that could work.... i guess one other concern i have doing this - as this is how i can be - is that i shut down socially do a degree... turn inward. i will say i could find myself saying nothing more times than not, which can be a bad thing... it is something to work with though. thanks
Well Andy...you could use that same method if you find yourself turning inward as well. I will say that my H used to simply not too much, in his mind it was an attempt to not hurt my feelings. As a result, back then I felt dismissed, unheard and ignored. So do try to not do that too much.
I hear ya and completely understand. But I see two problems in what you are saying in your last few posts:
1.You say you are the helper by nature in all that you do. This is both good and bad. As long as you give without expecting anything in return, then it is an asset. But I hear you expressing resentment that you do not get anything back. So either stop giving so much or stop expecting anything back in return.
2. You assumed that an older woman would be more straightforward and do not play the “head games” other younger woman do. You also say to Corri that “i want what i want, when i want it.” I don’t see how this could be a recent change in your personality, but something that has always been a part of you. That means your wife probably knew this about you when you got married. Yet at that time she still did not play the “head games.” So what I wonder is which of the following is true: a) she is not too bright and just doesn’t get your needs, or b) she knows enough not to play “head games” and uses a more advanced form of “head games” which you are just now coming to realize.
So maybe your frustration has to do in part with your understanding that you do not control her as much as you think you do (that she probably control you instead), that you may be the one with the more immature “head games” and you are now trying to grow out of it, and this loss of control is setting your world spinning. My point is maybe you are not really losing any control at all, that little has really changed, except how you see things. So to her, everything is fine, just as it has always been. It is your perspective that is changing and so your perception of the control you have is undergoing an awakening. You probably have as little control now as you ever did, but you just didn’t realize it years ago.
So rather than get all twisted up on what she is doing to you (by not being attentive to your needs, by her becoming more selfish, etc), first rule out the possibility that the recent changes aren’t only within you. If you want to talk to her about this stuff, you need to be clear about what each of you have or have not done. To falsely accuse her of neglecting you will only tick her off. She will assume you are just projecting your issues onto her. And she will be right. So I would do that internal check first.
I also get a lot of ego issues with you. The self assuredness of youth is coming to a reality check of its own. She is not playing into your enmeshment needs and that is bothering you. All this talk about how you have pumped yourself up and are now more attractive than ever is just a bunch of narcissistic self flattery. Nothing wrong with what you did (in fact I think EVERYONE should workout regulary), but as soon as you expect her to appreciate your new body, you will have problems. Stay in shape for YOU. Do not expect anything from her. That only creates resentment, doesn’t it?
I’m also thinking back to some of my earlier comments to you. It seems to me your wife has not changed much since you two got married. However I think you have changed dramatically. In a way you are rewriting the marriage contract. You are not what she originally married and since she is not changing with you, you are complaining. Could she be reacting in a passive-aggressive manner, due in part to low self esteem, and rather than take up the challenge to improve herself, she just pulls back into her own cave and resists your requests to workout and become more involved in life in general? Now don’t get me wrong. She has an obligation to grow as the marriage grows, or the marriage will not last. But change is threatening, and since you are the one changing, you are the threatening one, at least to her. There needs to be a compromise. You need to meet each other in the middle. She needs to get up off her duff, and you need to back off your macho man thinking.
Your days of having women flock over you as a beef-cake stud have passed. If you didn’t get the chance to do so in your younger days, well… that’s life. Stop looking back and trying to relive the fantasies of your youth. Your marriage and your happiness lies in the present and the future. Do not expect her to change into something she is not in order to satisfy your ego. I think you are trying to push her into a decision to be someone she is not, in order to avoid confronting that fact that your time has passed for you to be who you have always dreamed of being. There are plenty of more mature and sophisticated ways to be a real stud. I’m sure the women on this board can fill you in on their ideas, ideas that your wife might share…..
