Quote: I have a 'get out of hell free' card so I'm covered. (http://www.goohf.com/)
Gotta get me a few of those! Nice!
Quote: I leave all the Jesus talks to Amy as she is much more educated than me on these matters. As far as I'm concerned, Jesus kicked A$$ and told it like it is.
I prefer to stay more abstract when it comes to spirituality and religious beliefs here because it fits MY environment better.
You are a good and decent man. You love your kids and you love your wife. That much I know.
Thank you. I do work to convey that sentiment daily.
Quote: After 2 hours of reading, I still don't know what YOU really want. And who you are inside.
When you posted this to me, I was really taken aback. I had to sit back and say, "Whoa!" Am I that vague? More importantly, am I that lost and confused? The unfortunate answer to both questions is YES! I lost ME somewhere in my courtship and M of my W. Sad but true.
Quote: I know who you THINK you are though. Guilty. A people pleaser. Still looking for approval. Still feeling like you have to 'make up' for everything - whatever 'everything' is. You have to 'sacrifice' yourself because, well, you were BAD. You've been doing this all your life haven't you, either 'fixing' or 'being needy?' Being the guilty one?
Yes, I do feel guilty for what I've done. I have worked on forgiving myself, but haven't been too successful in allowing myself to be free of that guilt. Sucks to be me right now. I can't get away from my own worst judge, ME! Yes, I am always looking for approval. Have been since I was a child. I was always the one who was supposed to know and do better than my other 7 siblings. I always felt "less than", "not good enough." Still do. Perhaps that is why I chose my W and vice versa. And yes, I have always and still do feel like I have to 'sacrifice' myself because I feel that I am BAD. I was always told or made to feel BAD or GUILTY. Haven't shaken that as an adult.
Quote: ...figuring that if I was 'needy' enough or codependent then my wife could NEVER leave me. How could she? I NEED her.
I especially identify with the codependent part. Throughout our entire M, how I felt about myself was totally dependent on how my W felt and/or felt about me. Standing back and looking at this from a distance I am not well. I am working on breaking that now, though. I have been telling my W during our time apart that I don't appreciate her mean/nasty/aggressive attitude and tone with me. My W responds that she does not believe that she does any of that and that is my sh*t. She doesn't even take a moment to consider how she treats me, what her part in our negative interaction is. I also know that my willingness to speak out against her mistreatment of my in the wake of my A makes her ability to see anything SHE might be doing that much more difficult.
Quote: Of course that continuously takes energy from her and as soon as she got the opportunity to be 'released' from those bonds she was out the door and in someone elses arms in a shot. And all OM had to do was just 'say' he loved her.
Talk about looking into a mirror. I see my M in your illustration. I never looked at my behavior as a drain on her. Stepping back, I can certainly see it clearly now.
Quote: She was so empty, drained, like your wife is now. Your affair is a symptom of YOUR problems. It is the catalyst for her to run away from HER problems. It is not THE problem.
THIS much I have already figured out.
Quote: It was stupid and you were wrong. So what. It's over now.
I know. My misdirected grasping to have my needs met. VERY stupid.
Quote: But understand THIS:
IF IT WASN'T THE AFFAIR, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN SOMETHING ELSE THAT TRIGGERED HER TO DO THIS. THIS HAS BEEN BUILDING ALL HER LIFE.
THIS I also figured out a long time ago, except for that part about it building all her life.
Quote: She is lost. She doesn't really know who she is. As a woman, as a wife, as a mother. She's running from all of these roles.
Thank you for putting my feelings about my W and her feelings/actions to the 'puter.
Quote: And you? You've been lost for years, haven't you? Are you tired of it?
Yes, and I didn't know it. I was so enmeshed in my M and children that I lost me and didn't even know I was missing.
Quote: Are you ready to take that journey, the one to find your true self, the self you lost years ago?
I have NEVER been more ready. I NEED to find me, to be me, for me and for my family. I am unclear how, though.
