I keep trying to think of ways to help you, but it is hard. I understand what you’re up against. That codependency stuff can be used as a weapon to justify selfishness, just like a lot of that feminist talk (we could even throw in slavery for all that’s worth). Just keep standing up for you and throwing back her deflections. That seems to work best for you.
I’ll be gone on vacation for two weeks. I’ll try to keep up with the threads when I get a chance. Hang in there!
Quote: In light of the first quote, could it be that BB does not think that she is withholding anything from you, rather that she thinks she is allowing you to express some of your “abundance” and in that way, maybe she thinks her taking from you is what makes you happy? I can see this misinterpretation on her part since you repeat this behavior over and over. To me, and possibly BB, the thinking is that if you don’t like doing it, then you will stop. If you don’t stop, then you must like doing it.
This is very interesting... sort of like the trophy girlfriend who permits her millionaire sugar daddy to buy presents for her. It makes him happy to buy the presents and she doesn't see that she ever needs to reciprocate... after all, he has all the money. She feels she's actually doing him a favor to let him shower her with his abundance. She has no concept that he might expect any presents from her. Actually, using this example, if you went to the girlfriend and suggested that she might occasionally buy him a tie or something, she'd probably laugh her head off.
Lou: I can honestly say that it sounds like we are in the same exact boat, as far as how we want to approach our S and do things to enable a situation favorable to ours. I necessarily don't do this for validation from her; i just do it because i find it such a great way to express emotions that I have. I guess you can say that is a fault on my part.
One comment that Cobra made: In light of the first quote, could it be that BB does not think that she is withholding anything from you, rather that she thinks she is allowing you to express some of your “abundance” and in that way, maybe she thinks her taking from you is what makes you happy? I can see this misinterpretation on her part since you repeat this behavior over and over. To me, and possibly BB, the thinking is that if you don’t like doing it, then you will stop. If you don’t stop, then you must like doing it. Furthermore, if you don’t like it, not only will you stop, but you’ll say something about it too. Since you kept quiet, how is she to know you are doing something you don’t like? If I were in her shoes, I think I would have a hard time understanding your behavior too. Can you see this? This is exactly what the W does, reacts or feels (I assume). She thinks by allowing me to indulge in such activities (that I ABSOLUTELY LOVE) that get my motor running, that she is "allowing" me just another form of self-indulgence and that should be enough to satisfy the thirst, when in reality it just makes the thirst stronger for more. Yes, I have expressed and told her this, but it doesnt sink in that I really want to follow thru (and I do try!). My viewpoint: she just assumes thats always enough and if I can't take it or handle it, i would stop. My only response to that can be: why in the h-e-double-hockey sticks would i stop something that gets the juices flowing like that? its like bliss.
Moving on.... in my aging self, I am learning to get a better handle on such situations. I am learning when to call it quits. I am trying to teach myself a form of self-control in certain areas that I normally would let run free. So far, as I have said, the last week or so has had a positive turn-out from both sides... I may not understand it all, i may not agree with it all, and i find myself drifting back to the negative because reality doesn't match the fantasy in my head -- i just view all of this as a maturing process we all need to endure. it may always be this way and i may always have this struggle - but as long as i recognize this, i am half way thru the battle
Re Lil after all, he has all the money. I am going to add a little bit to that Lil. "after all, he has more money than she does and she was short changed earlier in life. It's her turn to receive more of the benefits and not have to work so hard for what she is getting..
RE N I can honestly say that it sounds like we are in the same exact boat, as far as how we want to approach our S and do things to enable a situation favorable to ours. How about a similar boat going across a lake at different times of the day.
This is exactly what the W does, reacts or feels (I assume). She thinks by allowing me to indulge in such activities (that I ABSOLUTELY LOVE) that get my motor running, that she is "allowing" me just another form of self-indulgence and that should be enough to satisfy the thirst, when in reality it just makes the thirst stronger for more. Another way to look at is Your W likes the attention or activity (you didn’t say exactly what you and here were doing) up to a point. She is willing to participate in the activity but only wants to play to a point.
