Neanderthal

[Corri]

N:

Well, now I would see this as instance where BF might tell you to 'lead.'

Your wife, like many women... has a sensitivity to what I'd call... uhm... naturual body fluids, natural body odor... GBI... or 'genital/body ick."

You keep shooting yourself in the foot because you keep asking... 'but, why, WHY are you LIKE this? This is NATURAL, you even begin to respond, I am your husband, you should WANT to do this with me...'

Okay, ya gotta stop this right now, just right now, because it isn't getting you anywhere. As a matter of fact, all it is doing is sinking you further and further into a hole.

Number one, your wife is still stuck in Romance Novel mode. In the romance novels, they only talk about being swept away, they don't talk about sexual exploration and a girl learning how to accept her body and womaness so she can become a PARTNER in the R, not a princess.

In other words, your wife does not yet realize that she still needs to sexually grow up. You can help her do that by giving her a feeling of safety and SLOWING WAY THE HE!! down. Your wife is not physically/mentally aroused enough to get over her fear of GBI, and you are not helping.

Meaning... you are diving way too soon. I don't know why men do this... I guess because they think the clitoris and vaginia are the woman's pleasure center, and that is where it must all start... after all, that is how is works with a man and his penis. A woman is not built like a man. Though the female genitalia does contain our pleasure center... this is NOT where the beacon is turned on... so to speak. (Unless we are really horny and just want to rip your clothes off, but I digress).

A woman's pleasure (at least with us LD types) begins outside the bedroom. And BF can tell you all about this. The whole process of attraction. It's a vital first step.

Once that has been accomplished, a woman like your W I think would benefit from extended foreplay, especially with her breasts and non-erotic zone touching. No pressure. In a word... teasing the he!! out of her. I would recommend you get the book Peace Between the Sheets (i know, group <eye roll>) and READ it. I am not advocating non-orgasm sex to you... but what is in that book, and some of the processes it describes is absolute phenomenal for women like me and your W who have vulnerability issues. I don't have GBI, but I used to. I got over it. I still have vulnerability issues, and my fear will kill my sex drive faster than anything.

So remember, where fear is presnet, your hands and mouth will NOT be.

You have to get your W turned on enough and revved up enough that she is willing to step past her fears... and she won't do it all at once either, so keep THAT in mind.

I don't know why your W fears, I don't know why vulnerability becomes an issue... but it is... and you asking her WHY, or getting mad at her about it is not going to help your cause, believe me. It will kill whatever trust and faith she has in you, and then the two of you are REALLY going to have a problem.

No, none of this is fair to YOU. Yes, it sucks that YOU have to be the one who experiences frustration while your W decides if she has it in her to grow up. She will gradually move beyond her GBI if you consistently arouse her, let her experience success with her arousal, and becomes comfortable with it. Then you take another baby step. During this time, you have to mix in Blackfoot's understanding of m/f attraction dynamics.

Perhpas GGB can tell you what he's done with his wife with EC encounters, cuz for awhile he was getting it twice a day with his wife (and they've been sidetracked by other things recently...)

They key, in my mind, is your W has to feel there is no pressure to perform, or she is going to derail both of you.

Well... okay.... is all that clear as mud? Peace Between the Sheets friend. Read cover to cover, and even if you disagree with 98% of what is in the book, we have common ground to apply some of its principles in ways that YOU will enjoy.

Corri

[Neanderthal]

well, now, this is the first time i can sit here and say, i think i get it. i dont like it, i dont like the idea of any of what i am going to have to do, but i am willing to do it.

I guess my fear in all of this is: Not only am I changing who I am, but also how I am acting.. maybe not permanently, but at least temporarily as I help my W through a difficult time (in a sense). Changing is not the fear, its the fear in me changing in HOPES that my W turns around into the partner that wants to share the same experiences as me -- its the I am walking by a huge cliff without knowing where it ends. if she doesn't eventually change, then I am going to fall hard and fast.

Now I know there is no time table to this and it will be a trial... but i have a feeling i will know the right time to determine if there is any hopes whatsoever...

i am looking up the book now. I guess my next question is: do i dare try and read this thing in front of her? I ask because night would be best time and we do spend some time with one another. i know if i do, the questions will fly and well - i know how i am going to respond to just about any question she could possibly throw at me.... as i stated earlier, in her mind - as far as i know (she told me) - things are perfect between us

I have to believe her.... i mean, when she asks me what i think, i express where my concerns are (still gets me nowhere), so why wouldnt i get the same courtesy?

[Corri]

N:

I think many people here have told you that the definition of insanity is doing the same thing, but expecting different results.

