Okay, I shall ellaborate... and you all can correct me...or... redirect where appropriate.
In the dance between men and women, this is how I see it.
A woman rules in the department of kissing. A man may initiate a kiss, but if a WOMAN is present, a woman will come to the forefront and lead the dance. A girl will let a man lead in kissing, and it will fizzle. A woman will step up and the kiss will sizzle.
A man will then trail down a woman's throat. And she will let him. A girl will giggle and back away. Doesn't mean a woman can't give a throaty laugh.
A man will move, step by step, to gauge a woman's reaction. A woman will begin to loose herself, and let it happen. A girl will freeze up at each step of the way.
When a woman trusts that a man knows what he is about, she flings herself, abandoned, like a girl, into the feeling.
A man will ask, what do you like? A woman responds, telling him, and a girl reacts to his efforts.
If a man pleads or demands, what do you like, a girl will respond, if at all, and the woman dissapears, for the man seeks a mother, not a mate.
A girl will touch, tentatively. A woman explores, gauging.
A woman uses her girl for fun and adventure, and a girl uses her woman for guidance. A woman subtley suggests, but a girl will never initiate.
If a woman is dealing with a boy, all of the above will never happen. She must first find the man, and then let the girl come out to play.
I dunno. That's my take on it. I think there is more... but I'm feeling a bit insecure on my feelings on this, so you all chime in.
so as not to hijack its been moved moved Lil do you see the difference between this book, 'The power of sexual surrender'
and Mama Gena's Ideas?
IMO Mama Gena, understands the behaviors that men find attractive, but she is USING them from a fear and CONTROL position.
There is no doubt that men respond to the specific ideas, but her encouragement to weild them as a weapon, which is how I read it when I scanned one of her books a while back...it will not come of congruent in that case.
Its like using Schnarch's ideas on boundaries and differentiation to break up your marriage.
I dont feel any acceptance or appreciation in Mama Gena's delivery. I see disdain and artificial superiority.
Corri, I think you are both right and wrong as it concerns LD men.
Once I stopped the henpecking, H did indeed step up to the plate with his desire. I am thrilled to see it. However, the frequency is slipping. It seems that I can either have a horny guy who will ML every 4-5 days or a guy who will perfunctorily do his duty every other day or so. I have chosen--after having tried it both ways, and tried to control the situation in my favor, unfortunately--the former.
In addition to that, I find it increasingly hard to 'act like a girl' in the interim days when he's not 'acting like a boy'. (or insert man/woman in there, whatever) On the On Days when he's horny, he's all man and I'm all woman. On the interim days, we sorta drift. He's not leading, I'm totally d-o-n-e with my leading attempts. So we flounder around until his natural horniness gets the best of him and we start the cycle again.
I don't find it very inspiring but, at the same time, I am so glad, thrilled, elated to be done with the violent ups and downs that I have embraced it anyway.
Quote: I meant make it worse in the sense that it would make her more HD, because of anticipation, variety, not knowing what to expect and the satisfaction women derive from being man handled and opened up. If it would have been vanilla/predictable, it would wear off sooner maybe
Oh, I don't know if that would be true. Vanilla sex in response to my HD might make me more HD because I wanted Triple Chocolate Fudge and all I get is Vanilla.
Quote: I feel ND. I feel exactly the same way about sex/porn/stripclubs, etc. So boring. I think Im broken.
What's a nice boy like you doing in stripclubs? Those girls are just carnival barkers with T&A. I don't think the fact that you are bored with casual sex, porn and stripclubs means that you are "broken". I would say it was more indicative of the fact that you want to be "whole" and have your heart and your cock working in unison again.
Quote: oh yeah. wanted to say, are you holding the BB over your H's head like a club? At his age, or just being him, even if things are excellent between you too, he may not be able to do 8x a week.
No, just the opposite. I pretty much never discuss the BB with him though I really do try and stay on the same page on the BB as in real life in that I try not to just come here and vent about something and then not do anything about it or at least discuss it with my H.
I have to tell you that jokes about me wanting it 8x a week are sort of the opposite of amusing to me. The most I have ever requested of my H is fairly consistent sex around 2x a week with some attention paid to my preferences. He has NEVER met this IMO VERY reasonable demand. I have been consistently monogamous with him for almost 19 years and in that time period:
1) We have had sex more than once on the same day at most half a dozen times.
