Fighting the Hard Fight

[karen1]

Gel,

I see your point. I am just looking at it from the perspective of my own personality. I sort of think that the more details I knew the harder time I would have letting go. Then again, it has never happened to me so I've never had to find out what I would need or want.

For Chrome, the reason I said to follow your C's lead is because YOUR personality already includes such self flagellation that if you told your S before you were armed with real understanding you might wind up taking away her need to be angry, to mourn, to do what she needs to do to get over things - when you beat yourself over the head how can she? And she may need to do some of that. So, I'm just saying, use your C's guidance on this so that when you deal with the issue with your W you know the difference between really being sorry and sympathy seeking from her. So that you know what you want/need from the marriage, what is non-negotiable so you don't play two sides to try to get what you need anymore. Chrome - you can do this.

Karen

[honeypot]

Chrome,
I must confess that it's getting harder and harder for me to read about your wife's shortcomings (what she is or isn't capable of) in light of the fact that you are not putting your emotional or physical energies into this relationship. You are aware that R's take two hard-working folks to be successful, right?

I see a situation where you are off doing your own thing (which includes EA's and PA's, never good for marital success), kinda holding your own participation in the M ransom until *she* wakes up and becomes what you want. And I see her doing the same, minus the EA's and PA's, but plus the mind numbage that happens when you consume your life with your children.

Isn't she merely following your lead, as wives are apt to do? You are not invested in this M in any way right now. If you think that she can't pick up on this, ask one of the betrayed spouses on this forum and see how much they 'knew' before they knew it.

[chromosphere]

HP

Please don't misunderstand the purpose of what I said earlier. That is merely my angst speaking, it has nothing to do with fault. If I didn't express my doubts, my fears and thoughts about the future, it would not be honest. And despite my mistakes in the past, I am trying to be honest. I do not categorize those doubts as shortcomings in my W, not at all. It is shortcomings on our R. BF taught me a lot about how I contributed to the lack of intimacy in our M prior to the EA. I am making an effort to correct those mistakes. I do see now though that everything I did was tainted because I did have a foot out of the door so to speak. My heart wasn't 100% where it should be. And you are right, without a 100% effort, the chances of turning the M around are severely diminished. What still plagues me is the fact that nothing I can do can change her. Even if I were to magically turn into the perfect H, she may never be able to get past the issues she has the prevent her from establishing intimacy. I am hopeful that the true cause has been me all along, in being a beta (sometimes omega) male prior to the EA, and then the EA itself. That if those flaws inside me can be corrected, she will finally feel confident enough to open her doors. I saw signs throughout this past year, and I have seen signs over the past couple of weeks as well. She asked me to do something the other night that I never thought she would even allow me to try a few months ago (yes, I validated her HEAVILY for it, hopefully not TOO heavily).

I do want to say that you saying I am not invested AT ALL in this M is a bit of hyperbole. I could list off all the things that I have done, from the affection I show her whether or not she reciprocates, to the gifts I give her, to the attempts I make to spend time with her (most of which she rebuffs in favor of the kids), to the things I do for her and my family, etc. But I think the point you are trying to make is well made. I have not been 100% invested, and that is what I should have been. And that is what I am trying to do now.

Anyway, the main point is that I was not trying to list my W's shortcomings, rather just expressing the angst that is in my soul. I am hopeful that if we can get past the fallout from the EA, that me being 100% invested, AND being knowledgeable about the kind of person I need to be to make this M work well, that we will have a M that will be more than just satisfying for the rest of our lives. But at this point, a little angst is not uncalled for, I just don't need to let it drive my behavior.

Thank you for your words and your perspective.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

Karen

You said what I was trying to say much more directly and eloquently. I need help emotionally in SO many areas, and one of them is dealing with another person's pain, especially when I am the cause. Part of the reason I am in the mess that I am in now is that I have never been able to deal with another person being emotionally distraught. I do all the wrong things when that happens. So letting an MC know the situation and helping me get my head on straight on how to deal with it does seem wise. Plus it can only strengthen me down the road, wherever that road leads. My W deserves the best I can give her, and I haven't been doing that. I can do it, with some help.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

Bear

"What work are you doing toward that right now?"

Continuing to see my C, taking AD's, and starting appts. with an MC.

I do know that finding that core of happiness has a lot to do with my self-esteem. So for now, I will just work to build that back up.

"When you want the sex kitten, what is the feeling you are trying to get from that? "

An interesting question. I guess it is that when I feel desire for my W, it is accompanied by a feeling of closeness, of emotional connection. I guess I just project that feeling onto my W, in the sense that if she is really into sex, then she must desire me, and hence she feels connected to me, which is what I ultimately want.

"What if you turned it around and kept the thought that you will be happy and looked for signs that prove that? The smallest gesture will then become hope for what could be instead of proof of what it isn't. Just a thought."

Point well taken. What gets me are those silent moments when I think too much. I think "man I am so happy that my W did X or Y", but that is followed by the thought "but that is still so far from where I want to be, can I get there?"

"That is confusing in itself but that's a story for another thread."

Feel free to share.

"scientific and logical, not the qualities to figure out relationships with!"

Like BF (and my C) used to tell me over and over again, you can't logical R's, feelings, and emotions. They are just the way they are. Sometimes I see that so clearly, like when I get angry over some rejection that my W has done, i.e. "how could she do that to me?". Then I start thinking of it as a "test" of my strength, and suddenly it isn't a problem anymore.

"I was always a "good" girl so good girls don't initiate, they just get swept away. To initiate and to want sex meant that you were slutty."

That is something I fear my W has too. It is encouraging though that there are people who have been able to defeat that mentality.

