enforce the agreement... but I want to point out the fallacy in your thinking. If he doesn't follow through, YOU haven't failed at anything. YOU are not a wimp. (I HATE that word, btw-- it's a word full of self-loathing). If he doesn't follow through, he has failed, not you.
I guess what I meant in part was that the reason that I didn't follow through with filing a few weeks ago was that I felt like I was a bad person for wanting to divorce him for sexual reasons. This lack of willingness to be the "bad guy" was a way in which I was wimpy, just like my insecurities about my appearance were a way that I was wimpy in the past. If my H violates this agreement I intend to file for divorce. I will not, for instance, approach him on a Thursday and say "Why didn't you initiate sex with me yesterday OR communicate with me about why you didn't" looking for explanations. I can't imagine an explanation that would be acceptable. However, as I go forward with the process of filing, I expect that I will encounter situations in which I will react in ways that I can't anticipate. There may be a trigger that I will be unable to pull, for good reasons or bad. So, I guess I'm really not anticipating "back-sliding" so much as the potential for dealing with problems that I have not yet encountered.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: I felt like I was a bad person for wanting to divorce him for sexual reasons
Do you agree with me that the core issue is NOT only about sex?
If you're seriously thinking that you will be following through on the D stuff, I would strongly urge you to find yourself a counselor now to help you keep your head clear through this process. It doesn't have to be as expensive as you think it will be. You're getting ready to wade out into some deep waters, and you will need more anchoring than this board can provide...
I'm disturbed by this whole "wimpy" thing... we were talking about respect the other day-- your H's lack of respect for you, or at least, the way he TREATS you with a lack of respect. To call yourself "wimpy" when you're hurt or afraid or confused or simply unwilling to be brutal-- that's YOU showing a lack of respect for YOURSELF.
It's conditioning... you've picked up the bad habit of disrespecting yourself from him.
Quote: I'm disturbed by this whole "wimpy" thing... we were talking about respect the other day-- your H's lack of respect for you, or at least, the way he TREATS you with a lack of respect. To call yourself "wimpy" when you're hurt or afraid or confused or simply unwilling to be brutal-- that's YOU showing a lack of respect for YOURSELF.
Really, I'm just using the phrase "wimpy" to connote the opposite of what is meant by the phrase "having brass balls" as used on this BB. The more I understand the reasons for my previous lack of "brass balls" the less I am apt to disrespect myself. For example, I know that one reason I have avoided confronting my H in the past is my desire to maintain a peaceful household for my children. However, my desire to protect my children in this way was a direct result of the fact that I grew up in a very un-peaceful household. Now that I can understand this fully, I can see that my previous "wimpyness" was really a sort of ignorance or blindness rather than an essential character trait. I am not my mother. I have a close loving relationship with my children and I would and will no matter what happens in my marriage or would have happened if I hadn't avoided conflict in earlier years. Probably the most dysfunctional thing about the dynamic between my parents was that my mother projected her anger at my father on to her children. I would never do this, nor would my H, so there is an irrational fear that I had which I had to recognize before I could overcome it.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Oh, I agree that he is tuned into my emotions but hyper-sensitivity is not the same thing as empathy.
I agree. And this is where I am in my M too. I need to step up to the next phase which is to show my W more empathy and compassion, which is why she complains that she does not show any compassion to me. But expecting her to go first is foolish (since she has never gone first on anything as it is too vulnerable and scary for her).
So I need to try and suck it up the best I can an offer empathy when I really feel like throwing her a roundhouse kick. Sometimes I can make the “shift” (as Hairdog calls it) and sometimes I can’t.
However, my desire to protect my children in this way was a direct result of the fact that I grew up in a very un-peaceful household. Now that I can understand this fully, I can see that my previous "wimpyness" was really a sort of ignorance or blindness rather than an essential character trait.
Lil, not to pre-empt your discussion, but I think I also see what is bothering you. Is it this renewed resolve in Mojo to stop the passivity, take action and file for D if necessary? This bothers me too since I do not in any way believe Mojo is at the point of D. I think SHE thinks she is, but until you walk up to the brink, I’m not sure the full impact of D can really hit you. That is part of what my wife and I learned earlier this year. Some of the D talk is self empowerment, some is ultimatum threatening to regain control, some is fantasy about the life after D.
But once you open that box, you must be ready to deal with whatever comes out. It seems to me Mojo, that you are making some good progress, and assuming that any stalling which might occur can only be resolved by D is a little extremist thinking. I just wonder how clearly you have differentiated this new found assertiveness to overcome your “wimpiness” to your H versus lingering frustration toward your mother for the years of “wimpiness” you felt you had to endure under her. Don’t punish your H for what your mother did, otherwise you will have become your mother.
Cobra, I agree that Mojo is not at the point of D yet... in fact, you kind of read my mind, because I had been about to post something to that effect and then I erased it.
Mojo, I don't think D is the next step... but I think it's appropriate to recognize that there may be a D at the end of the path.
And maybe when you call yourself a wimp, what you're really saying is that "I don't have the guts to stand up for myself because I'm afraid to put my foot on a path that might lead to D."
You're like the guy/gal who is convinced that when he goes in to ask his boss for a raise, not only will the boss turn down the raise, the boss will say, "If you don't like it, then clean out your disk right now and leave." You believe that you can't even go in and ask for a raise unless you're prepared to quit that day.
Mojo: do agree that this is about MORE than sex/sexual frequency/HD/LD?
I see what Cobra and Lil are saying as a "one step at a time" sort of idea. Take things in small, doable chunks. Don't worry about D right now. Worry about doing your part as a spouse and wait and see if Mr. MJ will do his. He just may.
Quote: But once you open that box, you must be ready to deal with whatever comes out. It seems to me Mojo, that you are making some good progress, and assuming that any stalling which might occur can only be resolved by D is a little extremist thinking. I just wonder how clearly you have differentiated this new found assertiveness to overcome your “wimpiness” to your H versus lingering frustration toward your mother for the years of “wimpiness” you felt you had to endure under her. Don’t punish your H for what your mother did, otherwise you will have become your mother
When I first started Schnarching my H, one thing he said to me was "I'm actually kind of relieved that there is something that would make you want to leave this marriage.". My desire to be just the opposite of my mother made me so wimpy that I erred on the side of neglect thereby "spoiling" my marriage. I know that you guys are worried that I will go into a sort of reactionary "overkill" with my thoughts of divorce and there is probably something valid in that. However, I have to say that my H is actually happier and my marriage is actually better the more demanding that I am and the more that I stand up for myself. Obviously, somebody who takes the stand that they deserve to have sex and is willing to take risks in order to get it is more sexy than somebody who is unwilling to take that stand or risk. But, I see your point. I'm so unused to standing up for myself that it's hard for me to see what tools I might have at my disposal that aren't quite at the nuclear bomb level of filing for divorce. For instance, the fact that I've been giving my H the "cold shoulder" lately is quite novel behavior on my part. I was amazed that it was so effective. Perhaps I should think of a consequence for the potential violation of our sexual agreement that wouldn't be so earth-shattering. How about if I tell him I'm not going to cook for him for a week or until we do have sex if he violates our agreement? - LOL
I should add here that I really think that he is motivated to go along with this agreement. There was nothing at all grudging in his behavior. In fact, I am the one who put in the stipulation that he could cancel on me if he was willing to communicate openly. He was willing to simply commit to the sex wholeheartedly.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
