Quote: Your sexual "problems" are a manifestation of much deeper issues. If you left, it wouldn't be for sexual reasons alone. If your husband adored you, treated you with unfailing kindness even when he was mad or unhappy with you, if he was a fountain of affection, and held up his end of the household basically no matter what... there wouldn't BE any sexual issues.
Okay, give me that guy's phone number and I'll file tomorrow. (I'm trying to be funny in a sad way here, not trying to be flip.)
Quote: Caring, feeling like you care, acting like you care-- NONE of these things is the same as fusion.
I do know this. I should have said that his "crushed" look made me feel like I care AND made me feel like I would be a bad person if I divorced him and the part where I felt like a bad person was the fusion.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
I was reading an e-mail from FlyLady the other day. She wrote that she started cooking breakfast for her husband and then became distracted. She then realized that she might have forgotten to start the coffee and was hit with a wave of anxiety. Then she remembered that she was no longer married to her ex who would get angry with her for being absent-minded and her new husband would simply start a pot of coffee himself if he noticed that she forgot. This e-mail hit a chord with me because I think that there is a similar level of anxiety that I experience in my relationship due to my H's critical nature but it's almost like I've become accustomed to it, as though I accept dealing with this anxiety as part of the work I have to do in this relationship. For instance, on the day that I told myself that I was going to file for divorce I went to the grocery store. I started shopping in my usual mode when suddenly I realized that I no longer had to deal with all my H's picky preferences or worry that I might be taken to task if we ran out of paper towel etc. etc. etc.. and it was a real feeling of relief.
Sometimes when I'm trying to think positively about my relationship I remind myself that I like taking care of people. That is why I liked the Truman Capote quote that I added to my signature. So if I'm at the grocery store and I'm thinking about what my H might enjoy eating for dinner I'm being caring. If I'm at the grocery store and I'm double-checking my list to see if I forgot anything but not feeling anxious I'm just trying to be responsible about doing the chore of shopping. However if I'm at the grocery store and I'm worried about getting flak if I buy the wrong kind of coffee or forget the paper towel then that is a problem.
How do I solve this problem? It is clear to me that I can't become a perfect person who never forgets the paper towel. So, do I do what FlyLady did eventually which was to tell herself that she was in an emotionally abusive relationship and get out? Do I see my anxiety as a sign of fusion and try to find some solid ground I can stand on (perhaps by comforting myself with the sort of mental checklist I made in my earlier post which in any situation is just my nerdy (nerdy because I take comfort in objective standards) way of telling myself that maybe I'm not perfect but I'm certainly "good enough") when my H vents?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Here's my other thought. In the olden days when my H would act like a sh*t to me my typical reaction would be to in some way or another ask him "What's wrong?". Whatever was wrong almost never had anything to do with me. If I think like Cobra , I would say that his bad behavior towards me has more to do with his fusion with his father than his fusion with me. IMO his anxiety which he vents on me is usually due to something related to work and his relationships with other men. The reason he is apt to do things like flip out and quit a job or tell a cop to "f*ck off" is that he is overly sensitive to signs of disrespect from other men because his father was a cold, withdrawn bastard when he was growing up and didn't give him much attention or affection (the sad thing is that his father has really mellowed with age and would really like to have a closer relationship with my H but it's just like that "Cat in the Cradle" song). Therefore, I end up being the dog who gets kicked just because she's in the way in the kitchen when my H is trying to get ready for work. In fact, I would say that my H's primary motivation for working on our marriage (and to give him credit he has been working on it lately) is that he doesn't want to feel like a failure. The ego blow would be worse than any loss of Mojo in his life.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: So if I'm at the grocery store and I'm thinking about what my H might enjoy eating for dinner I'm being caring. If I'm at the grocery store and I'm double-checking my list to see if I forgot anything but not feeling anxious I'm just trying to be responsible about doing the chore of shopping. However if I'm at the grocery store and I'm worried about getting flak if I buy the wrong kind of coffee or forget the paper towel then that is a problem.
I find that I slide easily from the caring part (I bet W would like to have this tasty dish for dinner) to the anxious part (but she will likely say something about why I didn't make the zucchini, and how I might as well throw it out because it's one day past "edible" and what a waste...) and that so much of my energy is stuck in the fusion area of "how to please her" or, more realistically, "how to avoid her criticism." Of course, the deal is, she's going to be critical anyway, or she's going to be critical about something I didn't foresee, or, there's even a chance that she won't be critical at all, and all this anxiety, in any event, isn't helpful to me or to the relationship. Maybe I'll save the rest of that thought for my thread, but I guess the takeaway is that our anxiety about how they will react is not good for us.
One more comment: the scene in the grocery store where you realized that you didn't have to deal with your H's "picky preferences" is one of the first concrete examples I've heard from you about your divorce fantasies. Aside from your occasional mention of "Hank," this feeling in the grocery store seemed much closer to reality. I have been thinking, lately, about how "divorce fantasies" are so beguiling and dangerous.