"I wish I could explain better the thought process that got me there but mostly it was a decision to act loving toward my husband. I realized that the closeness I craved came after the ML sometimes instead of before, and that it was ok that his needs were first on the list."

I'll bet I'm not the only one on this board who would be interested in hearing more about this change. If you feel like talking more about it, please do.

Chrome

[chromosphere]

GEL

Your points are well taken. Thanks for your perspective. I do want to be completely honest with my W. I just don't want to goof that up like just about everything else I have tried to do. Getting in the right frame of mind of how to react to HER reaction seems to be an important thing.

Thanks again

Chrome

[Bear]

Hi Chrome,

So how are you doing on the AD's?

you can't logical R's, feelings, and emotions

Yep, but I think you can decide how much importance to assign them. It may feel huge, but sometimes if you can take a step back you realize that it's not bad as it may seem. What you focus on expands.

I think "man I am so happy that my W did X or Y", but that is followed by the thought "but that is still so far from where I want to be

That one kind of hurt to read. I know my XH used to think this way too. Even though he didn't say it out loud, I could read his disappointment. The result was that I felt that I could never be enough or do enough for him and I resented having to try so hard and then watch him still be disappointed that I wasn't his idea of perfection. He certainly wasn't mine either, but I did try to get to a point where I could appreciate what he WAS doing.


It is encouraging though that there are people who have been able to defeat that mentality

It's still a struggle at times. Especially now that I am in a new relationship. I will say though, that it just kind of clicked for me. After many years of resentment and feeling inadequate.

interested in hearing more about this change

I don't mind talking more about this. I'll have to give it some thought. I know that, ironically, it seemed that I had to get to the point where ML meant less for me in order for it to mean more for him. As a woman raised to be a "good" girl, much of my life was spent feeling like sex was something that men wanted to take from me, or were waiting for me to give them. We never talked about sex when I was growing up except the idea was very clear that good girls don't. There were no PDA's between my parents. I was also raised to believe that to want or need anything for yourself makes you selfish. So, when I got to college and met a man I thought I loved, it was all about pleasing him. I didn't really allow myself to have fantasies. I could never come up with one when asked. I was too worried about what people might think of me. Got to keep up the appearance of good girl. When we broke up, which was horrible btw...I was in the hospital with pneumonia and I called the frat house where he was president. They told me he was out with Bear. I said "This is Bear, where is he?" Turned out he was cheating on me and was with the OW. Ouch. I was sent home on bedrest for a couple months and had a lot of time to think. I remembered a convo we had had a couple weeks earlier where he asked me if I was happy and if I wanted to break up. I said that I was happy but whatever he wanted to do. I was THINKING no, I don't want to break up but I also don't want to be with someone who doesn't want me. I shouldn't have to make him love me. But I realized later that what it came across as was that I didn't give a crap. I was not being honest because I was keeping up appearances.

So fast forward to married life and again, it felt many times like a performance. My needs were not being met, but I was people pleasing in a big way. I started to really resent that, and him. Now, keep in mind that he became abusive so that's a different sitch. We would go months without. Even when things were going well, I knew it wouldn't last for long so it was hard to invest 100% in it. There were times when we would argue and he would sleep on the couch (his choice)and I would go to him the next day and say that he was welcome to come back whenever he was ready. He would get angry at that because what he wanted me to say was that I WANTED him to come back. It felt very controlling. I thought alot about that earlier convo with XBF from college and realized I was not investing myself. I also heard Dr. Phil talk about a man's sexual needs in terms of if your H woke in the middle of the night and needed a glass of water, wouldn't you get him a drink? Why would you deny such a basic need as sex? I also had a back injury at this time and was in a lot of pain and XH would give me back rubs. We had gone down the road of "Why can't a back rub be JUST a backrub?" but when I was in a lot of pain, it was just a back rub even though I knew he wanted more.

Anyway, all those things together kind of made me think. I am expecting him to give me what I need and not providing him with what he needs. Someone needs to take the first step. I thought about the massages and wondered why massaging one certain part of him would be different than any other part. So that's where I started. I told him I wanted him to come back to the bedroom and I thanked him for all the massages he had given me and told him I would like to return the favor if he was open to it. I started on his back and ended on his front.

Now my thought process in all of this was that I want to be honest in my emotions. There was still a lot of anger and resentment but I had to let that go and assign more importance to the fact that I loved him and wanted him to be happy. This was not a performance for his sake. This was a loving act between a husband and a wife. So that's kind of how my thought process started to change. It took baby steps and lots of massages. But I realized during this process that his enjoyment was working to get me going too. I always went into it by saying that it was just going to be a massage, front and back, but many times I got so into it that it turned into more. Trust was key here because if I didn't want to do more than the massage for whatever reason, he didn't resent it or act like he was disappointed. KWIM? What I was willing to give was good enough and he was happy with it.

So, that's some of it. It's difficult to think about some of this stuff because at times, our relationship was really great. We were the couple that everyone wanted to be. But, alcohol was a greater lover than I was I guess. At least I have realized that it was his choice and his loss. Most of the time I believe that.

Ok, gotta go put together a treasure hunt for my daughters pirate party tomorrow! Have a good weekend.

Bear

ps. The point here Chrome, is not to get your wife to change like I did. Reverse the roles and figure out what you aren't providing for her (what she really needs, not what you think her needs are) and try to start there. Think of your marriage as a place to give, not take, most of the time. You may be surprised at what happens. Either that or present her with the massage idea.

[chromosphere]

Bear,

Only have a second, just stopped in in-between errands. Just wanted to say thanks for the words. A LOT of them spoke to me deeply. I'll respond when I get a chance. Thanks again.

Chrome

[OG_Lou]

Bear, welcome to the SSM forum. I have been enjoying your posts.

[Bear]

No problem Chrome. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Thanks Lou!

Bear