GH--haven't posted to you in a while. As usual, you're doing swell....picking yourself back up each day and digging into the self-awareness....what a great guy!
From your latest conversation, I would venture to say this....be careful. Not of your W, but of yourself. She is watching everything you do/say....she has enough faith in you and the M to keep watching, it's a sign that she still has hope that things can change, though she may project differently. So, keep that in mind and continue your introspection and new actions.
Another thing, she's trying to tell YOU to WATCH HER. Do that. Remember the premise of the LL's....you don't always receive in teh way you do....she will not show you in ways you show, but in her own way. Would it be nice if she showed you in ways you do/want (talking)....YES....but, then again, shouldn't we all be loved for who we are, and showing the other person love at all. LL's teaches us to give how the other person wants to give, but we often forget the flip side of it...recognizing how the other person gives and loving them for that....learning to take pleasure and excitement over the wya they show their love for us.
So, watch her. Be grateful for the little things. Show her your gratitude, without overdoing it. Positive reinforcement goes a long way. Don't forget either, that her indifference to the A is her guilt turned outwards. It's still too hard to face....it's hard for her to accept your love....technically SHE is not really "over it" either....she pressures you to be, so she can be. Reality is, she has to face these things to really let her emotions come out, and to be ablet o do something as simple as talk.
You appreciating the little things will let her not feel so low about herself....will make her feel that she CAN make up for her transgressions. But, be sure you're not always caught up in making her feel good about her sins....make sure that you do get some closure with her, that she reaches out to take care of you.
You're in a delicate phase now....keeping up the detachment, but reaching out in ways that are needed right now.
The more you appreciate the simple things she does do to make you feel safe (not talk on phone or go out at night), the more she will see you need this now, and maybe she'll try.
Don't forget that there is STILL an amount of uncontrollable issues here...her guilt, her shame and her ability to forgive herself and come out of this. This is where you have to get comfortable with uncertainty and let her figure this out for herself and let this ride out.
I promise you....drop the rope, turn back to you and be a friend. It will come.
Wow! Always took most of the words right out of my mouth. Excellent advice.
As for you little GH, you are making such progress and your W seems to be really trying. The best thing you can do is to get out of your own way. I know I am just as guilty of this. Sometimes we try to help so much we don't realize that all the other person wants is for us to listen.
GH....Betsey (Underdog) wrote an excellent post on PARob's thread today....if you haven't already, it's worth reading (for all of us), but may be especially applicable in your current sitch.
Thanks Always. That was good stuff on Rob's thread. I got a lot out of that.
No real update. I was a bit upset last night for no real reason (well, other than having a marriage in shambles that is). My W had a terrible headache last night, worse than she's ever had before so she asked me to rub her temples. I did and soon her headache went away. She was surprised by that. I guess she didn't think I had "healing hands", lol. Anyway, after the headache was gone, and she thanked me profusely for helping her, she just stayed laying on me for awhile, her hand on my arm, me stroking her hair. It was kinda nice. The hand on the arm may not sound like much, but as I have said MANY times, this woman does NOT touch me. This was a definite attempt on her part to show affection/appreciation for what I did/me.
Like I said, it's a step I suppose. BTW, the upset part was much earlier in the night while I was driving to the store. I was way over that at bed time.
Isn't it funny (well, not really) that during our M's, we would get so freaking upset and angry and miserable and passive aggressive over the DUMBEST things....and now, we are able to gain control of our feelings and act cool and graceful under the most horrific of situations and things done/said to us.
Welp, I am back for another week. Not too much to report... or is there. Guess I'll start typing and we'll see.
First of all, there has been more conflict between W and I over the past week or so. What I mean is that I am no longer holding things in. If I see something that bothers me, I just say something. W doesn't like that. We have probably yelled at each other more in the last week than in the past several years, and actually, that's a GOOD thing because we do it and then it's over. It doesn't spill over into the rest of the day/night.