Once you've "popped the cherry" and told your spouse that you want out, or that you're considering leaving them; it just gets easier and easier to go down that road. You've just given a name to your frustrations, and have therefore given the concept a place in your relationship. There's no real way to get rid of it now; the concept has been named, the taboo broken, the subject broached. It's like the difference between thinking you want to kill someone, and then actually going out and buying the gun. It's sitting right there in your nightstand, ready to be pulled out at a moment's notice, without too much thought...because the threat of divorce, once made, has usually come after lots of inner thought, just like the decision to buy the gun. It's now a part of your arsenal and you can pull it out at any time.
The reality is that divorce sucks like the worst of all possible suckitude that you can imagine. I don't have many regrets about leaving the person that is my ex, but I have great regrets on the many repercussions that have resulted from it. Is my quality of life better? In most respects, yes, but sometimes I wonder if the increase in quality is great enough to justify the swath of destruction the divorce caused. My kids are still having to deal with it, as am I.
Man, I gotta get some work done... my advice is to never mention filing again, unless you're already gone.
First, about the shopping. I think your insight is a good one, but the solution of whether to get out of an abusive relationship seems black and white. Why not talk to your H about what he needs from the store, and even get him to do some of the shopping. He may find that he forgets to buy things even more than you.
[BTW, in the spirit of public service, everyone knows I do the grocery shopping and it IS a pain to remember everything to buy. I’ve tried shopping lists but sometimes I miss something or don’t know where to find it. A while back I bought a Palm Treo cell phone which is basically a Palm Pilot with a phone. I found a neat little FREE application called HandyShopper that allows you to create your shopping list, assign categories to items (such as meats, produce, dairy, etc.) and also aisle numbers (or whatever you else you’d like to assign). I check the item I need from a list sorted by category, then when I go to the store, I choose the list of selected items which sort by the aisle number in the store. If I don’t need anything in a particular aisle, I don’t go there. This saves me TONS of time. It takes a little effort to load your list, but there is a Excel spreadsheet program that allows you to create your list, then download it to the Palm. You can find it at some of the Palm software download sites like Palmgear.com. Now, back to the discussion…..]
As for your H’s FOO, I think it is VERY important to understand his issues, especially if he is not doing so himself. My wife think she has hers all figured out, therefore her anger issues can only be due to me. Wrongo! Even the counselor told me last night (in individual session) that she sees more and more that this is a MAJOR problem in our marriage and she would like to push into it further. It sounds like your H could have some of the same stuff.
My experience is that your H may have been too enmeshed with his father as a kid, but it is the effects of that enmeshment that is the cause of his anger and frustration at work and with other men. Enmeshed people have poor boundaries, poor sense of self esteem. The allow others to invade their space and feel walked on. Then they get mad at others for being too pushy, but if the incident were video taped, they would probably see that they themselves offered to do extra work, or accepted a request to do extra work, when all they had to do was say no.
My dad is like this. He is way too passive, even though my mom was quite successful in bringing out his aggressive side. I remember one time in high school we stopped at a convenience store for gas. He filled up then went in to pay. On his way out someone else had pulled up to the pumps. (At that time there were no automated credit card readers on pumps.) This guy shouted at my dad just as he came out of the store and asked him to turn around and tell the teller to turn on the pump….. and my dad did it!. When we got in the car, he seemed frustrated with himself for doing so, feeling like he was this guy’s servant. I remember thinking why the hell did he do that. I would have kept walking to the car and told the guy to go in and ask the teller himself.
Now my dad has his list of issues with his parents and it certainly influenced his personality and way of thinking, and this example is a direct consequence of his FOO, but it still has to do with what he wants to make of himself now, here, today. Understanding his FOO will help, but he’s then got to rise up and be a man, just like I think your H has to do.
I think you can help him, if you approach it right and don’t push too hard (or push too soft). Getting comfortable with your boundaries is a major step toward doing this. Don’t accept blame for his problems – throw them back on him to solve. Stop serving if it is not appreciated. If your acts are appreciated then service DOES show you care. If they are not appreciated, then you may be doing them in the hopes that he realizes you care. That makes it your issue since you are trying to gain validation and acceptance. If he does not appreciate it then must not be that important to him and it seems like a waste of your energy and a source of frustration.
Quote: Maybe I'll save the rest of that thought for my thread, but I guess the takeaway is that our anxiety about how they will react is not good for us.
The thing that struck me in the grocery store wasn't so much a realization that the anxiety wasn't good for me but just the bare fact that I was carrying around so much underlying anxiety. I didn't have a divorce fantasy about getting rid of this anxiety because I wasn't even conscious of the fact that it was there to get rid of until I told my H I was going to file. Hank wasn't so much a divorce fantasy as a coping mechansim that allowed me to hold onto myself when I was first Schnarching my H. Since Hank and Stuart (how could you forget Stuart?-LOL) are masculine ideals that I created they are really aspects of my own personality.
