Howdy All! I know I don't get a chance to post here as often as I would like, but I do my best to keep you up with the latest.
First off... an apology.. several weeks ago, I found myself in a very bad spot.. confused, frustrated, sad and scared. I decided to rattle the cage in an extreme way. I posted my intentions to the board, immediately left the office to carry out the plan and then (thank goodness) had second thoughts. Because of this, you all had to see my at my worst, and for that I feel bad. I know, I know.. we all have had those down times and we shouldn't beat up ourselves for it, but still... knowing that people saw that.. even internet strangers.. is hard for me. I remind myself of the day that Gel discovered her husband's hidden self... that Chrome hit his low and freaked us out (where is that Chrome, anyway... concerning) or that Baltoman (and other's) finally decided to end things. So we have all been low, I just feel embarrassed in the knowledge that you all saw that side of me, as so few do. But a big thank you to all that commented, even the harsh, threatening comments, I was in a place where I needed that.
That all said, let me give you an update.. this may be a lot of random thoughts that will hopefully come together in the end... I have tried to listen to your comments and take what applied and..well... apply it and let go the things that didn't. In doing so I have realized that yes, my wife is going through a depression. I have known that, our families know that, her friends know that, but she still will not admit that or deal with it any any way. What I have realized is that over the last 8 years, I have been begging for progress to be made, while at the same time, I have been hindering the progress and protecting herself from facing whatever demon she needs to face. I am the kind of person that is kind hearted, whenever I see someone suffering, I just want to jump in and save that person, make it all feel better. Make them happy, let them know they are loved. So as soon as I see my wife start to go into that "down" mode, I bail her out.. I take over "Here honey," (As she walks in the door from work) " Here's your favorite drink, I am cooking your dinner, I'll take care of the kids, just go relax, watch some TV, read your book and do whatever you need to do to relax, if you need anything, let me know." For 7 years, that was how I did things. I worked to make her feel like the greatest person in the world. As you all put it, I put her up on a pedestal that she was not comfortable being on and then got confused when she wanted down, as I couldn't fathom how someone could NOT want to be treated that way. As long as I loved her, she would love me.
Now, I realize that all I was doing was delaying the inevitable. I was giving up all my power as soon all those nice things turned into expectations. What she needed to do was face the depression so she can move thorough it, learn how to deal with it and then recover. But anytime she got close, I would "save" her from it, thus helping her to just delay this natural cycle. This morning the thought crossed my mind that this may be one of the key things that attracted her to me in the first place.. she thought that with my personality and desire to please, she would be safe in her secrets forever.. one of the reasons that after years of really long dating relationships, she fell for me in less than a week (yup, we were engaged 2 weeks after meeting... nuts, eh?) And I was so surprised that someone would be interested in a divorced mormon (while divorce does happen in our church, it is certainly not smiled upon and I felt like I had a giant failure brand on my forehead when I started dating again) that I fell quickly too! So here I am... constantly saving the day, while real damage is being done as I delay her natural progress. Now, here we are... having constant struggles.
As I have come to realize this, I am working to change this. What this now means... my new theme: "no more coddling". No more spoiling. She needs to face this thing, she needs to work through it, find some help and hopefully recover. Now, I still try to be "me". I'll still do what I can to help her, but it far way from what I used to do.
How has this been received? Not well. I am being called every name in the book as she wants to go back into her spoiled life again. I am "selfish", living in a "self centered world" where I "only care about myself and say screw you to all of her needs". And it's not like I am trying to be a jerk... if she starts doing dishes, I'll jump in and help her so we get it done faster. But I no longer say. "oh honey, you had a busy day, go relax and I'll do it all". nope. busy or not, we are both now living in reality and she's not happy about it. Over the weekend, she made the comment angrily while walking to do laundry "I have to make a hard decision.. whether its more important for me to be happy, or for the kids to be happy by living in the same house as their father. Right now, I am sacrificing my own happiness for their sake, but believe me, if they were not here, I would be long gone. And the way you're acting makes me really sad." Yeah... I'll bet it does... your no longer a spoiled princess....