It’s like she wants to play strip poker for the excitement but once she loses enough hands and has already taken her shoes and socks, maybe a belt, she had enough.
So, one way to look at some relationship activities, people play for the easy gifts but see no reason to do more than to take the easy wins. It is not too much different than going grocery shopping on a day when the store has people handing out samples for ten different popular foods. Just because I accept a sample, it does not obligate me to buy anything. Everyone knows that in a grocery store setting. I think the expectations of a spouse buying into something we are offering are higher in a relationship.
My viewpoint: she just assumes that’s always enough and if I can't take it or handle it, i would stop. Good point to ponder. Does she ever ask why you stop? If this stopping is something new to you, observe what happens when you stop sooner.
I rub BB’s back and feet w/o expecting much to happen sometimes. Sometimes I have clear goals in mind and expect to carry them out.
We had a “why did you stop” discussion a couple of times. One example was I said I felt that was all I had to give at the time. BB said she really liked what I was doing and asked me to keep going. I said no that time.
Other times when I stopped, BB asked why. I said if I was going to continue one of two things were going to happen. I said we will have sex or if she was going to be cranky about having sex and nothing happened, I was going to feel resentment/frustrations and I was trying to avoid that situation.
In the last case, BB said she wanted all of the back and foot rubbing but was not willing to have sex. This is what I referred to as someone willing to take all of the free samples, from many different approaches, as long as it didn’t involve much effort from them.
I may not understand it all, i may not agree with it all, and i find myself drifting back to the negative because reality doesn't match the fantasy in my head -- i just view all of this as a maturing process we all need to endure. it may always be this way and i may always have this struggle - but as long as i recognize this, i am half way thru the battle In another part of life, look at some of the free stuff given out in stores and other businesses.
I worked in a Super Gas Station in 1972. We were giving out Green Stamps with all purchases. We gave a free car wash (semi-automatic brush type of car wash equipment that took about 2 minuets) if the customer bought 8 or more gallons of gasoline. Some of out customers were on a monthly mailing list. They were sent a coupon for a free set of 4 insulated coffee mugs.
I couldn’t believe the attitude of some customers. If were giving this stuff away for free, we must not have much invested so they were entitled to it somehow. We even had people insisting the free car wash damages their car’s paint job and wanted the station to pay $300 to repaint this one guy’s car.
The Green stamps cost us .02 or .04 cents per dollars, The coffee cups might have cost .50 to .95 cents, the car wash equipment cost around $10,000 installed and about 0.25 to .40 cents per car to operate.
I am getting a little off the subject of when to stop but want to use the gas station experience as an example of how some people react to free-bees. They sometimes don’t realize what goes into the free stuff.
Business owners and most employees have different views of a business sometimes. Owners are looking at sales and profits, how to meet expenses, and get what is left over at the end of the month. Sometime what is left over is a large amount. Sometimes there is nothing left over so the owner just worked for free that month.
I see some employees that are talking about the next paid holiday, wondering what the bonus will be, and what other perks are available. I also see employees working hard for their pay check.
The difference is some employees don’t realize all the owner puts into a business that is not recorded on the employees pay stub.
I see this too in relationships. Someone cooks and cleans more than is appreciated. Someone puts more into the romantic or sexual part of a M than is appreciated. Someone gives good sex 10 points and the OS thinks good sex is only worth 2 points. It’s in the book “The 5 Love Languages”.
So N, think about are you giving more than you have and operating at a zero or deficit balance. Are you making good sex worth10 points and your W saying it is only a 2 point event?
N, I know I don't always appreciate what others put into all of the things thy bring to a R. I know I am more aware and make more effort to show my appreciation. It is difficult for me to see the lack of caring some spouses show for their mates efforts.
I am going to add a little bit to that Lil. "after all, he has more money than she does and she was short changed earlier in life. It's her turn to receive more of the benefits and not have to work so hard for what she is getting..
Good observation, Lou. But you know what? The sense of entitlement could come from different directions. On the one hand you have your example, a person-- BB-- who feels that she got shortchanged and so she's entitled to more now. But you might also have the Princess type who's always gotten what she wanted, and therefore still feels entitled...
