I've read your responses and thanks to you all for your insights. I do think you are right Fran, my views on love and relationships are VERY immature. I'm not saying that as self-loathing, it is something I guess I have always known just never really focused on how to fix it. I am a romance-junkie as several of you have said it. I guess I just filed romance away in my mind as a NEED, and never stopped to really look closely at it as a potential problem. I know it is a FOO issue, born from an abusive father and distant mother, exacerbated by a M that has very little romance and a huge disparity in what sort of M we find acceptable. So long as I could hide behind low self-esteem (romance is not in the cards for me because I don't deserve it) I was ... "ok" But getting a taste of romance/adoration, finally feeling the stirrings of infantile love that I had never had before has formed an addiction inside myself. Maybe I am misusing terms here, but I hope you see what I mean.
Although it is probably too early to really start forming a plan of action to solve this problem, my mind has been pondering. I'm thinking the ideal way would be to go through the stages of love in the way they were intended to be experienced. Trying to have a mature relationship without having the proper foundational steps might be difficult. Is it possible to skip all the intermediate steps? How possible would it be to go through those earlier steps with my W, especially given the bad decisions I have made over the years that will now weigh very heavily on our R? Is doing that even necessary? These are all questions for my C as well, but he couldn't get me in until next week.
Things are difficult at home right now. My FIL is very sick and the doctors can't figure out why. I hope I am making the right decision, but this didn't seem like the time to talk about the mistakes I have made with the W. I am having a hard time masking my self-loathing though, which I am sure is adding to the tension. We got into a very unecessary argument about my W working once the kids got into school. I did finally realize that although I am right (we have 3 kids and I don't have a high paying job, she is going to have to go to work), what I really should have done is been empathetic to her worries about not being able to find a job that makes it easy for her to be home when the kids are home. I am having trouble focusing on our compatibilities instead of our incompatibilities. I am hopeful though that the medication will kick in soon and the endless feedback loop that are my thoughts will stop or at least slow down.
Cobra,
You definitely found the right button to push. I am sorry that I haven't been listening or responding to your posts. My only excuse is that I found many of your statements to be uneccesarily vituperative and found myself responding uneccessarily aggressively to them. I ended up focusing on the logical fallacies in your arguments instead of focusing on the helpful stuff you were saying. I hope you will accept my apology, as I can clearly see that you spent some time trying to help me. If you want to talk FOO with me, I will listen. If you are tired and fed up with trying, I understand.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Chrome, sorry about all your troubles. Take small steps. We all tend to believe what we hear and see over and over again so how about taking the maudlin, self-loathing things you can control away? Ditch the Blue October sig, listen to soul affirming music, etc. I am like you emotionally in many ways. I used to think listening to sad, forelorn music was cathartic but I found I was simply soaking in it and it reinforced my negativity. You have made some pretty bad choices, it is true. That does not make you a bad person. While not everyone makes the same bad choices, everyone makes their own bad choices. Stop wallowing in your bad choices and misery. Use the lessons of the self-esteem coach. You know they work. We've seen it in your demeanor over the last year or so.
Much like an addict you are at a crossroads. There comes a point where an addict faces a stark choice. What used to be fun and "not a big deal" becomes a life altering, soul smothering situation. He can decide that the pull is too strong and therefore he can absolve himself of responsibility for his failures and rationalize his continuance of them. Or he can decide enough is enough, to forgive himself for falling but resolving to change. You need to stop wallowing in your failures, forgive yourself as much as possible, and then you need to stiffen your back and get to work. There is much you have to offer your wife and your family. They deserve your best shot. I'm quite certain your best shot is pretty damn good.
Gone the carvings and those who left their mark. Gone the kings and queens, now only the rats hold sway.
Thanks. I've been hearing everyone say take baby/small steps, but I guess I haven't been listening. I should have been taking more care of myself all along. I thought I was, my self-esteem was improving, things seemed to be steadily going forward in my M (with some bumps). But I stepped over a larger-deeper issue, rationalized it away. But these things have a way of working themselves back in whether you want to deal with them or not.
Thanks for your kind words Balto. They are much appreciated.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
I am in no way mad or upset with you. I know I tend to be too harsh at times in my posts. That is some of my own stuff coming out. I was reacting in part to my frustrations when you kept berating yourself.
