Then i realized W was more interested in watching the end of the show more then me. it was devestating to me because she was allowing me to do some of the things that i couldnt do for so long, yet it did nothing for her (you could tell since she was glued to the tube); so i stopped - cold turkey, just stopped (that was so damn hard)
To me, this seems to sum up so much of your problems. Your confidence and sense of self is SOOOOO dependent on your W. If she accepts and validates you, then things are on top of the world. If she denies you, then you are in the pits. Why do you allow her to have so much control over how you feel, what you think of your marriage, what you think of how she feels about you and on and on.
If your kids get upset with you, and for sake of argument, let’s say they got really mad and said they hate you or don’t want to see you, do you go into a funk and want to leave, want to stop seeing them, do you act like you do when your wife does the same thing? I’m sure the answer is no. So why the difference?
The answer is not that they are kids and you know they don’t mean it (though that is true), but rather than you are not as enmeshed with them to confirm back to you who you are. You know you are the parent and they need YOU to model a proper image rather than the other way around. When they react, you know full well they do so out of their own issues, their own frustrations, hurts, fears, etc. You don’t take it personally, right?
So why do you react differently with your wife. The fact that she is your lover is different, but with regard to how you feel about yourself, it should make no difference. Have you ordered the Schnarch book yet?
i dont know why i let the W rule my moods like that. Its on the "to work on" list for me. i might have overstated a bit the overall impact it had on me. i mean, i was disappointed and deflated but it most certainly didnt put me in the dumps like i have been. i just expressed my disappointment and moved on so to speak.
I will say you are right, i dont get that way w/ the kids - and believe me, they do have that tendency of talking back and being nasty at times. i tend to ignore that aspect from them
Your logic doesn't apply to her, because it is how YOU think....not necessarily how SHE thinks. You have control over certain elements that surround the two of you when you ML. If the tv is on....and it's been proven a distraction, turn it off. Just because it doesn't distract you...doesn't mean it won't distract her. That is EXACTLY why our tv goes off if we start messing around any....it's always a distraction to my H. So I simply turn off that distraction.
I guess the way I see this one is well...Andy, you shot yourself in the foot. Things were going well, you were in fact getting to do things you wanted to do....and you got your feelings hurt because she was paying attention to the tv....when well, you could have avoided those hurt feelings probably by something as simple as hitting a remote control button. See what I'm saying? YOU WERE getting to do things you enjoy....yet YOU let something stop the fun.
This is no small matter. It is the very core of your problems. Well, maybe not the core. The core is all those FOO issues that cause you to have the low self esteem and to be so enmeshed with your wife. Your sense of self is the manifestation of those issues. This is where the rubber meets the road.
Schnarch will help explain some of this. I think you will also need to learn about your codependency, which Schnarch does not go into. He explains how your codependency interacts in your relationship and how you need to stop that interaction. Curing the codependency and looking into your FOO is outside the book. So you might start by looking into your past to review how your parents, or others, treated you, put you down, abused (verbally or otherwise) or abandoned you( literally or emotionally) and why you are so needy.
I am a little reluctant to start up this topic since after today I will be on vacation for two weeks and won’t be able to reply much (though I will try to read posts on my Palm). But this is very important for you, so I bring it up.
Re N this is good until because for once it just seemed right. Then i realized W was more interested in watching the end of the show more then me. it was devastating to me because she was allowing me to do some of the things that i couldn't do for so long, Sounds like my house. Do you think we are twins, married to twins?
yet it did nothing for her (you could tell since she was glued to the tube); N did you ever think that some people are takers and some people are givers. Your W or you can like all of the things you were doing and be interested in the TV.
I think I have a W like that, wants attention from me, is interested in the TV program, and she gets a lot of satisfaction out of petting the dog while all of this is going on. Not much comes back to me at that time or even later.
What you might have had was your W getting stimulation from two sources while you got little in return. BTDT myself too many times till I am drained.
My W/BB keeps asking me why I quit my above description of her getting and me getting little back. She said she it makes her feel so good but can't see how it warrants much recripication. Takers N, is my opinion.
so i stopped - cold turkey, just stopped (that was so damn hard) You are 100% right, it's hard N. I have the same problem and feelings. I even told BB she seemed to be here for the free samples but rarely wants to buy anything or pass out free samples from her bag of rewards to me. Her samples mostly go to her 3 dogs.
she got preoccupied with something else (the TV), so I obviously wasn't doing something right N, you could have been doing almost everything right. Some people place a much higher or lower value on physical touch or what ever you were doing. Some people get caught up in what is going on in their mind and because what they are receiving, it is looked at with an entitlement mind (in a small or large way) they are getting what they deserve in their minds, and are disconnected to most or any thoughts of what you need or want. So forget about the "you weren't doing something right. Some people expect free gifts, expect large gifts, and expect gifts frequently.
In my case, BB thinks I like to do things for her or it is easy for me to do something, therefore, I have all of this abundance and I have to make little effort to give them to her.
On her part, she sees herself as short on ability and with limited resources so she feels she shouldn't have to give much. She also places a higher value on what she gives than most people do.
No, I am not guessing. Got it from her mouth and body language.
Does any of this fit your situation or help N.
Right now I am in with-draw or not giving mode. It is difficult but a necessary step. I am still doing basic things for and with BB.
This is a difficult thing to do coming from a background of the more you work, the more you get. That works in a business world where there are short-term contracts, that if not adhered to, anyone can move on.
In long-term contracts, the starting and stopping points are not as clear. You might say so and so is short here but I understand why and play this out till the situation becomes really out of balance. Then what do do you do?
i was happy that i stood my ground on this one. .... she realized where i was coming from because she made it clear where her attention was devoted once i started up the conversation Do it more and maybe you two will gradually solve some problems.
