I always felt she was way out of my reach. If I ever did speak to someone like this I would be so uncomfortable and nervous, the experience would leave me drained I had similar feelings and experiences Cobra.
I found better rapport with girls who wanted to talk to me, who seemed interested in a two way conversation, ........... This of course was appealing to their mothering needs, but it was also appealing to my need to be wanted. Same here.
Cobra, I suspect that once someone like an extrovert woman gives enough, they expect something in return and anything we give (attention, gifts, love, companionship) is accepted at first, which makes the shy guy feel good, especially if in his FOO he was rarely good enough.
Let me know if anything does not make sense. It makes sense so far to define some of the problems, so what are the solutions?
If the neglected, good for nothing in the parent's eye kids still feel as if their W doesn't appreciate them, what is one solution towards feeling appreciated?
I know many guys know they are appreciated as a father but see some guys not feeling appreciated as a H.
Wow. Your post was brilliant. Utterly brilliant. Yes, yes, and YES.
Soak it up, Chrome. Combine it with this, from Bear:
Quote: As a woman raised to be a "good" girl, much of my life was spent feeling like sex was something that men wanted to take from me, or were waiting for me to give them. We never talked about sex when I was growing up except the idea was very clear that good girls don't. There were no PDA's between my parents. I was also raised to believe that to want or need anything for yourself makes you selfish. So, when I got to college and met a man I thought I loved, it was all about pleasing him. I didn't really allow myself to have fantasies. I could never come up with one when asked. I was too worried about what people might think of me. Got to keep up the appearance of good girl.
Like Corri says Wow! Incredibly accurate and revealing post.
All through Chrome’s sitch I have had massive empathy for Mrs Chrome. And guess what I have been doing exactly what she does, and exactly what I do with my H, and making MYSELF responsible for Chrome’s happiness by not telling him so.
Whether it is nature or nurture or a combination of the two, women grow up believing that they are responsible for the happiness of others. When they behave in a way counter to this then they are disapproved of. Maybe it is the nature of motherhood. It is the ultimate selflessness, so the survival of the species has engineered women who put their own needs aside to please others, it is common not just in humans for mothers to go without food so their offspring can eat.
A woman brought up in a household where those values have been further conditioned will initially find fulfilment in a “needy” mate. Chrome hate to hit you between the eyes with this one but you are needy. You hand responsibility for your happiness to your W. At first she felt honoured that you would do such a thing, but in your particular case (nasty FOO situation etc) it is something of a bottomless pit. Add into the mix toddler twins and a baby and where does that leave her?
The thing with needy children is that with time, effort, patience etc they grow less needy. And at some point the proud mother can look upon her grown child and think – wow! One of the things I do to help my children grow is stop responding to certain needs. When I realise they have got to a point where they should be able to manage something for themselves I put them in a position where they have to, I ignore their pleas and sobs and I say (kindly) it’s time you learnt to do it yourself, and they do, and their self-esteem grows with each new thing they learn to do for themselves.
My feeling is that Mrs Chrome’s is doing this to you. She is unresponsive to your needs because she is trying to help you to grow.
Chrome – you are a grown up man. You are responsible for your own happiness. If you look out at a beautiful spring day and all is right with the world you feel happy. If there is sudden shower you don’t feel pissed off at the weather for ruining your day. Think of your wife as a beautiful spring day. When you first got together she made you happy just be being who she is, not by anything she did. You then came to rely on the idea that she was the source of your happiness and had control of your happiness. She has no such control.
It used to be the case that by being her she made you happy. Now she hears you cry “I’m not happy – do something” and she doesn’t know what to do, she never did. She cannot do, she can only be.
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Sorry to hijack. Haphazard I see you are from UK. I'm trying to organise a get together for all UK DBers. If you are interested there is a thread in MLC that tells you how to contact me.
Me 43 XH 45 M 2.7.88 Divorce 7.10.09 Kids D20,S17 & D15
I agree that Chrome is very needy. I think he knows that all too well. But I differ with you in your implication that Mrs. Chrome is not. I believe she is every bit as needy as Chrome but expresses it in a different way. She has not detached from her family so her methods appear total different. Chrome has long ago realized that he needed to stand on his own two feet, that he could never get support from his parent. Mrs Chrome has never left her parents, and so has never fully committed to Chrome. She commit only to the extent her bond with her parents will allow. So I think she is just as needy and every bit as guilty for creating this situation.
Chrome,
Since we are discussing FOO, do you see that you two MUST have the same level of neediness? If you dated a girl who did not have such a need to mother, your neediness would have been smothering to her and you two would have broken up. But to your wife, your needs were just the right mix for her to feel comfortable. She was also just right for you. I suspect she portrayed a sense of security and stability to you. She had a warm, supportive family that called out to you. What you did not see was all the baggage and strings that created the appearance of her family being warm, supportive and inviting. Of course, she would never show that to you, just as you never told her about your abusive family, at least not early in the relationship.
Lou,
As for what Chrome should do with this knowledge… well I don’t have any magic answers. It all depends on how much of this FOO is affecting the relationship. That is an unknown and can only be discovered over time and through new problems in the relationship. This is why Schnarch calls marriage a growth building machine. Not recognizing how your FOO affects your actions keeps you from realizing you should even work on a particular issue.