OTOH a person with a generous spirit who was shortchanged in early life might be MORE generous now because they know how bad it feels to do without (I put you and me in that category) and a person who was treated like a Princess (or Prince) might feel so full of love and abundance that they would have no problem sharing without hope of return.
The thing I wonder is why the person who was shortchanged in early life and KNOWS how bad it feels can inflict deprivation on their partner... when they are aware that it can hurt.
Re Lil who feels that she got shortchanged and so she's entitled to more now. But you might also have the Princess type who's always gotten what she wanted, and therefore still feels entitled... Thanks for adding to the idea Lil. It makes sense.
OTOH a person with a generous spirit who was shortchanged in early life might be MORE generous now because they know how bad it feels to do without Absolutely. My heart did a number when I read that.
The thing I wonder is why the person who was shortchanged in early life and KNOWS how bad it feels can inflict deprivation on their partner They still feel other people have it easier/more abundance than they do is one thing I see, or in my case a personality (Lou) willing to go without some frills.
What i am doing for her: things like body massages, romantic baths (w/ candles and incense), house chores she might normally does, letters in the mail from an anonymous person, etc. are all things that really get me movin, especially when their is a response. Obviously, the things that involve body's touching (like the body massage) take me to another world.... where i want to take it further, almost always just because - uhh... i am young, dumb and full of --- you can figure that out
Now, if i were to stop on the body massages -- i would only get questioned if she wasnt ready to be done, but in most instance, i know i do it long enough to never have that happen. if in the event i do stop early (has happened), i simply explain why -- and thats because i know where this will lead from my perspective and quite frankly, i am not in the mood to be shot down or turned away, which is i know what will happen since you are laying there telling me how relaxed, i.e. tired, you are. AND I DO NOT DO THIS EVERY TIME TO GET WHAT I WANT.... THERE ARE TIMES I DO IT OUT OF LOVE....
in any event, i am only moving on because i realize i really dont have a choice in the matter. to destroy more then just our lives (the kids) over something like this, as i have said in the past, i can deal w/ this for their sake.
luckily for me, the last week has been improved in all aspects. i am trying to stay positive and reward the good behavior by doing little extra somethings for the W... and i can only say that if there was something i did not like, or could not handle or agree with, that i would state my case and move on.
i only hope she recognizes now what was missing, and as i said, it appears as if she has gotten it (at least a little)
You said (What i am doing for her: things like body massages, romantic baths (w/ candles and incense), house chores she might normally does, letters in the mail from an anonymous person, etc. are all things that really get me movin)
Ok...you've discussed that she lets you do things right? You just said the things you mentioned are things that get YOU movin. So what are things that get HER movin.
What I heard in that statement is that you speak your own love language to her....you don't speak hers. You do the things that YOU would respond to for her, expecting her to react the same way you would? Am I reading that correctly?
If so...what does she respond to? What are things that....when you do them she' voices her appreciation for, or gets chatty about, or appears happy about?
I'm thinking that sure, she may LET you do those other things because...heck maybe she feels entitled, maybe she feels like you want to do that so she goes with it. But (while many women would love the type of attention you give your W)....that attention doesn't trip everyone's trigger. Think back...what was something you did that she got excited about (in a nice way)?
you put me on the spot and to tell you the truth, i can not tell you what gets her going because well, she has never really told me. i mean, i do sit there and ask her to describe some fantasy, or describe ways that get her going, yet i never get anything concrete that i can sit there and follow or say, yeah, i know i can do this and it will seal the deal for us. and i have tried direct approaches, indirect approaches (in conversation, in passing, in letters -- asking her to respond via letter, etc.)
so i guess i got some detective work to do. i mean, when someone doesnt share with you what gets the motor running, you are left to guessing. So.... I pull out everything under the sun until i find that one thing - haven't found it yet, eventhough, as i said, this past week has been much improved, so ummmm - maybe i stumbled onto something?!
who knows, this just throws my brain into a tizzy because its very frustrating from my point of view