Sorry, thats a long introduction to my SSL issue. One of the things I am also trying to do is be realistic. I am trying to communicate my needs and wants to her so she as a "real world" understanding of what a marriage is in my mind. I am no longer e-mailing... I am trying to talk.. in person about my expectations and over the last week, we discussed my list: Evenly distributed household chores, family dinner at the table every night... no tv, family activities that include all of us, taking care of our religious duties when necessary, and yes, a regular sex life. So last week we had a conversation about these things and why they are important to me. One of the things I brought up is that everything is scheduled.. we know we are having dinner each night, there is no confusion... we know when we go to church, we know when and how to do our chores. But in regards to our SL, we don't know.. it is open. and that openness causes way too many issues.. there is no standard as to when to have sex, how often, etc. So, I presented my solution... Let's reserve one night a week for sex: Thursday nights. This way, we know what is going on, we both know what will happen so there are less arguments. When we go to be that night, she can expect me to initiate. But, to me, the best thing about this is that all the other nights of the week, she is free. She can relax and not have to worry about if I am horny or not. If I do something that she may have at one time associated with initiation, she can learn that I am not trying to initiate as I have promised not to. So I explained this all.. out loud... no e-mail. I presented my concerns... I presented my solution that I thought was fair. I sought her feedback and welcomed it to adjust a few parts of it. And.. she actually agreed to the plan. I was a little shocked that it was that easy. Heck, I guess this communication stuff really does work!
Fast forward to Thursday. I came home from work to an insanely cold wife. All I could get out of her were basic yes or no answers when attempting to discuss matters of the day. She refused to eat at the dinner table with the family. I began to think my whole "scheduled sex" idea was monumentally bad. But at the same time I was torn... Do I be the old me and just "nice" my way out of it.. and demonstrate from the get go that if she acted like that she got out.. by so doing she'd be acting like that every Thursday. But I couldn't do it with her acting like THAT. So I was a bit creeped out by the whole concept.
Thursday night comes... Kids are finally down for the night and my wife is already in bed reading. I had just decided to keep things low key and not push it. As I walk in the bedroom, my wife gets out of bed, yanks off her clothes and gets back in the covers, saying forcefully "Ok, it's thursday... just get it over with!!!" Red sirens stated going off in my head and started back peddling "look, I don't want to do this.. like this" I started to say. She then let her explosive anger fly "You asked me to do this and I am trying to help. Now don't you go trying to get out of this!" The red sirens in my head continued to sound... but this is where I struggle.. I'll admit to you all... I am seriously weak! I so rarely see skin that when I do... it's hard to resist. So even with the sirens going off, I succumbed. Heck, I had a naked woman lying on the bed asking me for sex. That never happens. So even though I felt bad, I couldn't resist her pressure.
Luckily, it had been long enough... that... eh.. things happened quickly... But I can say, without a doubt.. this was my WORST sexual experience ever. All I wanted to do was get it over with as quickly as humanly possible and get out of there and away from the situation. The sex was terrible, she wouldn't let me kiss her in any way, which set off more red flags. And seeing her, I felt like the world's worst person. I mean, I have gotten used to the fact that the only sex I will ever have is what is considered "crap sex", but this was just way beyond crap sex. I felt so terrible about the whole thing, I just can't even begin.
Over the weekend, my wife continued to be cold, but still made plenty of references to the future, starting to brainstorm Thanksgiving family travel plans. She is keeping her distance, lot allowing any more hugs and not responding with the "I love you too" when going to sleep or on the phone. (She'd never say it first, but will typically respond if said to her). So this brings up my confusion... Is this now part of the depression? Is she starting back down to the depressed place and expecting me to bail her out as normal? And what the heck do I do about this Thursday?! Honestly, I never want to go near how things felt last week again!!! But if she is acting herself she will hold me to it, to prove whatever point she is making, and to validate her "victim mode". To me, it's easy.. just cancel the whole scheduled thursday sex plan and deal with her aftermath... After all, I am already the jerk in her mind... the selfish one.. so what's one more blow to her by making her think I don't want her sexually anymore..
I am confused.. tired.. and hoping for some advice.. but at least I am far from where I was a few weeks back... never want to be there again...