2) We have had sex more than twice in the same week maybe 10 weeks out of the nearly 1000 we've been together.
3) We have definitely never had sex 5x in the same week and maybe not even 4x. Not even on our honeymoon.
4) For the vast majority of our marriage we had sex less than 2x a month and I had to initiate and/or throw a fit in order to get it that often.
The reason that we have had all sorts of pretty hot, pretty raunchy sex and watched too much porn is that I have constantly been trying to suggest or solicit from him ideas for sexual variety that might appeal to him in order to increase the frequency. I even once suggested to him that I'd be willing to do the kind of strap-on scene that you indicated would be way over your kink line after we saw it being done in an old porn movie from the 70's. (I am divulging this piece of info partially in order to explain that the kinky "line" that my H wanted me to say was MORE kinky than a strap-on scene in my book.) Granted, all of this may have been a big mistake but IMO it was kind of the natural course of events when you have two non-prudish partners one of whom is much more LD than the other. I should add here that most of the preferences for sexual variety that I bring up are dismissed by my H as being "chick-stuff". The main reason that I do consider my H to be a good lover is the same reason he is a good pianist -gifted hands and creative improvisation. I am thoroughly frustrated with him as a lover due to his unwillingness to play at all frequently or in response to my requests or many songs that I request.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Corri- I totally get what you are saying about letting the man take the lead. I totally agree. I NEVER acted the way I do ( or really the way I feel like I have to) in my marriage when I was single. I was sexually active for 7 years and had around a dozen partners before I was married and I don't think I ever directly propositioned a man for sex during that time period. I did do some rather dorky things like dress semi-sluttily and put suggestive music on my stereo on occasion but usually I just "showed up" and counted on my partner's testosterone to do the rest. Granted, I've rarely said "No" to requests for sex from men I was already sleeping with (though I did say "No" to tons of requests from men I hadn't already chosen to sleep with since I lived on a beach in high school and I worked at a party store in college )but the only time I can remember being sexually rejected by a man before my marriage was the one time I went out dancing with a guy who I didn't know was gay.
P.S. Yes, I am feeling angry again. G*d damn it.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: An LD man... different story. He wants to lead... but you already do. He wants to be the aggressor, but you already are. He wants to please you... but you've already mapped it out for him.
I'm sorry I was in a cr*p mood and a hurry when I replied to you yesterday. Sometimes I think I do a poor job communicating how things work or what is really going on in my relationship even though I write way too much on this BB. I got angry because it isn't really the case that I am all that sexually demanding or even assertive in real life except in the sense that I feel like I've had to become assertive about asking my H about what he might like or simply initiating the sexual act somehow or another. I mean "Don't give a man directions in bed" was like the second rule about sex I read in Cosmo when I was 14. I understand exactly the way in which I would s*ck in bed if I didn't follow that rule. I am much more blunt about what I like sexually on this BB than I am in real life because I'm NOT trying to attract any of the men on this BB. I talk here like I would talk with a couple of old girlfriends after a couple drinks or as if I was trying to be a low rent Dr. Ruth. Also, I didn't come into my marriage with a fully laid out map of my sexuality. I have tried a lot of things with my H that I never tried with another man, and though I might be the one to ask "Would you like to take a trip to ...?" He would almost always be the one to drive the car and I would just mostly be like "I am really enjoying the scenery on this trip" not like "You're driving too fast. Watch out for that deer.". I enjoy sex mostly because I am deeply responsive not because I am very assertive about what I like. Also, I'm constantly changing or growing or learning more about what I do like. For instance, recently my H and I were having an encounter and we were just sort of doodling around in a "do me" "do you" way. He was laying propped up on the bed and I was on my hands and knees perpendicular to him with my head over his torso being manually stimulated by him in doodling fashion. I had just been doodling about with his parts in some way myself. He reached down and gripped the base of his penis and pulled it down so that it was pointed right at me. Something about this action shot me right from level 6 arousal to level 10+ and we finished each other off simultaneously in about 10 seconds. My point here is that I had no clue that I was likely to be so aroused by the sight of a penis being pulled down to a right angle as I was hovering over it. Even if I had wanted to I couldn't have given my H directions to get to that place and I wouldn't be inclined to give him directions to get there again because it was his obvious desire manifested in the action that turned me on, not the details of the action. The action communicated to me "Look how hard my c*ck is. I really want you to suck it." and that message of male arousal is what turned me on.
