Quote: HE initiated these things in order to regain my trust and show that I have nothing to worry about - that's what he told me when he did it. Your W doesn't seem to get that, as if you should just sweep it under the rug and trust her ... just because?
First of all, I think SHE thinks things like having her phone in the house and simply not going out at night anymore "prove" that the A is over and that I have nothing more to worry about. She is VERY reluctant to visit that as a topic of conversation.
Yes, she wants me to sweep it under the rug. She wants it to to away. I don't THINK I can do that, nor do I want to. I suppose there may be more "breaking" of things to happen if this continues. I really like how things feel right now. We FEEL like we are making progress but it may be an act. Like I said, she may be trying to MAKE herself do this instead of really wanting to. IF that's the case, rough times may be ahead.
In any event, short of some incident that get's the best of my emotions, I will probably ride this week out and see what happens. She keeps SAYING all the right things, and for the most part, DOING them too. The fact of the matter is that while she has committed once again to our M, she still has not said she is OM-free in terms of no contact, etc. This is where we (you all & I) will have to probably agree to disagree. I am NOT going to tell her that I will leave, stop talking to her, sell the ring, whatever, if she talks to OM. Will she need to stop 100%, yes, but I am not going to dictate that. I am watching VERY carefully and that watching IS causing resentment and anger in me, so I can't continue to watch forever, or really for much longer. If she can't commit to NO contact in a reasonable time, then maybe it's once again time to reevaluate my position.
Just because I bought her a ring does NOT mean I don't still consider my options open. It just means, at least to me, that I can prolong exercising those options until I see that her actions do or do not match her words.
Gonna probably be away for a bit still this week. I want to try to live a little of this without thinking so much about it.
Quote: Well, actually, her taking the initiative, even though it SEEMED a little aggressive the way I posted it, to talk to me about the phone thing was a LOT closer to empathy than she's had in the past. It's a step. She was clearly concerned that I was upset but still stuck in that place where she's going to blame ME for things that get me upset. I think she is realizing that she needs to change that approach.
I think this is important. We have spent a lot of time owning our issues, and when they come around, we can't help but to be ahead of them in this process and it will take time and effort for them to catch up. I think you are right in noting her efforts and shift in perspective.
Quote: She seems to "get" that she actually has to DO something
Good, then she just needs the time to figure out through trial and error exactly what those actions are. Or she could go out and buy a book
Quote: My W is clearly a taker and I am a giver. We are BOTH comfortable with that but since all this happened, I have realized that I want/need more from her and have told her just what I wanted.
I would hazard a guess that she NEEDS to become more of a giver for her own satisfaction in the R. I think that in order for her to feel more fulfillment from the R she needs to give more love through her actions. I think there needs to be a balance struck whereby both partners are reciprocating these roles functionally. Just because you can go without, and perhaps thrive on giving, doesn't mean that this is ideal.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: I would hazard a guess that she NEEDS to become more of a giver for her own satisfaction in the R. I think that in order for her to feel more fulfillment from the R she needs to give more love through her actions. I think there needs to be a balance struck whereby both partners are reciprocating these roles functionally. Just because you can go without, and perhaps thrive on giving, doesn't mean that this is ideal.
HELLLLLLLL YES. THANK YOU MUDDLE.
This is one of the biggest "light-bulb going on" moments I have had in my sitch lately. I KNEW this but it took you saying it now (I have heard this before in my sitch) to really drive it home.
I REALLY think she wants to give but I recognized through my C that I have rejected her SO many times, in SO many ways when she tried to "give" to me in the ways I want, that it may take a LONG time for her to get over HER fear of rejection.
To explain that a little more, after a few sessions, and when we first started talking about intimacy issues, my C started talking to me about how things normally went between W and I in terms of intimacy. We actually started talking about the bedroom first and from there, we saw the same pattern in almost ALL of our "intimate" encounters.
Because I like to give, and because I am/was TERRIBLY codependent, when my W would try to touch me in bed, I would resist, instead trying to "do" for her. I thought of it as a nice/good thing to do. Since I already thought of my W as a "taker" (a rold my C would later dispute a bit based on what she heard of our history), I figured she was just touching me to make me happy but would rather have me touch her instead. Since I didn't value my own pleasure/happiness as much as hers (f--ked up in hindsight) I figured we were both getting what we wanted.
I don't know how long this went on, her trying to "do" for me, or touch me, and me "rejecting her". I never saw it that way until C told me that's likely what W felt...damn, I see that now and that must have been REALLY hard for her, making her feel like I didn't like her to touch me, or that she was doing something wrong, when all I was trying to do was make her happy.
Like I said, that kind of thing was not exclusive the bedroom. Pretty much any sitch where one of us could do for the other physically, it was always me doing for her because EVEN WHEN I ASKED HER TO rub my back or whatever, I would stop her after a few seconds and either say "it's ok, I'm good" or actually start to rub HER back.
C said this dynamic, one of me constantly rejecting W, coupled with what seems like a low-ish self-esteem going into the marriage, probably made W TOTALLY self conscious and unwilling to enjoy our encounters.
I never got that at ALL. I was floored to realize that from my W's perspective, this is almost surely what my actions felt like. All this time I thought by me giving and her taking, since it seemed like we both liked those roles, that things were good.
I'm pretty sure OM didn't have any of those hang ups on "receiving" from my W and it's very likely that she really enjoyed being the giver instead of having a boy-servant always waiting to serve her without giving her any way to reciprocate. I am ok with that understanding and really think I can learn from it.
Muddle, thank you for pointing this out. I think that's why she was SO reluctant to cut my hair or shave for me, because first of all, I never ask her to do anything like that for me, and second of all, when I have in the past, I actually made her feel like she did it wrong by asking her to stop soon after she started.
