ok - busy night and morning.... but in a nutshell to answer the most recent responses: I HAVE expressed what I wanted, what I liked.... I tried various methods/approaches. I tried the ignore and plow method... I have tried every scenario under the sun. I have talked to her, and talk to her, and wrote to her.... I have talked to female friends to get their viewpoint (as I am doing here) and they are at a loss - I am at a loss. I have literally tried it all (except reading peace between the sheets - i know, i need to order - wasnt at book store last night).
as far as me finding something that I would find repulsive -- well, i am still trying to find that one thing. i am pretty open... so I cant even apply this to my situation and say, ahh - thats the magic line to at least understand whats happening.
yes, i need to stop personalizing the rejection as it really has nothing to do w/ me or my performance. the fact of the matter though, is that i personalize it because it hurts, it sucks and its been going on for some time.
i am with someone i love dearly and would do anything and everything for, yet, i dont sense the same devotion - its "i will only go so far and you will just need to accept that." well, news flash: i cant. no, maybe can't, but i find it very unacceptable, especially if you really do love someone. (yes, i realize i opened up again to be pounded pretty good - thats me Neanderthal, fits me good)
i am bitter and have been for 2 days now... sorry.
Quote: as far as me finding something that I would find repulsive -- well, i am still trying to find that one thing. i am pretty open... so I cant even apply this to my situation and say, ahh - thats the magic line to at least understand whats happening.
Some people are turned on by having their sexual partners urinate on them. I don't know about you but that's way over my line. I'm sure you could come up with something if you thought hard enough.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
Do you show this bitter side to your wife or do you protect her from it?
I found that I had to get friggin mean before any progress started happening. Why, I don't know...I could analyze it to death and still be only speculating, as I'm not inside his head. However, letting it all hang out was absolutely critical. If I tried to protect him and soften the blow, he seemed to assume that it wasn't as bad as he originally thought and immediate action wasn't necessary. Sorry for the military tone--I am reading a play-by-play book of the Civil War and I'm glued to it. Never knew anything about fighting and battles before, though I was a history major and married to an ex-Marine. I didn't know how they lined up for battles, etc. Fascinating!
Anyway, my point is to let this bitter, fed up side of you show and don't wimp out and start worrying about her feelings. Let her feelings be what they are without you trying to control the outcome.
that is crossing the line, so i wont offer or ask or any of that, however, if the W came home and said this is what i wanted (the urinating)... it would completely get her off -- ya know what, for her (her only) i would go along with it.
problem is, I KNOW FOR A FACT SHE WILL NOT -- so why even go there. yes, i know you can apply that to other acts that are at the heart of the issue here.... however, the other acts we are talking about, to me, are normal experiences and exposures - you shouldnt be deprived of them
Ah, well. You are going to have to lose the anger and resentment, too, or anything you try to do is going to come across as a 'barter and trade' attempt.
I know it is really hard for HDs to understand why their partners feel reserved or inhibited with sex... or that they don't even desire sex <gasp>!!... so...
It does really suck to be the HD in the partnership...
Let me ask you something. Just as a for instance, but let's say that your wife had a phobia about leaving the house. Her phobia was so strong she just couldn't bring herself to leave it.
Now... I am sure you would have all kinds of great empathy for her, you would want to help her any way you could, etc., etc. You would understand very clearly that her fear is not your problem, but her fear is affecting your life, because the two of you can't go anywhere together. There would be great stuggle involved for both of you... her with her fear... you with watching her take one step forward, and then two steps back.
In this scenario I think you can plainly see separation of the problem. If you started hounding your wife about getting outside... or trying to push her out the door... you can see how that might make it worse, not better... it would almost seem cruel...
However. You have a life. And while you have great empathy for your wife's phobia, YOU don't want to live the rest of your life in the house. She, at some point, has to pluck up her courage, get help, and face her fear.
She won't do that if you coddle her, either. And when I say coddle, that means sparing her feelings, giving in when she throws a temper tantrum, not holding her to her promises...
You don't have to be mean or forceful about it, but you must make it very clear to your wife that you have no intention of living the rest of your life in a sexless marriage. It's not up to you to address her problem for her...it's up to you to hold that line, firmly and lovingly. You can be encouraging, you can be empathetic... but not so much so that you get sucked back in to backing off YOUR wants and needs.
Right now... you feel angry and resentful because you think she holds all the cards. And she does... but it's because YOU handed them to her. While that is frustrating situation, I think it is completely unfair that you are getting angry at your W for holding all the power when it is YOU who gave it to her in the first place. See?
Look... you cannot FIX your wife. You cannot FIX your M. Stop trying. You can, however, FIX yourself. If you change enough, and effectively enough, she will change. She has no choice.
Venting is fine. I understand the need for it. But then you have to get to work... and most of the work you are going to be doing is on YOU, not her or your M.