I think there is a dynamic in my marriage in which my H wishes I was more submissive but I really think it has more to do with the borderland between sex and our relationship outside of sex than with what actually goes on between us sexually. As anyone who has followed my saga knows my H is more likely to say honest things even if they are cruel than most people. He has never indicated that he would like me to be less assertive about what I like sexually. In fact, I would say that he is pretty confident about that sort of thing. For instance, fairly recently he made a clumsy move (very unusual for him) while man-handling me and I said "Ouch!" (very unusual for me-LOL). He just laughed and apologized. Thus, I would also say it is true that whatever sexual anxiety my H has is also largely confined to the borderland between actual sex and our life outside of sex. He really does think I am great in bed (as hard as that is to believe) and therefore he really does believe that he is great in bed. The two things can't be mutually exclusive. Unfortunately, he also really does believe that I suck at arousing him into a sexual frame of mind because I am too fat or too arrogant about not being fat or too unfashionable or not submissive enough or not assertive enough or something. Therefore, he has a hard time being aroused around me. Because, once again, the two can't be mutually exclusive. The odd juxtoposition of mostly positive feedback between the two of us during sex or even during conversations about specific sexual activities (except for my H's "chick stuff" comments )and mostly negative feedback between the two of us around the issues of initiation or initial arousal is what has driven me into the stark raving lunatic I'm sure I seem to be on this BB.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Rambling on: It's not even the case that I'm all that domineering in real life. I kind of act tough on this BB. My H has more problems with the fact that he can't control me than that I dominate him. It's not that he feels like I am trying to make him submit so much as he feels like I don't submit to his control enough. An analogy that I used early on when I joined the BB is that I am like Dennis the Menace to his Mr. Wilson.Also, when he is feeling affectionate towards me he calls me "Bunny". When he is annoyed with me he addresses me by my full name calling me "Jennifer" rather than "Jenny" in classic paternal style. Another boyfriend I had long ago also called me "Bunny" and another called me "Fluff" so that might give some indication of about how threatening men find me in real life . I am also the kind of woman whose teenage children frequently pat her on the head saying things like "Silly Mom.". When I told my LD sister (who kind of reminds me of you, Corri. She's a former super-executive turned super-mom) that my H said I wasn't submissive enough she just started laughing and laughing and said "If ____ thinks that you are a ballbuster that just goes to show that he doesn't have much experience with women.". I almost think that it is the case that my H wants to believe that I am a "ball-buster" for the same reason that he wants to believe that I am "too fat". These are both commonly offered societaly acceptable reasons for a man not to be turned on by a woman. My H said "Either it is your looks or your personality or I am a complete loser.". Thus, either I am too fat or too bossy/b*tchy or he is a complete loser. He can't conceive of a fourth or fifth alternative. Obviously, I can't take a picture of myself in order to get you guys to validate that I am not a ballbuster the way that I might post a picture to validate that I am not fat. However, I will state for the record that it is actually the case that I err on the side of ball-coddling rather than ball-busting which is probably just as bad. I'm too much the wimpy good mom rather than too much the overbearing bad mom in my relationship with my H.
It is interesting that you suggested taking on the persona of "girl" rather than "woman" to me. The problem is that I can't remember back to a time when I wasn't sexual or at least sensual. I was never the sleeping maiden waiting to be awakened by the touch of her knight-like lover. I was the little girl who wrestled with little boys in the mud and didn't know why she enjoyed it so much. My first adventures with making out with boys took place in a fort in the woods when we were all still childish enough to build a fort. I lost my innocence with a group of other innocents. I learned sex by playing at sex, there wasn't a question of who was teaching whom. It is just funny to me to think back on it. It was like we assigned each other the roles of boyfriend/girlfriend while making out just like slightly younger children would assign themselves the roles of Mommy or Daddy while playing house. I think the reason why I took offense when Cobra once tried to link my early sexual activity with my dysfunctional FOO was that I really don't feel bad about my early experiences. It seemed sort of natural to me, maybe the sort of thing that would happen amongst adolescents who lived in a primitive tribe.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Quote: My H has more problems with the fact that he can't control me than that I dominate him.
This is exactly the problem my H has with me. He does not want to allow me to just be me and get on with it and doesn't quite believe that I am happy for him to just be him. Because I don't submit I am controlling.