I am going to have to learn the fine line of not expecting something in return or stop giving so much... that will just be a part of my growth process
the, "i want what i want, when i want it" has always been a part of my personality - can not hide that or say any different. and i am not placing blame, but for the fun of it - its my parents fault - hehe. i guess some of it has flourished as i changed - not that this was a good change, it was just something that happened during the course. the intensity i showed in situations picked up.
i would like to think this is not about control... its just about me getting a better understanding of my needs as I have grown as a person. yes, my viewpoint has changed as i have changed. i just look back on that and say it was a natural progression that has occurred as i have aged. i am sure part of my problem was thinking that my new body would cure some of what ailed us, when in reality it didnt. it just made me a bit more self-centered in the sense that, i thought: i am young and i feel that all of this is a physical issue (easily cured by what i did), whereas now i am finding out a good bit of our problems were a combination of physical, emotional, spiritual deficiencies. i also realize the physical portion is the last to fix itself - so again, me needs to learn patience
i would agree that some/most of my complaining is coming from me changing and not seeing any change on her part. there is no one to really blame on this, at least right now. but i agree that in order for the M to grow, both parties need to change, and change together and i guess that is where a fear comes in - that we are growing apart.
i had plenty of chances when i was younger, which is kinda why when we met, i knew i was ready for seriousness. I didnt just pull my older women mentality thing out of the air - hehe. as time wore on i felt she was the right one, things were going pretty well and we worked extremely well together. a lot of my success personally and professionally i owe to her.
again, thanks for the insight and lecture (relax, i know it wasnt a lecture - hehe).
Andy, I suggest you skim through my "Safety" thread... I bumped it up to the top. There's a bunch of quotes and excerpts from some great sources. Very thought-provoking. Here's some stuff I found on control-- kinda scary:
Quote: The new communication book ("Saying What's Real" by Susan Campbell) I've been reading has brought up some really interesting things.
The topic comes up here (and elsewhere) often regarding whether a person is “controlling.” Usually by that we mean that one person is trying to control or “manipulate” another person.
But this book offers a much broader definition of control, which I think is very thought-provoking. The author includes in her definition trying to control not just the other person, but the outcome of the conversation, your own feelings, the other person's feelings, and, well, anything. Her premise is that you just have to step up and say what you want to say without ANY expectations or attempt to influence the outcome, and in full knowledge that the other person may respond in any way at all. To put any "spin" on your comments in the effort to control the outcome, she calls "controlling." QUITE interesting! I imagine this idea will raise some hackles… it did on me until I thought about it some.
Here’s a quote from the book: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ”Unmasking the intent to control”
In my opening paragraph, I mentioned that every communication has an intent behind it. Most of us do not have the knowledge, the skill, or the confidence to address the often hidden intent of another’s communication—especially if the intent has something to do with trying to control an unknown outcome or trying to mask one’s anxiety about feeling ‘not in control.’
People try to manipulate the outcome of their interactions all the time. And if they’re not doing that, they’re trying to bolster their egos by acting more in control of or ‘on top of’ the situation than is actually the case. In my research, I discovered that most human communication comes from the (usually unconscious) intent to control.
Most of us are not aware of when we are communicating with the intent to control and when we are expressing our feelings and thoughts simply to exchange information.
The intent to control reveals itself in many disguises: <And I guess if you want to split hairs, all of these are essentially dishonest…for those of you who consider honesty to be important.>
*Denying that you feel pain when you’re hurting
*Trying to impress others <This is me through and through. I do this with my bf all the time. I’m always trying to impress him, get his attention, get some affirmation or kudos from him—and I do it on this board, too.>
*Manipulating to get what you want
*Being nice or agreeable to avoid a hassle
*Lying to protect someone’s feelings
*Assuming your know something that you really cannot know, instead of living with the uncertainty of the situation (e.g jumping to conclusions or making assumptions about what someone else’s behavior means)
*Keeping silent to avoid conflict
*Playing it safe
*Trying not to rock the boat
*Trying to appear more ‘together’ or composed than you really feel
As you look down this list, you’ll notice that all of these things have something to do with avoiding uncomfortable feelings (e.g. anxiety about not feeling in control) or avoiding an unwanted outcome. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lil again: There's a whole chapter on wanting ... I'm someone who learned not to want. The chapter is too long even for me to quote , but she talks about how we must ask for what we want even if we think or know we won't get it. Asking in itself is a good exercise, a good process, and living with the resulting disappointment teaches us that we CAN live even if we don't get what we want. Asking is an act of trust and those muscles need to be exercised.
