If the 3-4 times per week is lackluster and her just laying there, why do you proceed with it?
I think you would feel a lot better--and get your message across in a better way--if you'd call a stop to it as she's laying there, thinking of England.
Because on one hand, you're telling her that you love HER not the sex. But on the other hand, you proceed with the sex even if she's being passive aggressive. So that sends the message that you'd rather get off than anything else. See what I mean?
Stop having sex with her when she's laying there being passive aggressive. Say to her "I have no desire to ML to a person who is only offering their body to me." and get up and leave the room.
Expect more of her. Do it with your actions, not your words. At this point, your words are not congruent with your actions. You SAY you want more from her, but you accept much, much less, all in the name of obtaining an orgasm. Therefore, she has no reason to believe you when you say that ML, for you, is more than getting your rocks off.
Quote: Because on one hand, you're telling her that you love HER not the sex. But on the other hand, you proceed with the sex even if she's being passive aggressive. So that sends the message that you'd rather get off than anything else.
This is so true.
I think the Peace Between the Sheets stuff would be good for you. Now what was the name of Corri's thread about that... Here it is Manipulation Through Genes and Biology. Suggest you read through this, andy.
What a day this turned out to be - work was just drowning me! Anyways, to respond to every one...
Cobra: Yes, I think self esteem for the W is an issue, or it can be from time to time (she does make that known). Throughout the process of me reshaping myself, there were always offering to join and help out in other ways yet she only got involved with what she wanted. If she decided not to assist i wouldnt have been bothered too much because i did it on my own time when it would not affect our lives or our routine. If things were different, I might have a different viewpoint... but all my past experiences have shaped me who i am today. To take a bit further on your comments: if she was attracting other guys, or got some other things done - right now, it sounds intriguing. the trust is there, so I feel that would add some spice and i would not be bothered by it. if anything, it would help me maintain a certain level working out - i would be open to it right now.
Honeypot: you made some good points and that made sense. After reading that I can say, yes, i am giving off the vibe that i love the sex more then her.... eventhough that is not the case.
like i said, i have some reading to do
I do appreciate all the feedback. I know this will not be easy - matter of fact will probably be one of the hardest things I will have to go thru.... but I feel that I am traveling the smart road and not quitting
Ok.... So I have continued to think, probably my worst enemy in this entire mess I find myself in. One or two questions I continually ask throughout is: 1. Is it wrong for me to want to experience things w/ the woman I love and want to feel the same desire/need in return? 2. If I do not get a sense of the same committment, which is where I am at, do I throw in the towel and look elsewhere? (Not my style, which is why i am here) 3. What would it take to feel that sense of committment? I am not 100% sure, but I can say that it would be nice from time to time to hear sweet nothings for no reason (I am the one doing this), it would be nice for the W to come up w/ something different, it would be nice to hear some deep-dark desire and fantasy of hers.... after all, i like to talk about them and share w/ her
Right now, I feel like if I want this to work I am going to have to sacrifice what I want. Yes I know that is selfish, and please don't take this out of context. I say it this way because I sit there saying that knowing that there is a level of fulfillment that will never be obtained with things in its current state; that is where the unhappiness comes from. I am not saying I can not be happy w/ what I have, I am just saying that I am unhappy because I am still learning how to accept that there are things in life you just can't get, no matter how bad you want them. I have always been told, if you work hard enough, there is no reason why you cant have what you want. I apply that to every aspect of my life, its my personality.
Yes, part of that is my problem because I am choosing to react this way... I am choosing to not accept this is how it is going to be. I am just having a very difficult time getting past this. Why? Because this is something that is important to me, so i apply what i know to try and make it happen and it is not - so there in lies the frustration
Ok... one last rant -- i am jumping all over! anotehr thought i had was this. even if there was resentment everywhere and all this is happening because of the resentments... how do you get past it? Obviously, this situation goes like this (i heard and read about some of this scenario play out): W: I am not doing that til you do x,y,z H: I can't do that til you do x,y,z So its like a stalemate. W wont give in until H changes. H won't change for fear the W won't follow thru or do.... or vise-versa. either way, i look at it as a stalemate w/ no where to go....
ok - i am confusing myself since i am all over the place. i forewarned ya that it was a rant
So today was a drastic change from the last few months... the W woke me up w/ interesting words - nice kisses, and that peaked my interest. (This could be because i completely shut it down for the last couple of days. A talk ensued about that and I just explained how I was just taking a step back and acting towards you, the way I feel you act towards me. I am learning to accept what I have, what I know i cant have, etc. That was really the length of the conversation, at which point the W decided it was time to call it a night.) Anyways, the way she woke me up you would think is a good thing, yet somehow I am not getting my hopes up. Why? because i have seen this play out too many times before where there is good/great dialogue throughout the morning/day, but no follow-thru when it counts.