I believe you and I Mojo are married to men who are angry at their mothers. We replace the mother figure and so they are angry at us. There is no logic, no rhyme or reason to it. The mother figure is hugely controlling in a small boy's life and unless they have an alpha father figure who dominates the mother then they will be forever angry. There is no escaping this, there is no kind of mother to aspire to being when we raise boys that would stop this from happening. A toddler/child must be cared for in a fairly controlling manner. A child of four cannot be let to cross the road on their own. Children must be put to bed at a decent hour and not fed nothing but sweeties. It's an important job and someone has to do it. Unless the boy sees an adult alpha male who is in charge of himself and not controlled by the female he can see no way out of this situation. So no matter how sweet natured a wife he ends up with he will still be angry at the controlling mother figure.
I also think there is an element of you don't want what you can too easily get. Your H has a sex-drive and he has great times in bed with you, but there is no element of uncertainty in his mind, no element of chase. He knows he can just get it on a plate whenever he wants it. The porn girls are intriguing because he can't have them.
Just thoughts - not sure where they lead
An encounter with my H last night (fairly typical). We are suffering a heatwave here (no a/c this is Britain). H and I lying naked on the bed as it is so hot. After 5 or 10 minutes just lying there I start to very lightly stroke H's arms and chest. He appears to appreciate this and starts to stroke me lightly too. Not touching anywhere errogenous but I can feel myself getting very aroused. I feel a strong desire to be "taken". This isn't happening, the action is not escalating in anyway. I do not escalate because I don't want to be the one to do so and I'm not sure he wants me to either. After a while I say "you really are tired aren't you". He agrees. I carry on stroking him but downscale it a bit, then leave off. 2 mins later H grumbles "I am tired but now you've got me all aroused". YAARRRGGGHHHH!!!! I just hate that so much. To me either you want it or you don't. If you have just said you don't then shut up and go to sleep, if you do well AS A MAN then it is your job to take it, not my job to give it to you.
Anyhow, I stepped up to the plate and we had a good time but that's not really the point.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
I am in total random talking to myself journal mode here. Please feel free to stop reading-LOL
I can't believe I had almost forgotten about my adventures at the fort. I have the tendency to date my sex life back to my first actual intercourse at 15 with a friend's 23 year old ski-bum brother but that is really wrong-minded. The whole summer I was 14 I was doing all sorts of sexual stuff with the gang at the fort. There was a rotating group of about 10 of us who used to hang out. Usually there would be a couple more boys than girls when we got together- LOL. We would sneak out of our houses at night. Somebody would usually have some weed (this was 1979 after all)or some booze absconded from the parents or begged off an older sibling. We would play cards or truth or dare or spin the bottle but one way or another it would always degenerate into sexual activity. The ringleader was one of the two boys who were my "boyfriends" that summer (not including the guy I made out with when I went on vacation with my family. His name was Rex so that meant that I was not a slut because the rule is that you are not a slut if you can remember the names of all the guys you made out with.-LOL). God, looking back on that experience it is so clear to me why I tend to prefer sex that has the emotional tenor of being fun and naughty. It's also clear to me why I never had the chance to develop much performance anxiety around sex and I can't imagine becoming LD anymore than I can imagine forgetting how to swim or ride a bicycle.
OTOH, my poor H didn't have sex until he was 22 and he told me that the first time he did it, he didn't enjoy it at all because he kept thinking "Can I do this?". The second time he tried to have sex with the same girl he couldn't get it up, undoubtedly due to anxiety, and she told him nicely that that was unusual. The second woman he had sex with was married and used him as a means of dumping her husband. The third woman he had sex with was someone I knew. She was very unattractive (which is one of the reasons I've always been mystified about my H's comments about my appearance. I am better looking by conventional standards old and chubby then this girl was in her early 20s) and my H said that was why he eventually broke up with her. So basically his sex life up until the point he hooked up with me was either non-existent or s*cky.
Maybe what I need to do is build a fort in our backyard and invite him out to play. I do have the advantage of legal access to liquor at my current age. I wonder where I can find another see-through-plastic windbreaker like the one my 14 year old boyfriend found so sexy .
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
)but the only time I can remember being sexually rejected by a man before my marriage was the one time I went out dancing with a guy who I didn't know was gay.
)and mostly negative feedback between the two of us around the issues of initiation or initial arousal is what has driven me into the stark raving lunatic I'm sure I seem to be on this BB. 
.