Fran (Haphazard) just realized her on her thread that her H acts in an abusive and intimidating manner, and that similar experience in her FOO has prevented her from doing anything about this, much less realizing what a problem it is and how she has contributed to it. Doesn’t her new understanding now give her the opportunity to resolve this?
Only have a few seconds before I need to run out for a bit, but wanted to say WOW! for all the great commentary. I'll do a point by point response soon, but heartfelt thanks for your interest in helping me understand my situation and especially my W's POV.
I do want to say one thing in general, and willingly admit fault here. I don't think my problem is of being too needy. Maybe I am wrong. The things that I want in a R I think are pretty standard. Reading Harley's HN/HN book I can see that at least one major R expert agrees. What I want is a significant amount of QT together, a very open amount of affection, a mutually agreed upon level of sexual activity, and an obvious level of validation. I think my problem is that I wasn't NEEDY ENOUGH in the early M. Due to my extremely low self-esteem, I didn't feel like I deserved to be treated well and thus neither insisted on it, nor acted in ways to promote it (the alpha male thing). But as I have stated, I have awakened to the fact that I am a worthwhile person, I do have many qualities about me that are attractive and I don't deserve to be in a relationship that is well below the level of nurturing that most humans could stand. So I think being more insistent on having my needs met is not the problem. But that is JMHO of course.
I see the problem as two people who had NO IDEA how to make a marriage work, and who both just assumed things would work themselves out. We both had FOO problems, low self-esteem on my part, "good girl" repression on her part that kept us from openly discussing and working on the marriage effectively. That with a dose of strong conflict avoidance fostered the mindset that led to my EA. All it took was an attractive woman showing interest in me in ways I had never seen before.
Since then, I have been learning more about who I am and how I should act in a M. But I don't think it is really a problem of over-asserting my needs at this point. The problem has been one of mixed signals that have confused my W and not allowed her to build the trust in me needed to help break down her repression. I haven't talked much about the EA obviously, and I don't really want to here. I'll reserve that for my W, my C, and my MC so that I can be held responsible for my actions. But let me just say that my EA was not some giant orgy of fun going on behind the scenes while I avoided my W in every possible way. My EA was a rocky roller coaster that frankly flew off the tracks several times. So while I was trying to do many things right with my W, the ups and downs in the EA came through so strongly that frankly my W probably didn't know who was going to walk in the door in the evenings. So not only was I violating trust directly with the EA, I was also not presenting a consistent leading image to my W as to what sort of R I wanted us to have, which also damaged her trust of me.
So frankly I don't see my neediness as the main problem. I may be wrong and would definitely be willing to admit it if I am and change my actions accordingly. Remember though, when I for the first time complained about the neatness of the house a few months ago. She protested vehemently, but the next day the house was clean, she was in a good mood, and the following day we embarked on our first real extended passionate level of sexual activity in our marriage. She complains a lot about being too tired, but she asked for (and received) attention well into the night and early morning during that period. Again, maybe I am wrong, but I see being MORE direct about my needs, setting firm, obvious boundaries for them, and being MORE confident that having them met is good for our M will lead to a better R. In the past I have either sent no signals or very confused ones about my needs and that has led to the problems we have been experiencing.
Need I say it again ... JMHO
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
However, you know I think your W is highly sexually receptive, just repressed. You know when you behave appropriately, so does she. A womans HD/LD is not in absence to her perception of her H. Its because of it.
I want to believe this SOOO badly. That if I can just start acting the right way for a long enough period of time, then her inner sex kitten will just come out naturally without any direct prodding on my part. That would be the ideal situation anyway, CeMar would agree. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I understand why this is not a BELIEF inside of you yet. There is no 'acting' that will have success here. Radical honesty, and congruence are not 'acting'. They are being. The more they permeate every facet of your life, the better you will feel. Directness is a matter of perspective also. NOP was extremely direct. People do not respond well when they sense hidden agendas. A woman does not become a sexual kitten in the absence of a man with strong sexual presence. Now as to it feeling like prodding to her, or what your interpretation of direct prodding is, thats about you and your approach. A cattle prod approach can work, but its not my favorite choice. There is a lot of ...initiating and instigating..(like that better then prod) on my part.
Here is an analogy... a brand new shepherd has a lot of sheep. They dont know him. He has to work hard to keep them together and employ direct methods (dogs, his crook) to get them moving and keep them together. Then you have a shepherd that has been with his flock day and night for 10 years. They all know him, and all he has to do is sing out and start walking. He is still 'prodding', but it appears effortless. He has their trust, respect. If something happens... say a lightning storm, or wolves.. then he has to use the dog and crook again. wow I just got a 'feeling' of where I messed up. cool. I had been struggling with a comment GEL made about fighting for your woman... got it.. I have a serious problem with that concept...
I want to believe that my W does have a high level of sexuality and desire that is buried. I have seen glimpses of it.
If a man is unwilling to make steps to change his Wifes perception of him, he will have NO STATUS QUO CHANGE. If a woman wants to have a succesful M, it is her job to control her perspective.