Quote: Once you've "popped the cherry" and told your spouse that you want out, or that you're considering leaving them; it just gets easier and easier to go down that road. You've just given a name to your frustrations, and have therefore given the concept a place in your relationship.
Well, I would say that the concept already had a place in our relationship because my H has indicated that he wanted to leave many times in response to my demands/request/stated needs since I've been on this BB. The difference is that this is the first time that I actually was actively fed up enough to bring up the subject myself. Though I do agree that it has made a difference in my POV to be the one who is saying "I'm outta here." instead of hearing it.
Quote: my advice is to never mention filing again, unless you're already gone.
I guess I thought that I was. I had made my "To Do" list and everything.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: First, about the shopping. I think your insight is a good one, but the solution of whether to get out of an abusive relationship seems black and white. Why not talk to your H about what he needs from the store, and even get him to do some of the shopping. He may find that he forgets to buy things even more than you.
Well, my grocery shopping problems are just an example or metaphor for an overlying general problem in my relationship. I actually do have an organized shopping system. I plan menus once a week and ask for specific requests from family members at the same time. I transfer the ingredients onto a categorized template organized by grocery aisle. I also keep a clipboard with scrap paper in the kitchen where I can write down items to buy as they are used up or running low. Unfortunately since my H's complaints are, IMO, irrational this system isn't good enough.
Quote: Enmeshed people have poor boundaries, poor sense of self esteem. The allow others to invade their space and feel walked on. Then they get mad at others for being too pushy, but if the incident were video taped, they would probably see that they themselves offered to do extra work, or accepted a request to do extra work, when all they had to do was say no.
With my H it's more like he takes things that are impersonal and makes them personal. For instance, he wouldn't offer to do extra work and then complain about it but if he were assigned extra work he would assume that his boss was trying to dog him rather than any other possible rational explanation like staff levels were low or business was high.
Quote: Don’t accept blame for his problems – throw them back on him to solve.
I absolutely agree and this is what I've been tryin to do. The difficulty is when he obliquely transfers the problem onto me in a disrespectful way. By analogy, if a guy is cranky because he has a bad relationship with his boss and he comes home from work and kicks the dog and says "Get out of my way fat dog." what can the dog rationally do besides consider whether or not she is indeed fat and whether or not she should find a better kitchen in which to hang out?
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
With my H it's more like he takes things that are impersonal and makes them personal.
Isn’t this what boundaries, self esteem and knowing your core values are all about?
By analogy, if a guy is cranky because he has a bad relationship with his boss and he comes home from work and kicks the dog and says "Get out of my way fat dog." what can the dog rationally do besides consider whether or not she is indeed fat and whether or not she should find a better kitchen in which to hang out?
Your question seems to me that you accept the premise that he has the right to make such a statement in the first place. That means you immediately own his issues. Then you squirm around trying to find a way to deal with it when you never should have owned it in the first place. It’s like you can’t see the forest for the trees.
Tell him such a remark is disrespectful, you will not stand for it, he doesn’t like it when you make such remarks to him, that you think he is projecting his own frustrations onto you and you are not going to be his whipping boy any more, and that he needs to be a man and assert himself when needed at work and stop bringing the crap home.
Quote: Well, I would say that the concept already had a place in our relationship because my H has indicated that he wanted to leave many times in response to my demands/request/stated needs since I've been on this BB.
My point was precisely that this was YOUR cherry...the first time that YOU had crossed the line. Yeah, he may have crossed that line before, and done so many times since, but the dynamics of the R are forever different because you did it this time.
Now you're both playing with the same cards. The challenge is to never pull the Divorce card again. Unless, of course, you're out. I guess I didn't realize you'd gone as far as a "to do" list. (Of course, my "to do" list may have more significance to me than to the average person.)
, I would say that his bad behavior towards me has more to do with his fusion with his father than his fusion with me. IMO his anxiety which he vents on me is usually due to something related to work and his relationships with other men. The reason he is apt to do things like flip out and quit a job or tell a cop to "f*ck off" is that he is overly sensitive to signs of disrespect from other men because his father was a cold, withdrawn bastard when he was growing up and didn't give him much attention or affection (the sad thing is that his father has really mellowed with age and would really like to have a closer relationship with my H but it's just like that "Cat in the Cradle" song). Therefore, I end up being the dog who gets kicked just because she's in the way in the kitchen when my H is trying to get ready for work. In fact, I would say that my H's primary motivation for working on our marriage (and to give him credit he has been working on it lately) is that he doesn't want to feel like a failure. The ego blow would be worse than any loss of Mojo in his life.