Today I was with our children until 4:20. I dropped them off and went shopping. I called my D5 around 8:00 as I always do to say goodnight. My W informs me that she has our couple friends over w/ their children and her GF from down the street. I tell her, NP, just have D call me when she is going down for bed. She agrees. I get a call back immediately telling me that I am invited over to the BBQ and am welcome to hang out also. I didn't really contemplate not accepting. I agreed. I am thinking that the correct DB strategy would have been to thank her for the invite and decline by telling her I already had plans. But, that hindsight.... Grrrrr!
Anyway, I went over and had a nice time with everyone talking and swimming. I love being with our children every chance I get. When the evening was winding down, my W was making snide comments about the fact that I took too many of our DVDs to my place. I told her, if I'm not mistaken, you fall asleep to LOTR or Gladiator, that's it. She then tells me that she uses more of them. I didn't want to call her a liar, but I slept in the damn room with her and know which DVDs were in the player. I chose to be happier rather than prove a point that I was right.
We then begin talking about what I took from the house and how fair she believes she has been throughout our sitch. I wanted to discuss this further. She then begins trying to boss me around and I tell her that I will not be bossed around by her. She then retorts, "I won't be controlled by you." My ears perked up. She continued, "You always trap me when I don't want to talk anymore. I made it clear that I was done with this conversation." She said this a few days ago that I ALWAYS controlled her during our marriage. I was at a complete loss and asked her for ONE example since she chose to use the blanket statement (i.e. always). She would not give me even one. But tonight, she finally fessed up to WTH she meant.
I told her tonight, "No, you didn't make it clear that you were done with our conversation." I then went and read to our D and put her to bed. On the way out I asked my W for one minute of her time and she gave it to me. I asked her if THAT is what she meant by my always controlling her while we were married, by insisting on continuing a conversation that she did not want to be in anymore? She said yes. I asked her, is that ALL of the ways that I controlled you. Again she answered yes. Eureka! I breakthrough. I simply apologized and told her that I never viewed wanting to finish a conversation as controlling her. I told her I do understand how YOU would feel that way being on YOUR end. I am sorry. I said goodnight.
With the ending portion of our conversation about my controlling her, I had an epiphany. In my defense, I recall my W regularly making accusations about me that were contentless. When I questioned her view/accusation, she usually shut down immediately and said she wanted to forget it. I would geherally try to continue the conversation since the subject of the conversation was genterally her sh*tty view of what I said or did, punctuated with the proverbial blanket adverbs- always, never, etc. The blanket statements she was so fond of using about me really set me off. One really stands out in particular: we were in a session with our MC and she said H always acts this negative way (can't even remember now what W was referring to) with our D5. Immediately, our MC said, "Really? H NEVER has any positive, loving interactions with D5? My W, after having painted herself into a corner and being called on it by a neutral 3rd party couldn't recant fast enough. Our MC then explained how hurtful and damaging blanket statemes are to a S and to a M. This was also about the same timeframe that our MC told my W that she had as "Madonna Complex." meaning that she was interested in intimacy and sex in a R as long as it was new, exciting, immature, and there were NO expectations placed on HER.
At this point, I am at a crossroad in what to do next about her revelation to me that I ALWAYS trapped her in a conversation when she no longer wanted to be in a conversation. I can certainly see her point of view. I also see that from my vantage point she would open up a can of worms with contentless BS and then choose to unilaterally shut down when it was pointed out that her view was full of hot air. This definitely goes back to me always feeling I needed to defend myself and to prove her wrong and thus me right. As I saidd, in my M, I never felt I was worthy, good enough, and/or an alpha male as I do in every other aspect of my life and I didn't feel comofortable in my own skin, as I was constantly being criticized, measured, sized up, downgraded, shown disapproval, etc.