These seem like potentially conflicting statements. Care to elaborate? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ahhh. yeah... I could see how you might interprete that Each statment was directed towards gender as a point that we are only in control of ourself, or able to change ourself to affect some change in the R.
The R is not all on the man. F's natural inclination is to scope out our insecurities. If they fixate or are unaware how to assist him when this happens, they are failing at their half of the M equation. For a man, if this is occuring, letting her know that this is not acceptable, would be radically honest. For a woman, every man has 1 or 2, and the likely hood of them going away slim and real slim. She can focus on what hes not and wear herself out trying, or she can try, while appreciating what he is.
So how are your efforts toward being trustable and radically honest going? I think thats a lot more important then your sexual presence right now.
Chrome, Hope you're having a good weekend with your family.
There is something that I'd like to say to you. I say this as someone who is trying to help so I hope you will take it in that spirit...
Ok, you said
Quote: Remember though, when I for the first time complained about the neatness of the house a few months ago. She protested vehemently, but the next day the house was clean, she was in a good mood, and the following day we embarked on our first real extended passionate level of sexual activity in our marriage. She complains a lot about being too tired, but she asked for (and received) attention well into the night and early morning during that period.
my question for you is this: Do you really think that asserting your preference for a clean house is what changed your wife that day? Is it possible that she, in her people-pleasing "good" girl thought process, was trying to change into what she thought you wanted her to be? I think if a real change had happened that day, it would have been sustainable. It sounds to me as if she was trying to be a good wife to you by becoming the sex kitten you want her to be. If that is the case, and I think it's a good possibility because I have BTDT, then the outcome was that you were happy with her performance and she eventually ended up feeling even more distant from you because it was not a real, from her heart, emotional, sexual connection. It was a decision to be more sexual whether she felt like it or not, for you and for the M. The fact that you were happy with it reinforced that sex is the most important thing you want from her. Then came the EA, right? Or at least her knowledge of it. So, she was reaching far outside her comfort zone and you were still going outside your marriage on some level. She probably felt defeated and resentful.
I also need to point out that a big stumbling block right now could be that she feels that by becoming more sexual/affectionate with you after you admitted to an EA, may feel like reinforcing bad behavior to her. Or it may feel awkward, as if it makes her seem desperate to keep you. And she might be which would also be scary to her. That would be making her VERY vulnerable and that would be difficult to do after a breach in trust. Your need for affection and her need for self respect may be in direct opposition with each other right now.
I also want to comment on something else you said...
Quote: I see being MORE direct about my needs, setting firm, obvious boundaries for them, and being MORE confident that having them met is good for our M will lead to a better R.
I absolutely agree! This is essential. However, when you talk about having your needs met for the good of the R, she is probably thinking the same thing...about her needs. You said that she doesn't have needs like you do...I call BS! I think that much like sexual fantasies, she does not allow herself to need much either. Stuff it down or handle it herself. It's a vulnerable place to be to need someone. If she senses that things are rocky between you already, then she probably won't be able to openly express her needs. OOOOH, and another BIG turning point for me was when I finally realized it was a NEED, not a WANT. Took me a LOOOOONNGGG time to get there. Good girls don't need sex, they allow it under the right circumstances if they feel they are not being used. It's really important for you to realize that she is not keeping that distance to punish you or pay you back. It's because women learn that men will do just about anything for sex. They will lie to them, trick them, put on a really good show, but many are insincere and only want one thing. It is hard to just switch off all those years of training. It can feel as if you are disrespecting yourself or being foolish. The key is to make sex into an extension of affection rather than the prize at the end. You may feel that it is already that, but your W might not. It will take a lot of trust, boundary setting for both of you and lots of communication. She wants you to lead but not by being pouty or aggressive or crass.
I also think it is vital that you and your W spend some alone time together on a regular basis. The more she buries herself in mommy mode, the more difficult it will be to get her back into wife mode. Plan something nice for you two to spend some time together, without sex being the end goal. Make the arrangements, get the sitter...don't make her make the plans. Whether it is a walk hand in hand or a movie, dinner out or a picnic, a couple hours volunteering somewhere or a concert...the point is to let her know that you want to spend time with her and know her on a personal level, not just a sexual level. She doesn't have much in her life right now outside the kids so help her expand her world a little, but with you by her side. My XH never understood that while he went to work and worked his admittedly stressful job, he was still out of the house, among people to talk with about something other than poop and elmo. AND, he got to leave his job at the end of the day. Even when you are home and helping (which it sounds like you do) she has still been in that same place for the last couple YEARS without much of a break. KWIM? When your W feels comfortable and confident in the knowledge that you care for her outside the bedroom, it will give her that much more confidence IN the bedroom.
Ok Chrome, that's all I've got for now. You really do seem like one of the good guys and I hope you know I am only saying what MY perpective was in MY experience. I don't think you are neccessarily too needy but rather that you are struggling with how far to push it when your needs are in opposition with her needs.
Bear
The voyage of discovery is not in seeking new landscapes but in having new eyes.
--Marcel Proust