Quote: Or are you going to keep holding on to HER, thinking that if you hold on long enough, if you're GOOD long enough, it will all 'get better'? That's what you're doing, you focus on, and hold on to HER. And when she doesn't respond you beat yourself up for not being 'good'.
I am done with doing "more of the same." I have been SO AFRAID of losing my W, my M, and my family because I had already lost myself (or forfeited myself). Talk about a paralyzing, debilitating fear.
Quote: Where are YOU?
I don't see you. I looked everywhere in your threads and I don't see YOU there.
Quote: Unless I am supposed to believe that YOU are a guy who just rolls over and does whatever he's told to do because he doesn't have ANY value if he doesn't do things for others. I know that feeling. I know when I felt it that it wasn't ME. So I'm sure that when I hear that you are feeling it I KNOW it isn't really YOU - it's the little boy inside who want's to feel loved.
Scary! I didn't even realize how much I minimized myself and made myself invisible and unimportant in my own mind. I was stuck in the rut of only finding my self worth in doing for others, particularly my W. I am STILL in that rut and trying to break free and work my way back to being the strong, feisty, independent, confident man. I lost me. I want me back.
Quote: Well, you ARE loved. Your kids love you. They don't love you because you do things for them. They love you just because you are you. They don't know if you are good or bad. They don't know if you are right or wrong. They only see your soul. And they see that you are worth being loved.
Talk about driving a point home; straight to my heart and soul. Thank you.
Quote: The people here on this board don't expect you to 'do things' for us yet we talk to you, and we show you unconditional love. We give you parts of our energy and our experience because we WANT to. Why? To make us feel superior? nope. Because we like to 'fix' people? Nope. We don't fix ANYBODY. If only it were that easy! And we (or at least AmyC, GH and I for example) don't Bullsh&t people to make them 'feel better'.
We're here because we hear your words and they call to us, they tell us 'here is a man who want's to break free of his chains'. We can't do it for you, but we can support you.
And we want you to. But we can't do it for you. Because you made those chains. Only you can break them.
I know. You have all shown me this time and time again. THAT's why I keep coming back to learn, to process, to plot my course of how to find me again. Thank you all for being so giving and caring.
Quote: So forget a lot of what you think is true. Most of it's wrong anyway. You aren't a bad man. What you did was wrong, and you've atoned for it. Let it go. Your wife made choices that are wrong. She knows it. She knows she loves you. But she also knows that for the past number of years that it has been a difficult job - loving you - because she doesn't know how to love you without losing herself. And she CAN'T let herself love you right now because she HAS lost herself. She can't love anyone right now. Not until she loves herself. She thinks these 'guys' will fill that void - but they won't. And she'll fall hard when she figures that out.
I don't know how I make all of this so obvious to you from my posts but I can't see it. It may be because I am so close to my sitch. I will trust that what you culled from my posts is true.
Quote: And this is the hardest part. Ready? Here you go: YOU CAN'T DO ANYTHING TO CHANGE THIS. She has to figure this out on her own.
Quote: I hate this part. I WANT/NEED to fix this and I can't. I am working on fixing me now and THAT is a monumental task.
Quote: So here's your dillemma. You can keep holding on like you do, being meek and waiting for tidbits she might throw your way. Jumping when she says JUMP! You can keep punishing yourself, blaming your affair for this situation. You can keep telling yourself "She deserves to fool around after what I did". You can be that little boy who feels guilty. Unworthy.
or
You can be the man you are meant to be. ONE of you has to be strong, stable, unwavering, determined. A rock. For your KIDs sake and for HER sake it MUST be YOU.
She certainly isn't being strong, grounded or rational. Are you going to be? If not, then who will?
I'll take the latter, without question or hesitation. No more sitting on the fence. If I am going to lose my M, I am going to lose it being ME and going down fighting like a man. No more being afraid and meek. No more being who I think others want me to be.