So what does one do to continue and nurture the dialogue? to make it continue on throughout? to make the follow-thru happen? I have tried on numerous occassions to explain that this is the best feeling, that this was all I was looking for, etc, yet it doesnt seem to sink in.....
This is where ranting starts, so I am stopping... just thought I would share this frustration. It is a way to help me sort all of this out....
One of the things you don't want to do is talk this thing to death. All that does is increase pressure on your wife. Reward behavior you like, completely IGNOR behavior you do not like. Like many people on here have said, actions speak louder than words, and were I you... I'd spend a great deal of time focusing on your actions and your reactions. These are things YOU can control.
For example, when your wife wakes you up in a nice way... you can smile at her, you can cuddle with her, and still not get your hopes up. You have to understand that this isn't just HER problem... but how the two of you interact with one another. So your patience and OPTIMISM are paramount. If you have faith that she will succeed, that carries a whole different vibe than if you expect her to always fail and dissapoint you.
One of the things I think is important, too, is your whole 'approach.' What you are currently doing isn't working. So instead of drilling her on 'why don't you like that...' begin to experiment on different approaches. If your goal is to get into her pants... no matter what you do, that is what it is going to feel like to her.
If your goal is to increase physcial intimacy, with or without IC or Os, THAT is going to feel different.
Obsviously there is far more to sex than IC and O, but many HD/LDs turn it into goal oriented sex because it is EASY and doesn't require much effort beyond appropriate physcial stimulation. So if you don't want that kind of sex... stop having that kind of sex.
Your wife, it sounds to me, seems pretty certain, in her mind, that all you want to do is use her to get off. What's more... you want to come up with kinky, funky ways to get off in different ways... which feels demeaning and gross to her. I'm not saying that is correct... but that is what is probably going on in her head. Your actions have not helped to change this perception.
Please do read Peace Between the Sheets... great suggestions. You may also want to consider going to a Marriage Encounter Weekend... GGB has written all about it... you and your wife have to learn how to open up to one another again... to trust one another again... if you are lacking meaningful sex in your life, I'm willing to bet you are lacking meaningful verbal communication as well.
Stop focusing on what you DON'T have and aren't likely to get. See yourself as succeeding. Visualize it every day.
See the situation as an opportunity to change the way you do your marital/sexual business... rather than what it is you have to 'sacrifice' in order to succeed. What you have to sacrifice is some 'stinkin' thinkin' and some old behavior patterns that just aren't working. Were you a business owner... would you get mad that your old business methods weren't working anymore as you watch your profit margins shrink... or would you accept that the market has changed, and you need to 'get with the times,' and try something different?
Why is it that you are the one who has to change? Well, you don't. But you want something more... and your pouting here says you want different 'returns on investment' without altering what and how much you invest. Do you see?
If you really want what you say you want... then you will do whatever is necessary to change yourself in order to reach your goal. The reward of long-term success gets you through the agony of short-term change and effort. But you know this already... you changed your entire physique and did whatever you had to do to reach your goal. You may not have relished it... but you did it to reach your goal.
But you know all this already, right? So. Stop grumbling and get busy.
Yes it has been over a week (i think) since I responded or kept anyone up to date.... mainly because I wanted to really focus on what I had, not what i didnt have. I can get caught in a vacuum from time to time when i focus.
First let me say that, i know a week will not be enough time to change a thing; however, a week is enough time to find out if the situation is ever going to right itself and after last night, my frustration has hit a new level.
The first half of the week was really good. I mean there was a difference in approaches for both of us and i thought you know.... we are making progress. it really did look promising - i felt better, acted better and i just thought our R as a whole was moving forward. Also keep in mind that we only ML 1 in the first few days, and again, i still felt very positive. I was excited again about our entire R.