Have you read through the other threads I mentioned to you early in this thread? You say you have tried everything with your wife, and in so doing, I think you are doing the same thing. In other words, I think you have conditioned her to expect a new approach each day to get her to change. So no matter what you do, she knows it is all the same. Your focus is on her and she is not going to budge. You also confirm her outlook by backing off and trying a new approach. So she is still in the drivers seat, sitting back and watching you go through the motions. If you go too far, she calls you on it and you jump. From her eyes, I think she believes she has you pretty well trained. So if I were her, I would think the relationship is prefect too.
I think you should also read the threads by Fighting4Wife. I see some similarities with you. Both you and he complain about the intransigence of your wives. Both of you (actually me too) have tried many ways to convey how uncompromising she is, how we are doing all the work, trying to save the marriage, blah, blah, blah….. The fact of the matter is that Fighting4Wife, myself, and I suspect you too, are really trying to offload our own fears of abandonment onto our wives, making it their responsibility to change in order to suit our needs, to give us comfort, to sooth our fears.
If she does not want to change, then you need to face a decision, whatever that may be. Pressuring her, trying all sorts of approaches, is your way of avoiding having to make this decision. The very worst case would be something like leaving the relationship. I see this on one end of the scale. Her changing and you not having to change is on the other end of the scale. There are other plenty of outcomes in between these two extremes, but you are not likely to get all that you want.
So what this seems to boil down to is the fear of each of you facing your own issues over vulnerability, cloaked in a power play. As long as this dynamic is not recognized and the underlying issues not addresses, my guess is that each of you will slowly harden your positions. Since you don’t have kids, the chances are higher for divorce. (But I wouldn’t even THINK about bringing kids into the marriage to force you two to stay together!)
Think there may also be a lot of things about you that she does not like. I have not heard you mention any of that. Care to fill us in on her complaints? I also recommend you pick up a copy of Passionate Marriage by Schnarch.
I think Corri's phobia analogy was good and you could kind of combine it with my "waterworks" example. You could empathize with your wife's agoraphobia by realizing that there are things that you are afraid of like poisonous spiders, even though most people are afraid of poisonous spiders. If you considered how a calm, cool, collected and caring spider trainer might teach you to handle spiders and greatly lessen your fear then that is probably how you should approach the sexual issues with your wife. Unfortunately, it is dead hard not to personalize this issue so it takes a long, long time and a lot of work to get to the place where you can be as effective as the spider trainer. Also, the fact of the matter is that few of us HD folks are actually experts on the subject at hand like the spider trainer so it is hard to be completely confident especially when your partner's sexuality is of the opposite gender. So seeking information from other women like you are is a good step.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
we do have kids, 2... so yes - that is one of the glues holding this together right now. i have read thru almost every post around here. i am trying to suck up information (me like a sponge -- maybe my next name - spongebob squarepants ).
i can see where the approaches differ but the end result (or attempt at it) remains the same... so, obviously something needs to give.
i also agree, to an extent, that some of this offloading is because of the fear of abandonment, acceptance, etc. on my part.
as far as complaints on me, as far as i know, they have been few. the ones that she has told me about, i have worked extremely hard in correcting and i felt i have made progress, yet again, i dont see much of a change in her approaches towards anything. i guess that is where some anger and resentment come from for me.
yes, i have decisions i can make - none of them being pretty in my book. and i am at fault for giving her this power. i guess some of my fear now is if i start calling her on it, it will just drive us even further apart since it almost caused a split up once before...
I'm going to ask you the same question all of our MC's have asked me in private sessions....and I want you to think about it honestly.
"What if what you are wanting is simply not something your spouse can give you? What if she simply does not have that in her?" Now saying those things does not mean she doesn't love you with everything she has...but she loves differently than you do. This is not uncommon. It also can mean that she simply cannot provide you with this....now.
You are in a place right now many of us have been...mired down in resentment. You simply don't accept your W as she is, right now. As your situation is at the moment...she's not going to feel safe enough with you to make the changes you are wanting...why? Because she feels judged by you, she already feels not good enough....your resentment will just add fuel to that fire (as understandable as it is). She's icked out by sexual things that turn you on...and well probably feels like you are thinking she's not normal.
Something many of us have had some level of success with...but also battled with is finally accepting our partners for who they are, as they are, right now. I know how impossible this sounds to you...but it relieves the tension between the two of you and allows both of you to be who you truly are. Once your W feels safer with you to be vulnerable and not be judged "not good enough" by you...you might find she starts making changes as a result. Couple that with the behavior modifications within yourself that others such as Blackfoot and Corrie are suggesting and you might be suprised at the results over time.
Take your focus off of her, focus on YOUR behavior...focus on the things your W does that you love about her, focus on the ways she does show you she loves you....and try to accept her for the woman she is right now.
i have thought about that question alot and quite frankly, i dont know. i mean, how can i act? can i accept it? if i have to accept it with the way things are right now -- sure i can; will i be happy during the entire time i know i cant have what i want? you can bet i wont be - not in the least because apart of me will me MIA (missing in action) - dead.
i will begin working on some changes, but i refuse to change to the point where i lose touch and sense of me and my wants (which is what i feel like will happen). and if i dont chnge all that much, i just see it being this viscious cycle
).