Don't ever, ever, ever, ever, again degrade yourself into having mercy sex. Ever. Don't do it. I don't care how turned on you get by flesh. Go to the bathroom and take care of business. That fish ain't flying with me, fella. Yeah, you got a whole lot more control than that. Use it.
And I would, in a heartbeat, use that disgust against her.
"Are you fcking joking? If you think I ever wanted that way, you are insane. Though your ass does look heavenly... have you been working out?"
And I'd walk out of the room.
Number two: you are not Dr. Fix It. Read Lil's thread. You cannot fix another. Period. Ever. You can only point to a problem so another can see it for themselves. And that 'pointing' includes being YOU and firmly being YOU, with all boundaries included... and you leave them the heck alone.
She will not deal with her depression until 1) she can recognize it and own it, and 2) til she is dam good and ready. It could very well be she is using it as a crutch and a weapon against you... so be prepared.
SEX is the LEAST of your problems right now, buddy. Get that?! LEAST. Ain't even in the fcking ballpark right now, HG. Not even close.
Get OVER yourself and scheduled sex. You need to head into radical honesty... which I think Mrs. NOPs has posted about. Read up on IT.
Corrie is absolutely correct...sex is the LEAST of your problems right now, it needs to be on the backburner somewhere. DO NOT ACCEPT MERCY SEX....or sex offered in the attitude she presented you with. It's demeaning, it's degrading, and it's disappointing.
Right now, IMPO...you are trying to do too much all at once...you cannot hope to address EVERYTHING at one time, and that's how it appears you are going at this. You need to pick your battles and deal with one thing at a time...changing your behavior and taking her off that pedestal is a good start....but you will sabotage yourself by doing too much at one time if you don't backoff.
You've changed your behavior pretty drastically with her...I'm not one bit surprised by her reaction to you when Thursday night rolled around.
Give her direction and take one thing at a time (and as Corrie said...remember you can't fix her and her issues, she has to be the one to do that)...don't bombard the woman and turn everything upside down on her at once...and then expect her to be sexually receptive to you...it ain't gonna happen my friend.
Give her some time to adjust to your new behavior...communicate with her more etc....but pick an important issue that YOU can work on within yourself and deal with it ...then move to the next (sex isn't even on the radar at the moment...eventually it will be, but not yet.)
Ok, Actually, I am notorious for that in all other aspects of life.. although I have not really thought about it in terms of relationship stuff. Interesting point.
I just get frustrated and inmpatient... I am a guy... I want to fix things. I want to turn the screw and make it better..arg arg arg (Tim the Toolman grunts). I know the woman I married. I want to be with that woman again like you cannot believe and for years I have been stuck with this downer negative person. I can see what she is inside and I love that person, but she cannot see that person. She is stuck in her low self esteem and worthless place.
I know I can be over zelous in my efforts...I don't really mean to, again I just want to fix it.
I know... sex is the least of my problems right now. But as she is coming to terms with reality, I want her to know that it is important to me. I don't want her to finally get through the depression thinking I am fine without sex only to discover that I really am not. I want her to have all the facts straight going in, so there are no surprises.
If she rejects me, then she rejects the REAL me, not someone she thinks that I am, because I haven't been honest about what I think is right in a marriage. That's one of the reason's I thought to bring up the sex thing at this particular time.
I don't think you're getting what Corri and GEL are saying, Hap.
Quote: I want her to know that [sex]is important to me.
I think she knows this. And I think there are more productive ways to convey this to her than to have crap/pity/mercy sex. And by "more productive", I mean for BOTH of you. Sex with her, as she behaves now, is killing your self esteem. You shouldn't be doing this to yourself or to her. Seriously, when she rips off her clothes in anger and lies down on the bed and says, "get this over with", you need to just say, "not this way, babe", turn around, and go sleep on the couch. Do not rescue her when she is sobbing about it. She needs to deal with HER problems herself.
This really sucks for you, but it sucks for her, too. But I gotta tell you, the "I am weak, I succumbed" stuff doesn't fly with me. You need to dig down DEEP and find the strength to walk away, because what you are doing is more than just a physiological reaction to her nakedness; you are reacting to her violation of what you see as your right as her husband, by violating her body. To her, the violation of her body give her every reason to continue the behavior, and so on, and so on.