Then the middle of the week came, intimacy occurred, and BAM! it was just down hill from there. why? because as we were fooling around (she initiated and expressed what she wanted) and as we progressed i wanted to explore a bit more (i was going w/ the flow), obviously crossed some line as W said -- no, stop. I did stop but at the same time was crushed - i couldnt figure it out why. I mean, afterall, i was following her queues....so, to make a long story short - the night ended abruptly. i stood my ground and just told her i couldnt continue. when asked why, i told her that hearing no - especially when following her queue was just heart wrenching - i cant figure it out. I told her everything leading up to that one moment was perfect (the last few days) but that one moment absolutely sent me in a tailspin.
needless to say, we recovered the following morning (again, me trying to put a spin on all this) and the next day was decent. things were good, spirits were up, etc. then W had to go away on a trip and i thought, ruh-roh, this will be interesting.
We talked, communicated the entire time W was gone - this was good, we had good conversation. Then last night happened. W still gone, so this was on the phone -- Again, i kinda went along w/ the conversation, i made one wrong comment and i got the what are you trying to do? I explained to her that I was just going along with the conversation. we were laughing, she had described some things that happened, we both made a couple of comments, so i continued to go along -- until i heard, essentially, NO!
I understand there is probably a more deep-rooted reasoning for all of this and i have yet to understand it (hence, NEANDERTHAL is my name), but can someone tell me what the h-e-double hockey sticks is going on?
I have tried everything, literally. i romanced her with dates, flowers, cards, letters (actual mailed), nights out and i still cant seem to get beyond the miss-priss approach she has.... i just think we are on different levels, different playing fields.
Your post made me wonder if you are experiencing something with your W that I did with my H....assumption of what you were going to say or do.
My H has a HORRIBLE habit (although he's working on this) of assuming what I will say, assuming what my reactions will be...and assuming what I may do. Often, very often...he's wrong in his assumptions.
I wonder...if your W is assuming that if you do/say x....then eventually you will do y....which has to lead to z...and she doesn't want z.
This is one reason the communication between my H and I was so bad for so long...he would assume things without ever giving me the opportunity to react in my own manner. Basically...he was projecting his experiences with others onto me (which was entirely unfair).
We are both now learning to clarify things. I know your feelings were hurt when your W said "no"...but did you ask her why she said no? Did you clarify with her what line you had crossed...or that she thought you might cross? If you didn't you might try that. I find clarifying things really helps.
yes, i do have a habit of assuming - probably way more then the average person because i have always felt that when i am really "involved" w/ a person, i have an uncanny ability to predetermine things they may do or say. I know i am not going to be right all the time - that comes w/ the territory. Yes, i know i just opened myself for hurt - haha - have fun w/ it gang
onto the actual events.... of course if she wants me to do x, you know it will lead to y -- then for me z - whether z is a part of the equation or not. have we talked about this in the past? yes.... and i have an understanding of why she does not want z to happen. (keep in mind that z can change quite often as does the reasons). in the end though and for argument sake, z is a no-no -- no matter how much i want z...
what i am having trouble grasping is... if i want to experience z (not because i have in the past w/ others, but because to me, i want to share that experience w/ my lover since i feel it is just yet another form of expression and another way to spice things up), why should i continually have to hear no, regardless of the reasoning?
Also keep in mind that z was in the equation in the earlier stages of our R. Problem w/ the early years was the frequency was horrible 2-3x month.... so it has been a complete reversal.
i am just flustered, confused, frustrated, etc. i realize what my options are w/ respect to the R (only 2) - none of them i see being viable because of all the factors involved.
I understand why you would think that if you are involved with someone..well basically you should be able to read them well. The fact is though she's a different type of person than you are...and she's making the mistake of making assumptions about you too...based on her past experiences.
My H used to assume I would react the same way to different things...as women from his past would. So, he'd make that assumption then immediately jump to the defensive and make things worse. I'd be sitting there thinking WTF! Knowing...if he'd given me the opportunity he'd have seen I wasn't going to react in at all the same fashion as he expected.
I suspect...you are both doing this. When this happens you set each other up to where well...you do begin to behave as the other expects you will.
That's why I say clarify. If she says no...then ask her, "exactly what are you saying no to? You were enjoying what I was doing." I'm still the one who clarifies things in my M, my H still hasn't learned to do that, but we both benefit from it.