A sizable portion of me wants to send my W an e-mail again apologizing for ever making her feel controlled by pursuing conversations that she wanted to end. But my authentic self wants to do nothing more. I already apologized and she is an intelligent woman and will remember that I apologized. In MY rational thinking, those situations in which she says I controlled her were actually situations in which I was trying to wrest control FROM her wanting to shut down a conversation SHE started with her penchant for negative blanket statements and then wanting to shut it all down unilaterally when she could not back up her "stuff."
I don't know. I'd like to think that my view of this aspect of our R is correct, but my life philosophy has alwasy been, there's my version, your version, and the actual truth lies somewhere in between. Plus, I'd rather be happy than right any day. I've spent my whole life trying to prove that I'm right to the devastation of my happinerss.
One more note about W. She actually IS stuck somewhere around age 13 emotionally. She is on MySpace.com and also text msgs OM and her friends whenever I am around. It's all so childish. I try to ignore it. I'm getting better at it. The ball is in both of our courts. I just hope she will stop being so selfish, self-centered and self-absorbed. Who knows if she will. And so I pray. For me, for our children, and for her.
I was interested in your discussion on control when my H and I went to counselling the counsellor asked who has the power in your relationship and with both pointed to the other person - and she said that was often the case with seperating couples. My H believed I had the control because in the beginning I probably did - I Loved him but I was a much stronger person and would have walked away if I felt I was not going to live the life I wanted. He adored me and felt if he was going to keep me in his life he needed to make me happy - bizarrely we both thought this was a reasonable concept WTF! Any way I pushed my "power" too far (albeit he didn't tell me things had changed from his perspective ie how much hurt/insecurity he was feeling - he just shut down to me) When I realised what had happened I knew how much I wanted him in my life and he now effectively had the power but he never realised this changed dynamic so consequently we spent the next three years both feeling powerless, believing the other one held all the power.
So now I am reading a lot about distancing and pursuing to understand this particular dynamic.
Do you think Control and power are interchangeable terms or do you think they are different?
God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change; (Life, the Universe, other people)
courage to change the things I can;(me, my attitudes, my behaviour, my reactions)
and wisdom to know the difference
I am sorry to meet you in this forum but happy that you have come here for (hopefully) understanding, guidance, personal growth, patience, perspective....
Quote: I was interested in your discussion on control when my H and I went to counselling the counsellor asked who has the power in your relationship and with both pointed to the other person - and she said that was often the case with seperating couples. My H believed I had the control because in the beginning I probably did - I Loved him but I was a much stronger person and would have walked away if I felt I was not going to live the life I wanted. He adored me and felt if he was going to keep me in his life he needed to make me happy - bizarrely we both thought this was a reasonable concept WTF!
Bizarrely, your R sounds much like mine. My W was stronger in the beginning and surrounded herself with friends and being out doing things with them more than nurturing her M. I always felt I was 4th fiddle in her life (no, not 2nd, not 3rd, 4th). My wife told me at least a dozen times during our M that she wanted a D and asked me to move out at least 1/2 a dozen times. So, my W was also one who made it clear that she would walk if she didn't get her way Dummy me, I didn't call her on that or walk myself.
Quote: Any way I pushed my "power" too far (albeit he didn't tell me things had changed from his perspective ie how much hurt/insecurity he was feeling - he just shut down to me)
I won't discuss the he did/she did stuff between us too much right now. I will say that my W maintains that she always gave 110% to our M from day one and that I am 99% of the problem in our M. See a slight problem there? I did and do. Everyone who knows us both would say that those percentages should have been attributed to the other S.
I tried to discuss my wants/needs with her and the response was, "That's YOUR sh*t! I can't do anything about that." Needless to say, I stopped trying to reach out and instead of being more persistent or leaving the R, I chose the cowardly way of cheating on her to attain what I craved: adoration, appreciation, affirmation, and affection, ALL of which were severely lacking in our M. To further deteriorate our M, I was convinced that my W just didn't give a sh*t about being M to me and wanted out. I am not so sure that that wasn't an accurate take on her state of mind.