I know I throw a lot of stuff out. Some of it is on target and some of it isn’t. I never know for sure, it all has some degree of assumption in it. Go back and read some old posts where I said something to make you mad and then read another where I was totally off base. Take the ones that make you mad and separate them into two groups – one for the comments you understand, that makes sense, where you can see your issues, even though you may not want to admit or confront them. Make another group for the ones that make you mad but you have no idea why. Focus on this second group because the anger and frustration you feel is coming from that little voice in your head. Try to listen and figure out what it is saying and where it is coming from.
Being true to yourself is THE hardest thing we need to do. Once you can accept yourself, then you can stop the games and begin to move forward. It is scary and it hurts. But not doing so is worse. You CAN do it. You have much more in you that you give yourself credit. And if you don’t think you deserve your own dedication and commitment, then maybe thinking of your family can help.
At this time, focus on you and your issues. Just let the marriage coast along, try to keep the peace, address your father's health problems, etc. Continue to do what you can to improve relations with your wife. Do not turn down any sex. Just don't push the envelope. I think you really need to stabilize yourself first before you can really start moving the marriage along. It may actually be good to focus on you to let your wife feel a little distance and allow her the opportunity to step up to the plate on her own. She has as much growing to do as you. Hang in there.
Quote: But I stepped over a larger-deeper issue, rationalized it away.
What are you talking about here?
Chrome, I'm gonna be honest with you. (hee hee, I can hear you saying Nooooooooooo)
I see you being almost brutal on yourself, as far as your personality goes..."I don't deserve this" or "I'm not worthy of that". BUT. You stop short of really getting down to the nitty gritty and describing what your true failings are, wrt to this latest development. It's almost as if you sidestep naming them directly, so that you don't have to own up to them and the subsequent responsibility of doing something about them. Instead, you keep it to a "I'm Scum" level which is SO insurmountable that you feel stuck.
I see your biggest problem as one of: not respecting the sanctity of your marriage.
Although I never had an A, I was guilty of this same thing also. I took it for granted, did not try to meet H's needs, did all sorts of things that helped set the environment for him to 'get religion' and leave me in the dust.
I abhor what you have done to your M--and yourself--but I'm inviting you to put it into perspective and really, honestly see it for what it is. It isn't "Chrome is the biggest loser on the face of the earth", it is "Chrome has not respected his M" and "Chrome has not gotten a handle on his conflict avoidance". Get HONEST, man, it will help your progress.
I remember there was a time, and I'm sure everyone else could chime in with their own stories, where I was so desperate for attention from the opposite sex that I looked for it everywhere. From strangers, from BIL (who offered me 200 dollars to let him watch me take a bath, the scumbucket), etc etc. By the grace of God, I was able to hold it together and keep my mind focused on the task at hand. That, and the fact that I'm a sahm and do not come in contact with many men and do not have opportunities (time away from home) in which to act on my impulses. My point is that we have all felt the Rock Bottom feeling before. It's awful. These feelings, in and of themselves, do not make you terrible or an addict. What you do from there is another story, as you know. If you look deep inside yourself and determine that you'd rather go outside your M so that you don't have to work past your deeply entrenched feelings of conflict avoidance, then you know that you need to go to the C and address the conflict problems--not the Chrome is pondscum problem. See what I mean about getting honest? Being able to positively identify what you have GOT to work past will enable you to finally move forward.
I'm still in "dark" mode (so to speak) trying to figure some things out, but I do really appreciate your thoughts. You are both right. My responses to your posts Cobra do highlight my issues. And HP, the problems that you mention are spot on. I haven't respected my M, and I am TOO desperate for attention. I am stuck in "Chrome is the most despicable person on the planet" mode which is making it difficult to really attack the true issues. But there is something deeper there inside me from wich I feel most of my problems stem. It is a FOO thing for sure, and I am beginning to see how it manifests itself in how I interact with people, and the trouble I cause for myself and others with those interactions. I don't have a name or a description for it yet, I plan on discussing it with the C on Tuesday. I am not saying it would be a silver bullet if I were to fix it, there are other unrelated things for sure. But I think if I can fix that or at least minimize, I'll feel more like a person again.
Thanks again for all your help
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Re HP so that you don't have to own up to them and the subsequent responsibility of doing something about them Chrom this is good/the way I see it too. Listen to HP.
I took it for granted, did not try to meet H's needs, did all sorts of things that helped set the environment for him to 'get religion' and leave me in the dust. Chrom, apply the underlying principal to your situation. I see HP's basic concept and applied it to my M. It might or might not apply to yours but seriously consider it both for yourself and for your W.
work past your deeply entrenched feelings of conflict avoidance, I only used part of HP's post because I am putting myself in your shoes.