Lou: what you said definitely helped from the sense that i feel this is, more and more, normal. I mean, we are not the only ones experiencing this. Not to mention, what you said:
I think I have a W like that, wants attention from me, is interested in the TV program, and she gets a lot of satisfaction out of petting the dog while all of this is going on. I never thought of things from that perspective because i was so engulfed in her, and my own needs (what I was getting -vs- not getting). I failed to take a step back and see things for what they were/are.
Now I didnt get all of that from our conversation afterwards, but i can tell, by looking back on it, it makes a bit more sense. I just have to be more aware of whats around me to make the situation a positive one and then if it doesn't work, continue down the road I am on.
Quote: On her [BB's] part, she sees herself as short on ability and with limited resources so she feels she shouldn't have to give much. She also places a higher value on what she gives than most people do.
This is insightful, Lou. Kind of like some people, when you go out to lunch, never have money with them. They're broke so someone else should ALWAYS pay. They don't see that it's not fair. Their thinking is, "well if I don't have money or don't have money with me, then YOU should pay. YOU have money. I don't. But on those rare occasions where I DO pay, it should count for so much more, because I am usually broke."
N I think I have a W like that, wants attention from me, is interested in the TV program, and she gets a lot of satisfaction out of petting the dog while all of this is going on. When I did this IRL, I couldn't see how BB could be so much like a sponge. The more I rubbed her back and feet, the more she wanted it. Then to have her pet the dogs and tell them how much she loved them and not tell me or show something in return except to say "that was nice, (the back rub) I am going to sleep" was beyond belief. I did this for several weeks off and on for a couple of years and and sometimes 3 nights in a row. I couldn't believe she was so in another world.
I think some people are like that, especially if they never had to work hard for much of the things they have and see other people as not working hard but just lucky. My W wants to be one of the "lucky ones" too.
As I post this I really want to do things for BB so I get some of the things I want. I know it doesn't work so stay away on purpose and work on customer's jobs. I am just letting you know it's difficult to do so don't get discouraged.
Like Cobra and others said, try not to let a lack of attention or appreciation from your W, define who you are. Just between you and me, we are both screw ups on some things, not perfect enough in other things, but over all fairly good. We try to improve a situation by adding to it but some of the contributions are not properly labeled or valued, so try something else or point out the discounting you feel is going on.
Glad you responded to that comment. It is one end of the pole. Lou’s other comment is the other end:
In my case, BB thinks I like to do things for her or it is easy for me to do something, therefore, I have all of this abundance and I have to make little effort to give them to her.
Lou,
With that kind of thinking, it makes a little more sense to me why BB acts as she does. But it also puts some of the responsibility back on you. Sure, she “should” know better to think like this, but if she will do whatever is easiest and do whatever she can get away with, then I see your responsibility as setting the type of boundaries that do not allow this sort of interpretation. Her thinking that you have such “abundance” to give was partly conditioned in her mind by you.
Then to have her pet the dogs and tell them how much she loved them and not tell me or show something in return except to say "that was nice, (the back rub) I am going to sleep" was beyond belief.
In light of the first quote, could it be that BB does not think that she is withholding anything from you, rather that she thinks she is allowing you to express some of your “abundance” and in that way, maybe she thinks her taking from you is what makes you happy? I can see this misinterpretation on her part since you repeat this behavior over and over. To me, and possibly BB, the thinking is that if you don’t like doing it, then you will stop. If you don’t stop, then you must like doing it. Furthermore, if you don’t like it, not only will you stop, but you’ll say something about it too. Since you kept quiet, how is she to know you are doing something you don’t like? If I were in her shoes, I think I would have a hard time understanding your behavior too. Can you see this?
This makes me wonder how much of your desire for intimacy in your relationship is directed into a fantasy in your mind, that instead needs to be directed into honest verbal communication that she can understand? If that is true, then your withdrawing may not be the answer. You have done this before, and best I can recall, it is usually you who calls the truce. I keep thinking she sees each of these withdrawals you do as some sort of male moodiness or emotionality that she attributes to your willing-to-serve-others, good-hearted nature. What may be needed is more frequent and open communication. Doesn’t she complain that this is a major problem?
Re cobra In light of the first quote, could it be that BB does not think that she is withholding anything from you, rather that she thinks she is allowing you to express some of your “abundance” and in that way, ...............If I were in her shoes, I think I would have a hard time understanding your behavior too. Can you see this? The whole post is a possibility, a good part reality.
fantasy in your mind, that instead needs to be directed into honest verbal communication that she can understand? Cobra, I did say how I thought she was here mostly for the free-bees.
She said if I don't want to give freely and want something in return, I should quit. So I have quit doing some more things for a week.
Like I was telling N, it is not easy suppress this desire to feel like connecting with someone, but keep it in check.
Doesn’t she complain that this is a major problem? Yes she complains. Some of this withdrawing feels like P/A. Some feels necessary for self preservation. Some is better than trying to work things out but wind up in the same cheese-less tunnels again.
What I want is to talk with BB and not go back to "well You did x back in ???? or her often used "I's (she) is too old for that sort of thing, and another one of her "she always gets the short straw" and she isn't going to settle anymore.
I tell you cobra, that co-dependency crap and her idea people use her has done a number on her. Part of this week-end it was all about her and she needs to do her thing, and screw some other selfish people.
Right now I am going over ways to come out of withdraw w/o feeling like I am giving in or was being an a$$. Maybe I could word this last paragraph better but have to go for now.