One thing that came out is that once again she says I am gone too much. Now it is really about the fact that Mon-Thurs I am with S6 in the afternoon and she is left with S3. Since it's summer, she wants time in the afternoon to do things without S3. Mostly she means around the house I guess. In this particular conversation I did a TERRIBLE job of validating. I got VERY defensive because I am doing the S6 things (karate & basketball) at HER suggestion (you don't do enough with the kids...). WTH? Anyway, we went round and round about this, me asking her what she wanted to do, etc, and that I would make time for her. She said she wasn't complaining... actually, she gave me the PERFECT Venus response, i.e. I just want you to acknowledge my fatigue having the kids for the last 2 months and then move on, NOT attack me for mentioning it to you... I didn't take the hint and attacked STRONG.
One other convo that went VERY badly was another attempt by her to just talk to me which I somehow turned into a personal attack. She started talking about needing to work out, something she's been saying for a couple months now. She keeps saying she's heavy. She's NOT. She looks FANTASTIC. I told her that. I always tell her that but it falls on deaf ears. I know MANY of you understand the frustration of that.
Anyway, somehow I managed to get in the comment that it was funny how the only time she has EVER been happy with her body started about 6-7 months ago and ended about 2 months ago. She and I both knew what I was saying. That didn't sit well with her at all. She said I just can't let things go and then said I managed to get at least one "jab" in on her every day. I pretty much exploded over that one. Not really in anger, just pure astonishment. I couldn't believe she said that. After all I had done to make sure I DIDN'T "jab" her and she somehow FEELS I do it daily. WTF? Anyway, I REALLY feel in this convo and other's I have missed the boat on listening and validating. That WHOLE convo could have been avoided if I just said "I understand how you feel. I think you look great but I know it's about how YOU feel. Maybe we can make time for you to go to the gym tomorrow (Sunday). Instead, I mixed in my anger/resentment over the affair into this convo and made it a fight, which, BTW, happened in front of the kids, something I REALLY regret and don't want to happen again.
The hardest part is that our anniversary is on Wednesday. I have NO idea what to do. Famously, I got her a new ring as her present but I want to do a little more for the day. She will get me something but I am really curious about the card situation. She's managed not to get me cards for the past two holidays, I assume because she doesn't know what to write (this is a woman who used to get me 3-4 cards for each occasion). I can't lie. Wednesday is a source of stress for me that I need to get a handle on. I am getting emotional and that needs to stop.
I know I need to back off, if only from the expectations in my mind. Actually, maybe you all may disagree, but I think since I have backed off physically, things have been WORSE not better. I really feel there was progress being made and once that R talked happened a few weeks ago and I pulled back, the progress has stopped. I don't know if that's because of her feelings or my actions. I know that even in that convo she said that my "romantic" attempts or simple daily intimacy towards her was something she didn't necessarily want to stop. I decided to stop it on my own, something I am now re-thinking. I really feel when I was doing that, it was expressing my feelings and being emotionally honest with her. I think a LOT of my resentment is fueled by holding back on that.
I remember posting once that I was NOT doing those things for her, but rather because I wanted to do them. I want to do them still. I now realize that I GREAT and making good progress until I let expectation creep into things. When I was approaching things from the perspective of a "beginners mind" and just taking things as the came, I was doing well. It's when I started to get impatient that things came to a screeching halt, starting with the R talk I started and continuing today. I want to change that dynamic, starting with me, maybe ending with me, but changing it never-the-less.
I am not really confused right now. I pretty much know what I want to do, I just need to do it. I need to center myself and go into Wednesday with an open mind. I don't know what to expect and so I want to clear my mind of expectations. I want to REALLY work on my listening skills and try to stop getting so defensive with W. It's one of the things that killed our R in the first place and the fact that it's back, no matter what the justification, really sucks. I want to change that. That's goal number one. All else will follow.
Quote: She said I just can't let things go and then said I managed to get at least one "jab" in on her every day. I pretty much exploded over that one. Not really in anger, just pure astonishment. I couldn't believe she said that. After all I had done to make sure I DIDN'T "jab" her and she somehow FEELS I do it daily. WTF?
Even a loving caress will hurt wounded skin.
I think your W is really vulnerable - I have read that during the withdrawal period, there's little that can be done by you that will have any positive impact. She just needs to get through this.
Quote: Instead, I mixed in my anger/resentment over the affair into this convo and made it a fight
You activated one of your triggers.