I do have the courage to NOT give up what I think is right even though I think it is hopeless. I will be strong, stable, unwavering, determined. A rock. For our childrens' sake, for my W's sake AND for my sake!
Quote: Some things you've said in previous posts....
Quote: I read a great book, Wild at Heart which talks about a man finding his heart that he lost.
Did you really read it? I read it. It is a somewhat Christian book that discusses how men were not meant to be 'nice'. Or domesticated. We were meant to be like lions. Strong, Wild, Dangerous, Protective, Leader.
Yes, I absolutely read it. I need to re-read it and take notes this time. YOU got more out of it and retained more than I did.{quote]It talks about the world of "Posers", those who really are posing as someone else - not being who they really are. There is a quote I liked so much that I printed it in large letters on a paper and put it on my wall. It said:
Quote: The world of posers is shaken by a real man. You must let your strength show up because the world doesn't have a place for it. Fine. The world's screwed up.
Let people feel the weight of who you are and let THEM deal with it.
What does it mean? To me it means NOT to give in to being who you think OTHERS want you to be. Be who YOU are. And be proud of it.
Dead on. Hit me that same way. NOT how I have been living my life. I, embarassingly enough, have been living my life as a Poser. Not good. Terribly shameful and embarassing.
Quote:
Quote: I never worked to separate from my W to GAL during our M to nurture myself and allow her the opportunity to want to be with me. I truly believe that is the largest error I made because my needs were not being met b/c I was smothering her and she was running from me to "relax." I have only recently owned THAT.
SHE never learned to let you separate. You were both clinging to each other. It wasn't just you.
Until you posted THAT, I would never have even come close to seeing that point of view as even a possibility. Too busy blaming myself.
Quote: Once YOU truly separate yourself from her, she will see how much she really misses you. Right now she has you at her beck and call. You need to take that away from her. That's what DIVORCE means. She needs to see what if FEELS like NOW. Before she make a mistake and actually goes through with it.
You have driven the final nail in the coffin of meek, pliable POSER, HH. If I am truly to consider myself HOPEFUL, then tonight is the night that I change everything in my behavior, not just with my W, but in my LIFE. I truly am NOT a poser, but I became one during my M and THAT is NOT me. Definitely not. I have always been a strong, confident, capable, ALPHA male. I see who I have always been and who I have taken a long hiatus from being. NO MORE. I was blind and NOW I see.
Quote:
Quote: SHE is the one who told me that I AM on the deed and that I could ask to be "bought out" of the house. I did verify that I am, in fact, on the deed. The house has a LOT of equity. I just don't feel that would be the right thing to do, regardless of the outcome of our M troubles. Does that make sense here? It certainly doesn't to most of my RL friends and family, except one
You are correct. I do not want to make her more upset than she already is. Her heart is hardended right now. I don't want to make it petrified.
I do believe I will sign my name off the deed regardless. Yes, even with my name still on the loan. I believe it is the right thing to do. Right is right, always. Everything else will all come out as it should. I have control over being true to myself.
You are being a martyr. You took on the risks of taking that loan with her, your income helped pay for it. When you just roll over like this you look like a poser. Be a lion. Don't you want her to respect you? Make sure you are doing the CORRECT and PRUDENT thing with this decision.
Truly a poser dilemma. The poser says do what other say and expect. The lion says, NO! I put my neck under that guillotine of a loan w/o question. It is certainly NOT prudent to remove my name from the deed because someone else with a vested and selfish interest says to do so. NOW the internal battle begins. The poser who wants to lay down b/c he is afraid of losing his W or the LION who stands up for himself and lets the world feel the weight of who I am,. One problem. I am still very afraid of the feelings that my W and MIL will have towards me for being the LION I am. I'll work through it. Being a meek, pliable poser will surely only get me divorced.
Quote:
Quote: I know I will eventually be fine, it's just that right now I feel so weak and unsure. I actually always do land on my two feet despite my mistakes/messes. I just hate being in the valley, but that is where I learn what I am truly made of.