I guess my fear in all of this is: Not only am I changing who I am, but also how I am acting.. maybe not permanently, but at least temporarily as I help my W through a difficult time (in a sense). Changing is not the fear, its the fear in me changing in HOPES that my W turns around into the partner that wants to share the same experiences as me -- its the I am walking by a huge cliff without knowing where it ends. if she doesn't eventually change, then I am going to fall hard and fast.

Yes, you would be changing who you are and how you act... whether that is viewed as a positive or a negative is strictly up to you. What you are dealing with is a simple law of physic: cause and effect. If you don't like the effect you are getting, ya gotta change the cause.

I wouldn't hide the book from her, either. It's a free country, last time I checked. Doesn't mean you have to shove it down her throat, doesn't mean she has to read it, doesn't mean she has to LIKE it. I wouldn't hide your concerns about your SL, for then you are not being honest... but you CAN rethink how you choose to discuss it... and discuss it in "I" terms, rather than "you" terms. Not... "I'm looking for different ways to turn you on so I can get you over your problem..." Uhm. No. More along the lines of... "I'm dissatisfied with our sex life and I want to see if there is something I can change about me that might help." Or something like that. You leave HER out of it.

If she goes ballistic on you... that's her problem. If she goes ballistic on you, I'd say it's because she knows there is a problem and she just doesn't want to deal with it. Problems don't go away by avoiding them. It's great that she thinks everything is perfect. You don't. That means that everything ISN'T perfect.

So while I do not think you need to talk it to death and always have it in her face... I don't think you should avoid it either. You need to make it clear to her that it is an issue that won't go away...

And like I said... the whole process of male/female attraction I think is very important for you to understand. Maybe Blackfoot can give you reading references or tips or something... dunno. You'll have to ask him.

Keep the faith, and don't have kids until you feel the issue has been resolved.

Corri

[Neanderthal]

oh and now that i am miserable ... how do i tell her what is on my mind? god, i feel like an idiot and a fool. i mean, i am tired of talking, i am numb to the whole idea of facing her anymore - in any way because it is obvious how different we are in this area (and yes, it is important to me -- i dont think it is to her)

talking does nothing, my actions do nothing - at least that is how i feel.

UGH - UGH -- UGH -- QUADRUPLE UGH! sorry - had to vent... ok - i feel a little better, but not much. time to play a video game and relieve some of this stress

[blackfoot]

ok Andy.

I dont know how long you have been lurking but there are behaviors that turn women off. <click> turning them back on again...well Im sure you have seen the photo that floats around the internet from time to time. So many buttons where to start. j/k

How old are you and your W, how long have you been married.
Ive read thru the limited commnents you have posted so far and I am going to pull out various sentences, as examples, that hint to me that the problems are outside the bedroom.
Your W is having sex with you but she is resentful about something. A generic guess is lack of EC, and you 'understanding' her.

Things that are not working for you need to be stopped.
What things are not working for you?
Make a list. Then stop doing them. It doesnt have to make sense to you. Monitor the results.

Ive said this over and over, but just in case, (I should just put it in my sig)
Supplicating, placating and self denigrating are repulsive to women. Identify what this behavior looks like and sounds like. If you are afraid of her reactions, and you dont want to upset her, if you are stuffing your emotions and 'trying to be nice' to her, then you are engaging in all of them

here is an example
Sweety, i want to let you know that i havent been that happy lately because i have been feelin neglected physically This is placating. Your trying to spare her from your feelings. I can imagine the bodylanguage that goes along with such a sentence. seeking, needy, almost desperate for her to 'understand'.
It would be far better to tell her flat out, 'Im not happy with our sex life.' There are other ways to do it, but you need to feel them.

Because I have gotten tired of tryin to make moves and constantly being told no. It is rejection to me, makes me feel like i am not wanted
So stop.

but i cant have you around here if you are goin to continue to act this way and get upset everytime you get turned away
This is a time for you to listen. repeat it back to her in a question. Act what way? do not flinch when she tells you. just listen. Ask her how she would respond if you were to reject her. be prepared to listen somemore.

There is a power imbalance in your R. she threatens you with leaving, crys and yells, and you begin to 'toe the line' again. and or leave her alone. she gets what she wants by crying and yellings and your reinforce this behavior.
Control your reactivity to her hurtful comments. Be prepared to let her cry and tantrum. Its not your job to fix or to eliminate her discomfort. If she needs space at some point..let her have it. Dont chase after her. Say ok we will talk about this when you have calmed down again.
This will make her mad.
Oh well. she is not being honest with you, and or you didnt hear her woman code in the past.

i made one wrong comment and i got the what are you trying to do? I explained to her that I was just going along with the conversation. we were laughing, she had described some things that happened, we both made a couple of comments, so i continued to go along -- until i heard, essentially, NO!