Conflict avoidance. Is it your main problem or is being the center of attention of a group or the center of attention to a few select individuals is what you seek? I suspect it is a mix.
to HP I was able to hold it together and keep my mind focused on the task at hand. That, and the fact that I'm a SAHM and do not come in contact with many men and do not have opportunities (time away from home) in which to act on my impulses. HP, I have and I think many of us have had similar feelings, actions, thoughts. A friendly hand shake for a job well done, for hanging in there and working on the M. <Lou also tips his hat with respect to HP >
Chrom, this was on another forum here on the DB web site. Things in red, I added
Quote: This concept is often used with children: telling a child "you can have one piece of candy now, or 3 pieces later". In other words, you can find yourself one scumbag guy now I would leave out scum bag , or you can wait, take your focus off of the instantly gratifying quick fix you are longing for, work on yourself, and you'll end up with a much better guy later (and far more importantly, a much better Emily Chrom ). In fact, this goes hand in hand -**** if you can't improve yourself, you will have to settle for someone as a partner that is far less than you deserve.**** Even Kevin your W will be forced to grow as a person in response to your growth if he she decides to stay participate more, fill your empty spots in your life.
The one piece of candy now or the three pieces later caught my eye. I know when you are starved for candy/attention/sex, the one piece in front of you now, real or imagined, looks so tempting.
Seems like I missed alot on your thread. Have not read the confession but dont really need to either.I am gonna tell you I am not surprised by finding you were still in contact with OW. There have been many tell tale signs. As for what part LFL plays in this hey it is not a first time this has happened on this board nor will it be the last. Neither of you need to leave the board. You just need to not contact each other outside of the board. I have over stepped the boundrys of this board many times with explicit detailed talk I just have never taken it off the board and into a more personal realm. You two made that mistake nothing to hide from even be ashamed of it happens but to discountinue this now that you have realized that it is not helping either of you would be a good thing to do.
I agree with others that discountinuing contact with OW and other females that you are currently seeking adoration from is a good step if you really want to save your marriage. All the ego boosting they give you sexually and in your confidence is taking away from your self respect. You need to decide which is more important to you. Being able to look at your self in the mirror and like what you see And being able to look your wife in the eyes without feelings of shame Or the adoration and sexual attention of strangers. I just dont know what side of the fence I sit on with telling all to your wife. But I know the guilt of the lies may never allow you to really be open to her and unguarded so if you dont you may never be able to really give your marriage 100 percent with the big white elephant between you. But I have also read various articles that state that you should not tell your spouse for various different reasons if you truely want to save your marriage. I feel for you for having to make that call.
Chrome you have the support of the board still from what I see. Heck you are also not the first one to not own up to all the facts in the begining. There have been others some are still her and respected members of this board. What matters is you learn to put it all out there if you truely want help that will benifit you.
I will remain reading your post and responding to the best of my ability. And with every thing else you have said here only one statement you have made stuck in my crawl.
That you wont kill yourself because your children at least deserve child support from you. This is the least of many things your children deserve from you. They deserve a father that loves them and wants to see them grow and learn and help teach them and protect them from the big bads of life. Money is nothing compared to that. Your not a maryter sticking around to provide money for your kids oh poor you how unselfish of you blah blah. If this is all you have to offer them then I feel sorry for them not you. Now what you are hopefully is a father who is not perfect but loves his children very deeply and will never abandon them all and all who just used a poor choice of words. Which sounded like you are going to be a person not there for them except with the exception of a child support check that comes in the mail once a month not sent out of love but obligation.
I told you not long ago you needed to grab your balls and take matters into your own hands. I say that again. Running away from this board instead of facing up to the fact you were not 100 % truthful is not a step in that direction. Staying her facing the music letting people vent about your deception then move forward from it would be IMO.
Now on to me I am fine thank you much better then I have been in a long period of time. Cannot post much because I am not staying at my house often and have no computer connection at my daughters house. So the only chance I have to catch up is on the odd occassion I am here. I just came back from Ohio today had a good visit with my family and offers of any type of support I need. And alot of why dont you just come back home and start your life overs. I have not really decided where I want to settle but dont really think I want to leave NC. I love it here. And hope with time when all my H anger issues subside and he gets on with his life we can continue to raise our kids as a family as much as possible from two seperate houses.
Things are touchy with communications with my H. One minute he seems okay and in agreeance that we are not good together or for each other the next he acts like we should just have sex and everything will be fine. Then screaming about how everything is my fault. I am not fighting back. I just state I understand him feeling this or that and he can blame me thats fine it does not matter blah blah. But I myself feel much calmer these days then I have in years.