Quote: I know I need to back off, if only from the expectations in my mind. Actually, maybe you all may disagree, but I think since I have backed off physically, things have been WORSE not better. I really feel there was progress being made and once that R talked happened a few weeks ago and I pulled back, the progress has stopped.
You said you were going to stop looking for the effect what you do has on the sitch. Now it seems like you jumped right back into that comfortable place.
Quote: I don't know if that's because of her feelings or my actions. I know that even in that convo she said that my "romantic" attempts or simple daily intimacy towards her was something she didn't necessarily want to stop. I decided to stop it on my own, something I am now re-thinking. I really feel when I was doing that, it was expressing my feelings and being emotionally honest with her. I think a LOT of my resentment is fueled by holding back on that.
It seems pretty clear to me that you need/want things to be a certain way before you go back to this place. In my sitch, when I backed off, my W said a very similar thing, that she didn't want me to stop pursuing her. She wanted me to be affectionate, she wanted me to make advances. I think this is because it defines her security, and it also gives her a sense of power and value. I struggle with the "expression of feelings" thing too, and because we're in different places in our sitches, my feeling may not apply. I have conflicting emotions because of the degree of closeness I'm allowed. The good feelings (both expressed and resulting from the closeness) stimulate negative feelings as well. I would rather hold off and wait until we're in a better place somewhat for fear of becoming distracted and being lead and mislead by lower levels of my consciousness. As for your resentment being fueled by you NOT expressing your feelings physically, do you resent her for putting you in a position where you can't allow yourself this expression? I think you need to clearly choose to take responsibility for these actions in order to avoid resentment.
Quote: When I was approaching things from the perspective of a "beginners mind" and just taking things as the came, I was doing well. It's when I started to get impatient that things came to a screeching halt, starting with the R talk I started and continuing today. I want to change that dynamic, starting with me, maybe ending with me, but changing it never-the-less.
Well, the great thing about that perspective is that you can snap into it at any moment. You acted, now you can step back and try and make sense out of what is happening without attachment to any of your actions. It seems like you are doing that to some degree already, but I think the more attached you are to your actions, the more resentment you tend to build.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: Even a loving caress will hurt wounded skin.
I think your W is really vulnerable - I have read that during the withdrawal period, there's little that can be done by you that will have any positive impact. She just needs to get through this.
Yep. I agree 100%. I should realize this more but my frustrations build and I cannot allow that. I have to diffuse myself. I know I have taken a LOT of the blame for my sitch in the past, sometimes justifiably and sometimes not so much. This time, I REALLY believe if I can control my emotions, emotions that are MAINLY a reaction to things I create in my head, then my sitch would progress MUCH faster.
Quote: You said you were going to stop looking for the effect what you do has on the sitch. Now it seems like you jumped right back into that comfortable place.
I'm afraid some smart$$ is going to go find where I said this and quote me ( ) but I don't really remember saying that... I guess what I did say was that I was content to just be me and stop overanalyzing everything. If I didn't say that, I meant it and it's what I want to do. I want to just enjoy being myself and stop changing every week because of things that change in my sitch. What I discovered a long time ago is that I am happiest just expressing my feelings, POSITIVE feelings for my W. The only reason I want to stop doing that is because we are separated or because she asks me to. So far neither has happened. I choose to stop because of feelings I had. I REACTED to my W's feelings and changed my whole way of doing things. I have to decide what works in my sitch and what does not, and so far, up until a couple weeks ago, what I was doing seemed to be working so long as I got out of my own way to let it.
Quote: She wanted me to be affectionate, she wanted me to make advances. I think this is because it defines her security, and it also gives her a sense of power and value. I struggle with the "expression of feelings" thing too, and because we're in different places in our sitches, my feeling may not apply. I have conflicting emotions because of the degree of closeness I'm allowed. The good feelings (both expressed and resulting from the closeness) stimulate negative feelings as well. I would rather hold off and wait until we're in a better place somewhat for fear of becoming distracted and being lead and mislead by lower levels of my consciousness. As for your resentment being fueled by you NOT expressing your feelings physically, do you resent her for putting you in a position where you can't allow yourself this expression? I think you need to clearly choose to take responsibility for these actions in order to avoid resentment.