Yep, this isn't the first time. You fall down, you get up, you fall down, you get up.... kinda repetetive. Why don't you stop the cycle this time? You see how it works. Make it end. Get up and do it differently.
I said those words to myself right after my bomb came to light. NO MORE! I work each and every day to break that cycle b/c falling right back into it is so darn easy.
Quote:
Quote: am having such a difficult time remembering what I found fun b4 I met my wife. I know that she fell in love with me for a REASON (or 2 or 3).
Why don't you ask her? Tell her you are doing some soul searching and as part of your journey into finding yourself, you'd appreciate it if she could tell you the qualities she saw in you that caused her to fall in love with you. Then just listen. Thank her. Don't whine and ask her why she can't see them now. Be grateful she told you.
I will ask her in the manner you stated at the next opportunity we get. I'd really like to know what I seem to have forgotten.
Quote:
Quote: Amy said: I really should have elaborated when I used the term "revenge". I don't necessarily think she is consciously thinking "I'm going to make him pay". I think it is more like she doesn't want to deal with the pain so she is distancing herself from it by going hog-ass wild. Her exploits to date seem to all be rather shallow and that only adds to the suspicion that she is out of touch with her feelings (the drinking helps tremendously - is she still doing that?). What is her sitch like with OM? Her friends all seem to be folks that will accept her living this way...basically like a teenager.
Of course I totally agree. This is exactly what my W did. She told me later that when she looks back at the person she was during all that, she can't belive who she turned into. She manufactured a fantasy world.
I agree with Amy also. It's great to know that it's not just me who sees her actions this way.
Quote:
Quote: She knows our co-workers are going to make a beeline to tell me her antics. Oh, well, I always have the option of quitting and getting out of the direct line of fire, but I feel that would be letting her control me more than she already has in the past. I need to stand up and be a man, husband to her or not.
Yes, you do. Being a man means not getting sucked in to the noise. When she complains, you listen. When she tells people stuff she know you will hear - you don't react. You are above this. You are ready to live on a higher plane.
I will have been doing pretty well doing just that. One problem, I need to have a talk with my MIL regarding my job and whether I need to begin looking for a new job elsewhere. She'll be back in town late this week. I'll see.
Quote:
Quote: One more note, all. My W sent me an e-mail that said she is really angry b/c she doesn't get more help from me with the kids. I am the GREATEST father. Even in this mess, even while being pushed away I have been there for my children. I have reached out to help my W. It's never enough or my effort was "almost" what she needed. I have NEVER "measured up" and she makes sure I am aware of her displeasure/disappointment.
Read 'The Way of the Superior Man' by David Deida. "Her complaints are content-free". She's telling you she thinks you are a great father and when she puts you down it's because she really DOES want you to be there but she can't have you so she has to devalue your presence. Otherwise she'll feel like she might be wrong in leaving the relationship. She has to justify leaving you.
I ordered the book tonight online. Yes, I have often thught that much of her criticisms of me were 'content free. Tonight I talked with my W for a bit. I told her that I have value as a person separate from doing things for someone else (I had already read your post ). My W's response was, "Why would you say that? If you don't want to do something for me just say so." I responded that, "I do what I do for people because THAT is who I am, but I have value separate from providing a service to someone else." She seemed NOT to understand, so I asked her, "Don't you have value just being you?" THAT hit home with her. It may already be lost though.
Quote:
Quote: What I don't do is speak ill of my wife for playing the hand that I dealt her as she sees fit. It's her life; her right.
No, it isn't. She made a wedding vow AND she made children. When she did that she willingly gave up some of those 'rights'. Just like YOU did. She is just as wrong as you were.
This is the old me making excuses for my W (can we all say codependent?) and being a poser. No more. And yes, we both DID willingly give up some of those rights when we M and decided to have 2 children. BOTH of us.