I see this recurring element happening when you cross one of her lines, she ways What are you doing, sort of seizing the power, taking a bad boy dont make mommy unhappy type of dynamic. Then you try to explain to mommy why you were doing it. You have to stop that. I call it logicalling. It only results in placating or supplicating.
Has it ever worked for you? Or does it just leave you frustrated? What would a different response be?

i romanced her with dates, flowers, cards, letters (actual mailed), nights out and i still cant seem to get beyond
IF this was done to try to get something from her, if the thought occured to you maybe she will like me more for this, it was supplicating. Your trying to buy favor...

ok as far as in the bedroom, Mrs Nop .. I think... made a post about HD being willing to settle for low quality sex... cant find it right now. HP mentioned this to you allready too.
In general though, Do not take NO personally. Do not let it have any effect on you. What is the worst thing that can happen when she says no?
She cant trust you, cant feel safe, when you take it personally. These barriers are internal and how many exist are directly proportional to the respect and power you have in the rest of the relationship. When she says no Immediatly stop and go back to what you were doing. She is not telling you no --so much as telling herself no --to protect herself emotionally. Give her the time it takes to move on to the next step. IF you cant get to the next step if she keeps up the no. stop.
Unreactively say ok, and quit. Its her hangup its not your problem. Some behaviors that work. Savoring the moment, anticipation, and teasing.

keep going cause its obvious from sound she is enjoying and then BAM! and brain goes.... WTF? keep going isnt working. so what would a 180 be? do something different. She is not a man, dont give her what you want. But do by all means Tell her and Teach her exactly what you want. not just in the bedroom. Dont try to show her by doing it for her.

Why would you care what her reaction to you reading PBTS is? If she asks-- ask her back...why do you think I am?

What is a list of things that she would like and needs from you? are you doing it?

[MJontheMend]

I'm going to mostly agree with Corri here. For some reason I am the kind of woman with whom many other women feel comfortable talking about sexual issues so I am basing my advice on over 25 years of anecdote and gossip-LOL. Many, many, many women are uncomfortable with the thought of what it would be like for their partner to interact directly with their genitals. It makes them intensely self-conscious to think about the smell, taste, general "ickiness". This self-consciousness takes them out of the moment and turns them off. It has nothing to do with whether the process actually feels good or arousing.

IMO, it is a sign of sexual immaturity. When I was 16, I would estimate that more than 50% of my peers has issues along these lines. Now that I'm 41, I would say that it's down to less than 20% of my peers who are at all concerned. IMO, the best way to deal with this issue is to make it VERY clear how much YOU like to do it. This might not be clear to your wife at all. She might think that this is just what you are doing to pleasure her. So (Regretably, I find myself having to use the vernacular of the junior high male here) you need to let her know you're thinking "apple pie" not "tuna".

[blackfoot]

mojo

I agree completely with your post. The vast majority of women throw up the no no no's that mean 'Ew. Do YOU REALLLY want to do that?'

however while I would love to suggest that he engage a ignore and plow type technique, done with extreme confidance and humor, the way he currently responds to her barriers with personalizing and logicalling I think its just going to escalate to serious breach of trust.
IMO.
He needs to learn how to not personalize and how to not get stuck in her ...'what are you doing'-- tarbabies first.

[MJontheMend]

however while I would love to suggest that he engage a ignore and plow type technique, done with extreme confidance and humor, the way he currently responds to her barriers with personalizing and logicalling I think its just going to escalate to serious breach of trust.

I don't think he should "ignore and plow" either. It really is a kind of tricky problem. I can't even come up with a "line" he could use that would be useful. However, the other thought I had was that if he could think about how he might react if he had a HD female partner who was trying to "toss his salad" (if that was something with which he might be somewhat uncomfortable), he might be able to come up with an empathetic response/solution. EVERYBODY has things that cross the line in terms of sexual ickiness for them and this varies a lot from person to person.

[blackfoot]

I can't even come up with a "line" he could use that would be useful.

Wow. Your that easy? your H doesnt have to use any lines?


Relax. Im just messing with you. <cough mojoseasy cough>




Ok. seriously. There are no 'magic words'. There are no 'lines' that will overcome unattractive behaviors and subcommunication. once he gets some practice and confidance with being radically honest, assertive, not afraid of her reactions, then he can worry about the other stuff.

[MJontheMend]

Wow. Your that easy? your H doesnt have to use any lines?


Relax. Im just messing with you. <cough mojoseasy cough>

LOL- I can't imagine why you would think I would take offense at that comment. I am well aware of the fact that I am as round-heeled as a Weeble. Though I would say that this is only partially attributable to my HD. Mostly it's due to the fact that I am the sort of person who usually says "Yes" or at least "Why not?" in response to most sentences that start "Would you like to...". That is why I am severely mentally challenged when it comes to understanding the whole concept of LD.