I DO want to choose to take responsibility for my actions, something I HAD done and stopped. I started merely reacting again. I think, since I AM supposed to be reconciling (SUPPOSED TO BE) I am in a better place to take a risk. I think my risk is not really a risk at all. I am just going to be me. I actually told her, albeit my angrily than I would like, that I am simply going to be me and be damned with the consequences. I am tired of pretending to be someone I am not. She may think, because of the way it came out, that I mean I will be MORE angry and abrasive but I think if I am true to myself, free from reaction to her or our sitch (as much as humanly possible) I will be MUCH more compassionate and empathetic towards her. I will BE unconditionally loving towards her AND myself. I don't want to be angry anymore. I decided I didn't want that several weeks ago and find myself back here again. Time to get back on the horse. It's what I want to do.
Quote: Well, the great thing about that perspective is that you can snap into it at any moment. You acted, now you can step back and try and make sense out of what is happening without attachment to any of your actions. It seems like you are doing that to some degree already, but I think the more attached you are to your actions, the more resentment you tend to build.
Amen. I think I was actually playing off this idea in the part above. I want to stop this cycle and I think I can. It's simply a choice.
Quote: I REACTED to my W's feelings and changed my whole way of doing things. I have to decide what works in my sitch and what does not, and so far, up until a couple weeks ago, what I was doing seemed to be working so long as I got out of my own way to let it.
Your theme is action vs. reaction, and it seems that you are often flip flopping on this. Of course, this is the nature of any relationship, but it seems that you are getting more secure in yourself so that your actions are not reactions imitating legitimate action. Maybe I'm projecting again. This is where I see the importance of creating more distance, because closeness seems to reinforce reactionary qualities.
Quote: I DO want to choose to take responsibility for my actions, something I HAD done and stopped. I started merely reacting again.
Self awareness in the moment. Are you shifting your focus towards a false "end" again? I know this is a bit presumptuous, but it seems that you are talking about your sitch in a different way, as in your talk of "progress". To me this implies a finish line of sorts. Not that there aren't clear goals here, because if your sitch is not markedly better in X amount of time, you have to move on, but it seems that your thinking has taken a turn.
Quote: I actually told her...that I am simply going to be me and be damned with the consequences.
I don't mean to imply that you're not, but are your actions telling the same story? If you're focusing on what your actions are doing, you're aware that you can change to get different reactions, right?
Quote: I will be MUCH more compassionate and empathetic towards her. I will BE unconditionally loving towards her AND myself. I don't want to be angry anymore.
Here's a concept that has occured to me several times in the context of my sitch, and it's kind of a philosophical POV. If objects in your world exists only in your mind (things are only real because you perceive them - they exist in your mind as concepts), you interact with your perception of things, not really the object itself. So therefore any emotion you feel for something is expressed AT YOURSELF, because your thoughts are you. To hate something else is to really express self hate. To love your world and everything and anything external to you is to love yourself. I know it's a bit of a narcisistic concept, but I think it's a somewhat healthy way to look at the affect your emotions have on you.
Quote: Thank you as usual for all your help Muddle.
You're welcome. Thanks for all of yours.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: I should realize this more but my frustrations build and I cannot allow that. I have to diffuse myself. I know I have taken a LOT of the blame for my sitch in the past, sometimes justifiably and sometimes not so much. This time, I REALLY believe if I can control my emotions, emotions that are MAINLY a reaction to things I create in my head, then my sitch would progress MUCH faster.
Here is Franks strange (but effective) thought process when I feel like I am being attacked and I don't want to react. I just think over and over in my head the following quote from the Psychotic penguin leader in the movie "Madagascar':
) but I don't really remember saying that... I guess what I did say was that I was content to just be me and stop overanalyzing everything. If I didn't say that, I meant it and it's what I want to do. I want to just enjoy being myself and stop changing every week because of things that change in my sitch. What I discovered a long time ago is that I am happiest just expressing my feelings, POSITIVE feelings for my W. The only reason I want to stop doing that is because we are separated or because she asks me to. So far neither has happened. I choose to stop because of feelings I had. I REACTED to my W's feelings and changed my whole way of doing things. I have to decide what works in my sitch and what does not, and so far, up until a couple weeks ago, what I was doing seemed to be working so long as I got out of my own way to let it.