It's a sick cycle. You can only break it if you stop the crap sex. You can continue to let her know verbally that this is a big problem, but stop farking her until she and you are ready to come to the bed with mutual desire and love. Remember, it's supposed to be a sacrament.
Ok...gonna be real blunt with you since you are a "fixer". The harder you work at "fixing" her...the more it will backfire on you. Concentrate on YOU and your behavior...that is the ONLY thing you have any control to fix. Oh, and by that I don't mean "if I do this then she'll do that."...I mean work on your internal issues and your real behavioral issues (control, not putting her on a pedestal etc)...for you and the health of your R, not what if might gain you.
You cannot make her see her problems, much less deal with them....this has to happen from within her. What I still hear from you is YOU concentrating on HER in your posts....not on your own behaviors. Your getting there...but you are still focused on her.
Now...if you really want to be true to yourself and honest with her..next time Thursday rolls around and she behaves the way she did last week (and she will)...turn it down. Call her on her behavior...override your hormones (which you can co) and don't accept sex in the manner she's offering it. Right now with both of you approaching sex in this manner (which is the least of your real issues) you are going to both build even more resentment and hurt feelings....how will that help the situation? She already knows sex is an issue for you...you've communicated that...stop focusing on trying to communicate that to her...she's heard you.
Concentrate on your behaviors...for you, take your focus off of her, you will be surprised the affect that can have.
I’m going to put up the other side of this debate, just to keep things balanced. While I agree with what Corri, GEL and HD are saying, I think HG is in a different type of situation. His wife has some deeper issues that may take a LONG time to work through. There is a balance to everything, and in this case I believe HG’s mental/emotional state is every bit as important as his wife’s.
I know this may seem contrary to what I berated him about before, and I am NOT recommending he do anything against her wishes, or in any way try to force himself on her and that he make EVERY attempt to be compassionate and caring, but I do think he should go ahead with the sex IF she says she is willing. Not only does HG need to stop fixing (which is just a control tactic to sooth your own abandonment fears, HG), but his wife needs to empower herself. She needs to become responsible for her own actions and decisions, and learn to stop playing the martyr. There are two sides to this issues too – should HG back off and not cause her to confront decisions like this, or should he just be himself and allow her to confront this tough choice.
I tend to think backing off and not forcing the issues is just the comfort zone she wants and she will not EVER move forward. Her trauma is so great she will avoid it at (almost) all cost. Pushing too hard will cause her to eventually bail. Some pressure is what I think is needed, and what HG is proposing seems to be along those lines. Yes, she is stressed, upset, yelling, etc. GOOD!! This means she is NOT comfortable, she knows she cannot get back to her safe hermit cave, and she is doing everything she can to force HG to back down.
I think that unless your partner is reacting with a control amount of stress, like HG’s wife, growth CANNOT and WILL NOT take place. I see her discomfort as reassurance that things are moving in the right direction. Backing off the pressure until her boil settles down to a quiet simmer could just leave the relationship stuck forever. This marriage needs strong treatment IMO.
She is under loads of stress, but so is HG. If he gets too frustrated and bails, then everyone losses. From a male point of view, I think he needs a LITTLE sex to keep him level, to keep him wanting more and willing to do all he can to improve, to keep the pressure on his wife and keep the interactions going. But HG, DO NOT force it on her or make her feel abused in any way. If she says do it, then I say do it, but make all efforts to talk about things and find out WHY she feels as she does. I think you should look at sex as your opportunity to push into her emotions and slowly talk about what she feels and why. Don’t look at sex as just your way of getting off. That would be a waste of a valuable opportunity.
Now, what is the deal with finding a counselor??!! Why has this taken so long??!!
While I understand what you are saying...I absolutely disagree. Accepting the sex she was offering will only foster ill feelings in BOTH of them. Also, refusing her when she behaves this way...after having him tell her how important this is to him, rattles cages.