The fact that I sat there and enjoyed the attention I think laid the first brick of her trust in ME that I will not ALLOW this to be one-sided anymore and beyond that, I will actually ask her for attention... and then LET her give it to me. I don't think you can understand how fundamental I believe this to be in my sitch, and how much I appreciate you for bringing it to the forefront again, where I think it will now stay for awhile.
My W DOES need to give and I have to allow her to do that.
Hi GH, It is absolutely wonderful to see you doing so great. It seems like you are really getting down to the core issues now, for YOU, your actions and behaviors and what you know needs to shift. These things will automatically cause your W to shift also, as you do. I think this giver/taker pattern is an important exploration. I see a LOT of progress in the last week or so. I am really excited for you, with what is unfolding. Keep up the good work. You know, I am rooting for you
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
Thanks PL. I know it maddens some of you that I take so much of this on my shoulders and really seem to let her off the hook. I assure you this is not the case. I just REALLY buy into the whole DB idea that changing MY part of the R dynamic can't help but to change hers, ESPECIALLY when it comes to the intimacy stuff.
OT and others, I KNOW she will have to carry her part of the load and I see signs now that she is comming around to that idea. I am going to try VERY hard to be patient and let this process work some more.
Thank you again for your support. It means the world to me.
Right on Gh! I too am a "doer". I always thought that by doing so many things to keep her stress level down I was being good and loving. In fact, as she pointed out, it made her feel like she wasn't a participating member of the family! I was always "fine", "I'm OK" etc. too. It is very difficult to make that change but when your "helping" is hindering the relationship then it s time for some change. GAL certainly helped me and I did offer to leave tasks for her but, funny, she never wanted to do them???. It's also maddening for the w because everyone is always telling her what a great husband she has, how can you be mad at such a great guy!He does everything for you. It creates resentment. So I like your willingness to accept your part. Way to go. Maybe that's your db'ing assignment, to let her do for you. We can't complain that someone doesn't do anything for us when we don't let them. Have a good break away from us.Unfortunately, we'll all probably be here when you get back next week!
Whatisis (and BTW, DAMNIT, I meant to leave!!! lol),
Quote: GAL certainly helped me and I did offer to leave tasks for her but, funny, she never wanted to do them???. It's also maddening for the w because everyone is always telling her what a great husband she has, how can you be mad at such a great guy!He does everything for you. It creates resentment.
I think, in my case at least, the "letting her do for me" part is almost exclusively for the intimacy/affection part of our R. I left TOO much for my W to "do" for me in terms of the house, kids, etc. I actually needed to pick up the slack on that end. I know she is a stay-at-home-mom but that is a REALLY hard job (trust me, I know. I've been with them alone for a day here and there...I love em, but God knows how she does it 24/7) and she deserves to get more from me in terms of help than I was giving.
So, like I said, in MY sitch, my W doesn't need me to leave her more to do in many other areas than personally stuff, mainly expressions of physical affection.
As for the great guy thing, well, I get that too, or should I say my W does. As you all know, I can do a great job of selling myself, i.e. to the rest of the world, I am a great H. Actually, I AM a great H, but my W sees sides of me that few other people (other than you all) ever see. I think when she tries to tell them, it sounds like whining, which it may be, but I know from my own introspection that she has a legit beef in a lot of cases... or she DID anyway.
Now I can wear my super-hubby cape with pride, lol. Kidding. Still a HUGE work in progress even to be a worthy side-kick let alone a super-hero.
I know your not here but I just had to say this. We are mirror images of eachother as far as intimacy goes:
Quote: I don't know how long this went on, her trying to "do" for me, or touch me, and me "rejecting her". I never saw it that way until C told me that's likely what W felt...damn, I see that now and that must have been REALLY hard for her, making her feel like I didn't like her to touch me, or that she was doing something wrong, when all I was trying to do was make her happy.
I NEVER let my H do anything that would give me pleasure. I somehow felt to guilty or that I didn't deserve it. I ALWAYS said, "That's ok, you don't have to do that - let me do this for you instead" BIG mistake, I see that now. This led my H to probably feel inadequate and not good enough. And this went on for years........
So yes, I will take my share of the blame in this dynamic. On the other hand I would have like it much better if he sat me down and told me how he felt so rejected instead of running to the arms of OW....
I WILL leave now with a little exchange I had with my W, which I posted before as part of a larger convo but I think it is important to pull it out of context here to address what you posted Mama.
M: Why can't you just talk to me about things that you KNOW are issues? W: I am not like that. I don't talk about things that much. I can't stand all that talking. It gives me a headache. I prefer to just SHOW you what I mean rather than tell you. M: Ok, but I am not a very good mind reader. W: You don't have to read minds, just pay attention every once in awhile.
I post this because your H and my W may share a similar trait in that they DON'T talk about these kinds of things. If anything, they will just DO and expect us to notice that. Sucks, but it's the truth.
At one point a couple months ago I spent some time talking to my W about the 'triggers' that would put me back into the hurt feelings I had during the affair.
Things like her cell phone ringing and she leaves the room to talk, or just in general her cell phone being the primary way she talked to OM. And when she reads her e-mail I feel veryuncomfortable. Thinkgs like that. She was considerate enough to understand that I wasn't jusy going to 'get over it' and that she should tell me who's calling sometimes and that it was OK for me to stand around her while she was reading e-mai because it made me feel 'safer'.
In other words SHE has to do some of these 'little things' to reassrue ME, the LBS that the old patterns are gone. And while she swears OM is a total A$$ and she will never talk to him again in her life (it's been 3 months since she told him to go away), she has promised me that IF he ever does call her she will tell me.
Your W needs to face the reality that these things have hurt you and it is up to HER to be sensitive to that.