Quote: YOU did not DEAL her this 'crappy hand'. She signed up for this journey with you just like you did with her. She REACTED to your actions the way she chose to. Period.
I KNOW this. We always have the opportunity to experience, feel, think and then RESPOND. I have given my W a 'free pass' from being an adult for too long. No more.
Quote: WIll YOU 'get the chance' to be the man she married. ONLY if you choose to. Let me say it again. ONLY IF YOU CHOOSE TO.
WHATEVER happens will happen because YOU manifested it. NOT because of what she does. When YOU make changes in your perceptions and actions, SHE will have no choice but to also change. YOU will manifest the outcome. If you stay stuck in the role of martyr and whipping boy that's what you'll be. .
I CHOOSE TO. I CHOOSE TO. i WILL MANIFEST THE OUTCOME. I WILL CHANGE MY PERCEPTIONS AND ACTIONS. No more being a poser.
Quote: But, if you become the rock, the solid, unshakable man that you are meant to be then she will notice. She has to. And she will wonder why ot was she ran from you.
It's all up to you. Will you do it? Are you ready?
If you will, we'll be here to support you.
I will do it. I am ready. I will need you support, I know this.
I have been wrapped up in the process. Progress, not process, needs to be my goal and it wasn't because of fear. I will post more tomorrow. It's 3:15 AM and I need to get some sleep. Thank you for the post.
Quote: ...as SOON as I read his post to me I was trying to come up with a polite way to say 'what the hell are you talking about? This is FLUFF'. Get to WORK. Stop BS'ing yourself.
I want to do just that, but I am afraid I am lost on how to get to work and THAT is embarassing and scary that I have allowed myself to get to messed up. I am NOT looking for politeness. I am thick-skinned. I need honesty adn direction, right between the eyes. Shoot it straight with/for me please. If I knew how to do what I need to do I wouldn't be where I am now, right?
Quote: But make no mistake, it's not like you are waiting to be picked up and taken to have a fun day out at the carnival. It's more like going through a terrifying house of mirrors where you will meet yourself and your past around every freakin corner and you can not escape.
But, if you stay frozen you won't ever start. If you don't start you won't ever finish.
So?
I am THAWED. I have begun. I will finish. I am no longer afraid of doing SOMETHING. I am afraid of continuing to do NOTHING. I will DB and rely on my brethren here for some direction. I will also talk A LOT less. Talking is my downfall. I will being DOING (or in my case, NOT doing) a lot more. I want to see progress in my sitch. I will not stay in the process for the sake of process. Stay with me. I will work to break these bonds.
Quote: One problem, I need to have a talk with my MIL regarding my job and whether I need to begin looking for a new job elsewhere. She'll be back in town late this week. I'll see.
All right. If no one else will touch this, I will.
How about you make your own decision about whether or not YOU WOULD LIKE to find another job?
All you owe MIL is your 2 weeks notice.
My honest opinion is that you should get another job. Your wife, at this point, LIKES that your co-workers tell you everything. So remove yourself from that environment, with no hard feelings and NO FRIGGIN WHINING OR EXCUSE MAKING. Just quietly apply for and get another job. Put in your notice as if it were any other job. Then leave. I really think that would be a step in the right direction. At this point, I think that in your wife's mind you are DEPENDENT on HER MOTHER to support your family. That just doesn't seem very manly, no matter how much of your own weight you pull.
I think Amy just said you weren't "manly" HH. Them's fighting words, lol.
Seriously, I do agree with her opinion here. It seems like this job is an issue. Can you get another job that is similar in pay, or that will let you pay the bills?
I lost ME somewhere in my courtship and M of my W. Sad but true.
). My W's response was, "Why would you say that? If you don't want to do something for me just say so." I responded that, "I do what I do for people because THAT is who I am, but I have value separate from providing a service to someone else." She seemed NOT to understand, so I asked her, "Don't you have value just being you?" THAT hit home with her. It may already be lost though.