She knows what she's offering is crap sex...so does he. If he accepts it she gets away with the behavior. He needs (IMPO) to stand up for the fact that THIS is not the type of intimate contact he's after...and that is degrading to him to accept sex in that manner. If he accepts it then it validates her view point that he's just after the release and her body.
while I understand what you are saying, and I agree with it to some degree... I agree with GEL on crap sex. That doesn't mean he can't try again next Thursday, and perhaps try and speak with her about it between now and then... but angry sex, to me, creates far more lasting damage to both of them for all the reasons, and more, that GEL listed.
We all know she has to confront her demons, and it is only something she can do. We all know that this would probably be most effectively dealt with in counseling... but HAP can only do so much. This is a slippery slope to be sure.
Ok, so after reading the original round of responses.. didn't see Cobra's until later this morning, I decided to cancel the whole scheduled sex ide afor the time being.. maybe it is something we can try down the road as I still saw a lot of plusses for the idea. But that's assuming we use it as a way so that we BOTH know what is going on and can have a schedule that we can trust and we BOTH come to the event wanting to take care of each other and use that scheduled time in a good way. I know. it's just a pipe dream at this point.. But maybe someday.
Tuesday is an early mornig for her as she has to be at work quite early, but I woke up to talk to her this morning so she would know I was serious. I told her "I really feel like we just need to cancel the whole scheduled sex idea for right now. We have a lot of other things to work on and maybe we can just save this idea for sometime down the road. I love you and I want sex to be something that you do because you love me and want to experience that with me, not because you feel like it's just your duty. So, just don't worry about Thursday night, as I don't want you to stress about it."
I thought I had done a good thing for her. I was expecting at least a "thank you for taking my feelings into consideration, I appreciate that." What I got was her throwing her hands in the air saying "whatever...." as she left the room.
So now, not only did I just give in, and I fear that I just gave up all the "no coddling" work I have done by putting her back into a more comfort zone, but I still managed to make her mad. Way to go me... It doesn't seem to matter what approach I take.. it will irritate her all the same.
I did try to talk more. What she said is that she dreams every night that I leave her. She has "been trhough it" so many times that they only way she can protect herself is to just shut down her feelings all together. In the early days of her dreams she would get all upset at my leaving her and they would be very distressfull dreams. Now she is coming to grips with the idea and just letting it happen, shutting her self off and pulling away from me to protect herself. She says its all she knows how to do.
But here's what is confusing me... It's her dreams... it's not real. I am not leaving her, have no plans to leave her, and love her. Yet, she is changing the reality of our lives and her feelings to accomodate the dreams. She is pulling away from me in reality to help her face "dream me", while ignoring real me. I just don't understand this. One of the things I keep getting told is to not take things personally. "It's the depression talking, so you can't personalize her responses" is what her friend told me. So is this one of those instances where I jsut go "its her depression.. not really me" or do I need to take it personally?
She also continued to mention my lack of communication... I know, I know.. I have struggled with this for years.. the whole sharing of my deep down intermost feelings about any and everthing. It's not something that comes naturally. I am trying to get better, but until I do, she said she will continue to withdraw. Anyone, especially the guys, have anytips for suddenly letting my inner-woman gabby talker out? I tell her about my day.. she seems uninterested in the deep down technical aspects of my job.. who would be? We always seem to have good conversations at dinner. I just don't know what she is after here.. and she brouht that up too... she said "You probably have no clue what I am talking about, so there is no point in even asking.. you just don't get it and until you do, there is no way you can fix it."
TRUE! I have no idea what she is after and I think that over the last year my communication has greatly improved. So I am at a loss. I didn't feel comfortable approaching this Thursday night as a "sex night", so I let her off the hook and in so doing led her right back into the comfort zone she likes to stay in, thus putting us right back where we were... in no progress land. So now, I am not only stumped as to what to do, but where to even go. I feel out of ideas..
This morning since getting to the office, she has called several times, in a good mood, pricing differet digital cameras, getting my opinion as I teach digital photography classes. While it's nice to hear her upbeat again, part of my brain is going "oh great, she's back to hiding.. I caved.. I gave in.. now I get to start back down the hard road all over again..." Ug.