Here's a couple more really thought-provoking quotes from the book: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- It's just as controlling to try to protect someone from knowing your true wants as it is to beat them over the head with your wants. A want is only a want. It is not a command or an order. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Allowing yourself to want whatever you really want is an excellent way to affirm how innocent and noncontrolling the state of wanting really is. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Lil again: IOW when we allow ourselves to want, we really get in touch with how little control we have over anything outside of ourselves, and she's saying that this is a good thing for us to know about the world. She says that it's good for us to learn that we can feel disappointed and still survive and that we can disappoint others and still survive. So many of these modalities and books point to the same thing: that we aren't really "damaged" by feeling bad although it's the thing we seem to resist the most. All of these books are telling us that we need to proceed honestly, innocently, and spontaneously ("Become as little children" perhaps?) into the world-- that that is how we will function best and be the happiest, even if the world responds indifferently or unkindly.
Re Neanderthal I am going to have to learn the fine line of not expecting something in return or stop giving so much Neanderthal, I have been in your shoes. Lots of people think giving is the answer to a problem. sometimes it is and sometimes it isn't.
Too often one's giver gives out to the point of exhaustion and even mental damage.
I didn't just pull my older women mentality thing out of the air - hehe. as time wore on i felt she was the right one, things were going pretty well and we worked extremely well together BTDT too.
I wanted to say some of the things in your posts and their replies apply to me, so keep posting. Your thread is helping more people than just you.
Lou/any one: what does BTDT stand for? i searched and couldnt find....
to your reply: thinking a bit more, ya know, ya kinda realize that the HD person can in many ways create this very situation (exhaustion/mental damage) to the LD person w/out ever realizing it.... i think i am - thats a scary thought for what that represents (dont ask, cause i cant explain yet )
in any event i have read a few more posts elsewhere (didnt get thru the book post yet above - hehe) and also agree w/ some HD perspectives where sometimes the relunctance creates an even more HD trait to show... again, something to control.
as to why i changed the heading... because the last 2 days have been drastically improved from my perspective (to a degree), yet i still think i screwed this up. yep - leave it to me... so this is what its been like lately:
the days have been filled w/ good conversation, very playful comments as well from time to time (Even while we worked - which was somethng that has not happened in a very very long time - cant remember the last time we were like that).
even when its time to be parents, do our thing - its been fun, nice, exciting and well, not near as dreadful or tiring. i guess its because the days have been nicer - its been nicer to come home. all in all - things have been improved the last 2 days EXCEPT (you knew this was coming):
i still have yet to experience the simple things i have craved for so long and this is where i think i screwed up. the nights have been great, everything except what was done has been great. have i tried some basic things? yes. have i called her on it? yes. was i still denied? on those things, yes, but heres the difference, which i am not taking well (cause me a neanderhal) - just because its been so long -- she is having some female issue (she told me when i called her on it)which has gone on for at least a wk now and well, she says its not makin her feel great about things. its very obvious to me, so i am not going to force or blame her for not wanting to. (i know this is mean, but, its been so long - I DONT CARE!). in the end, everything else is fun - so i go along with it all. the ML is nice and you can tell she cares. i just question whether i should have gone thru with it? i mean everything felt so different i figured what the heck, lets take her word for it and see if it remains different when her problem is over (whenever that will be, we really dont know - its been an issue before). come to think of it, its been an issue since i have issues. <ruh-roh, dont yell at me gang>
I mean, i just sit here, feeling down - thinking, what else do i have to do? she has told me that if it werent for this, that it wouldnt be a big deal. it is ALL HER, none of it me.
i dont know if i believe her, but with the way the last 2 days go - i am inclined to. i am just flustered beyond all BLEEPIDITY BLEEP!
yes i have explained all this to her -it is plain as day to her what i been missing/wanting and she seems happy to oblige if it werent for her thing.... so.... ugh - just another rock in the road i guess -- more like a boulder. i just got to keep reminding myself not to do something stupid!
IF she's having a legitimate female problem (and if she is she needs to get checked out by her OBGYN), don't go there man. I know you are having your own cravings right now, but IF she truly is having some female issues...put her health before your sexual needs.
Now don't think I'm sitting here going...damn what a jerk for saying "I don't care!"...I'm not, BTDT myself with my H (when he discovered he had a double hernia). BUT you have the ability to put this in perspective and know....it's not YOU she's rejecting. Focus on the things that ARE working right now to help you through this time, what you are referring to at the moment (the fun, relaxed moments, not dreading coming home)...that's the EC starting to take place between the two of you.
Remember...you can't have everything at once, regardless of the outcome one issue at a time has to be addressed...the EC MUST be the first.
Try to take some consolation that you are beginning to see some changes and hang in there man!! I know you are primarily just venting on here, just trying to give you some constructive feedback.
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