Yes, I know that looking outside of my M for those A's was like mining for fools gold trying to get rich. Yes, I know I was wrong. Yes, I feel terrible, but I can't take it back. Unfortunately, I have atoned as much as I possibly am able and have tried to make amends, but she is unwilling to forgive me for my betrayal. To make matters worse, we have two children and our D5 is terribly torn up about all of this and my W is off in lala land not paying any attention b/c she has surrounded herself with "man hater" girlfriends who love the new "teenager" wife and all of her irresponsibility b/c she is more available to them to be the "fun girl" instead of the responsible mother of two. on top of all of that, those manhaters fill my W's head with all kinds of BS about children and the effects of D on them, or according to them, the lack of effect on children. Sad to say, but EVERYTHING I have read about children and divorce is that D is a life defining time; VERY traumatic with LONG lasting negative effects. THAT is why I focus on doting on my children as much as I do and I am often told I am too accomodating to my W with regard to taking our children when W needs me to have them on my "off" days/time. But I digress....
Quote: When I realised what had happened I knew how much I wanted him in my life and he now effectively had the power but he never realised this changed dynamic so consequently we spent the next three years both feeling powerless, believing the other one held all the power.
At this point, I am working on GAL and distancing myself from her emotionally, but am having real difficulty b/c I see her 4-6 times per week to exchange our children and I also see her at the office. I am working on me now b/c I have 100% control over me even though I often don't feel like I do. But I force myself to get off the pity pot and put one foot in front of the other. Right now, I feel like she has the power b/c I am just now getting my feet on firm footing to be, again, the man I once was when we met. I lost myself in our M trying to make her happy. If she was happy, I was happy. If she was unhappy, I thought I did something wrong. WTF?!?!? Not healthy. We morphed our love into a co-dependent relationship and I am only now seeing that and working my way out of and back into being the strong, independent man I am in every other aspect of my life.
Quote: Do you think Control and power are interchangeable terms or do you think they are different?
Yes, I believe they are the same. From Merriam-Webster:
Control= 2: to exercise restraining or directing influence over: to have POWER over...
Sorry for being so darn long-winded in answering your question. I tend to do that.
Quote: Very often the lesson is just learning how to feel ok in our own skins without needing the apporval of someone else.
Strange thing in reading your last post, Frank, is that I was having trouble figuring out what you were telling ME. Then I read the previous response post from Flip and said, "Ahhhh...."
I feel OK in my own skin as long as I am not in the presence of my W. Even that is getting better each day. Each day I recapture more of me whom I lost in my M and I embrace that person so that he will be the one who interacts with my W and children going forward. I do have value as a person. THAT is huge for me to be able to say abaout myself. The real challenge is keeping those feelings about me in the forefront of my mind so that they are the NORM for me and the feelings I fall back on in my crisis of a sitch.
Sorry - to go back and rehash this - I missed it earlier.
What I have learnt, I think, is about control and unconditional love. I can't make my H love me. All can do is exercise unconditional love for him and hope he comes back.
Even if it doesn't work out the way I want, at least I will feel proud of my own actions.
You cannot teach a man anything; you can only help him discover it in himself. Galileo Galilei
One more note about W. She actually IS stuck somewhere around age 13 emotionally. She is on MySpace.com and also text msgs OM and her friends whenever I am around. It's all so childish. I try to ignore it. I'm getting better at it. The ball is in both of our courts. I just hope she will stop being so selfish, self-centered and self-absorbed. Who knows if she will. And so I pray. For me, for our children, and for her.
Wow, you just tell in your thread about how you are always trying to prove your right and at the end your post you give a good example of why you think you are so right. Guess being happy for you isn't enough. Still need to be right more than happy it appears. Not doing this to be mean, just giving you something to think about.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it."
Marcus Aurelius
Quote: Wow, you just tell in your thread about how you are always trying to prove your right and at the end your post you give a good example of why you think you are so right. Guess being happy for you isn't enough. Still need to be right more than happy it appears. Not doing this to be mean, just giving you something to think about.
I didn't take your post as you being mean. A different perspective of my point of view, especially when it turns into a rant, is always welcome. Helps me to take a clear, hard look at myself and my behavior because, if I come across in the wrong way here, I am certain I am coming across judgmental and wrong to her. Not good. Not what I want to convey. Being happy IS enough for me! I still need a LOT of work changing my deeply ingrained behavior of being judgmental and trying to prove I am right (even when it all ONLY loops in my head) over being accepting and happy. Thank you for chiming in. I need everyone's perspective all too often to keep me in check.
No need to apologize. We are all here for the same thing, support.
Quote: Sorry - to go back and rehash this - I missed it earlier.
What I have learnt, I think, is about control and unconditional love. I can't make my H love me. All can do is exercise unconditional love for him and hope he comes back.
Even if it doesn't work out the way I want, at least I will feel proud of my own actions.
You and I have similar feelings about our spouses. I work every day to love my wife unconditionally, but am often tripped up be my need to be judgmental and right at the expense of my happiness. NO ONE else is suffering when I choose to judge. I do understand, though, that I have a right and a duty to protect myself from someone who continually makes choices that I find hurtful. The Bible does allow for all of us to protect ourselves (by distancing) from others who continually make hurtful (to us) choices.
I want to leave NO stone unturned in trying to DB/DR my M, especially since my W is hellbent on D. I am working diligently to become the man that God always intended for me to be in the beginning, because, I want to be THAT better man and besides, if my W were to decide to want to work on our M I will be markedly different than I was when our sitch began. I still backslide too often, but I am getting better at not kicking myself in the backside too long and instead taking my mistakes as learning opportunities to do better next time.
I know that, in the end, she may not be able to forgive me and we may not reconcile and build a better, stronger, more loving M. I know this. I want to feel proud that I did everything possible to make our restoration and reconciliation a possibility so that I am able to look at myself in the mirror, look in the eyes of our children, and kneel in prayer and be proud of myself and my efforts.
I am working diligently to become the man that God always intended for me to be in the beginning
I think you have found the key. I believe God gives us trials to bring us closer to him. Sometimes we have a hard time seeing what he wants us to do, and sometimes we do the wrong things. If we choose to ignore him we usually get another chance to go through those trials again until we listen to what he is saying.
Believe me, I didn't listen in my 1st M, but he has sure got my attention now. I am a classic example of one hard headed person. Guess that's why I got the chance to feel that load of bricks dropping on me again.
It sounds form you last post that you have a really good perspective on what you need to do and where you are going. Don't get discourage if you backslide, it takes time (and practice) for changes to become real and lasting.
"Our life is what our thoughts make it."
Marcus Aurelius
Quote: I think you have found the key. I believe God gives us trials to bring us closer to him. Sometimes we have a hard time seeing what he wants us to do, and sometimes we do the wrong things. If we choose to ignore him we usually get another chance to go through those trials again until we listen to what he is saying.
Amen, brother. I know that God has infinite patience in dealing with I am quite certain I have Him shaking His head watching my wayward journey.
Quote: It sounds from your last post that you have a really good perspective on what you need to do and where you are going. Don't get discouraged if you backslide, it takes time (and practice) for changes to become real and lasting.
Thank you again. My perspective is molded back into proper form by my DB/DR brethren who are NOT afraid to let me know when I have gone astray. With their infinite patience, grace, thoughtfulness, and heart I am progressing in my journey in a much more productive manner personally and with God's grace maritally. We will see.
For now I focus on working to become the man that God always intended for me to be. AND, I dote on our children like there is NO tomorrow. They are perfect angels and my most wonderful gift from God.
Quote: Thank you again. My perspective is molded back into proper form by my DB/DR brethren who are NOT afraid to let me know when I have gone astray. With their infinite patience, grace, thoughtfulness, and heart I am progressing in my journey in a much more productive manner personally and with God's grace maritally.
BLAH, BLAH, BLAH, HH.
You're talking, talking, talking too much again.
We know that when you're in the fire, sometimes all that can be heard is the kickin' & screaming.
