For what is is worth, there is absolutely nothing wrong with KNOWING WHAT YOU ARE DEALING WITH. Since she has not been forthcoming with that info, you discovered it as need be. So please don't beat yourself up.
I hid my head in the sand while my DH and I were in the process of reconciling. I wish I hadn't. I would still have gotten back together with him, but I would have made a few other decisions. As it was, I now feel like I made decisions while playing with a "less than complete deck".
I think the no snooping thing applies at the start of the process when all emotions are so RAW and NEW. But if she has made the decision to get work on your marriage, and things don't seem "right", then finding out why is not a bad thing! LEARN TO TRUST YOUR GUT!
And I do agree, she needs to agree to absolutely no contact from OM if she is indeed working on the marriage. I suppose she can't control if he calls her, but she doesn't need to be calling him. I am sure she will deny that any of this is a big deal, but lets be honest - it is certainly a big deal to YOU.
Hang in there. Personally, I think she will admire a man who won't allow another man to tread in his territory.
Quote: First, (((((((((GH)))))))))). I know you are really having a hard time lately.
Thanks SS, but I would not get that close...I am dangerous in this state...I may take it the wrong way, lol.
Quote: I know you don't want to do this because you can see you are making progress, but you must BACK OFF. You are no longer in crisis mode. Your W has committed to staying in your M and she said she ended the A right? If the answer is yes, then you are in rebuilding mode. And that means you have to give her at least some mystery as well as some opportunity to pursue you.
Ok, ok. The problem is ANY attempt by me to pull back is immediately met with her asking me to come closer. For me to keep pulling back at that point, I would have to make it an issue. I would not have to be an a$$ but I assure you, she would take it that way. I don't know if I should give a crap right now but all the while, when it seemed like we were progressing towards something better, I guess it felt wrong to do this. I know I may need to rock the boat but I can't really figure out why it needs to be now. It should be up to me, and up to how much time I can stand to go by before I pull back, and thus, tell her WHY I am doing so because a "I can't do that while we are not intimate in any other way" may be the truth but only part of it.
I guess I just think that somehow my sitch is different (don't we all) in that my W WANTS me close to her but only as close as SHE wants but not as close as I want to be. Then she explains it as "This closeness (which is MUCH closer than during the A when I DID pull back and we had NO physical interaction) is building things back up again." She said that, along with the "I need more time" but I can't understand why it's taking THIS much time. That's why I really think most of this is just my historical lack of patience rearing it's ugly head.
Quote: How have you shown her you love and appreciate her in non-physical ways. (Have you done the 5 languages of love yet? If not, I would highly suggest doing so.)
It's the book I recommend to people right after DB/DR. That book was the second best thing I ever read in terms of understanding my sitch. Here's the thing. I THOUGHT (oh, and BTW, I never posted about this so it's new territory) her LL was Gifts, and that was reinforced by her seeming to like when I started buying her flowers and little things every once in awhile. Then she asked me one day to lay off the flowers and gifts. Then I heard through a friend of hers that she REALLY hated me buying her flowers and the other things. WTF! Sure, maybe she didn't like what I got, and I considered that, but to me, that means that maybe I was wrong about her LL.
To tell the truth, taking the LL tests for her (she would not take on herself) Gifts came up first and Acts of Service second, but I had a hard time choosing which things were more important to her. That sucked for 2 reasons. First, because it meant that I didn't know her as much as I thought I did and second, because I think I may have gotten her LL wrong.
SO, these days, I struggle with the LL question. Who knows, maybe she's a closet Quality Time girl. You know what, it's so hard because over the past several years it seems like NOTHING I did to show her love worked...and when I realize that, I look back at the state of our marriage and see that maybe there were just two empty tanks, with neither of us having any fuel to give to the other, let alone the right kind.
Quote: I have noticed that the less my H and I talk about the ow or our M the more things move forward. So as much as you want to, do not have an R talk. If she brings things up, what she really wants is for you to listen to her.
Please, GH, don't be afraid of taking temporary steps back for the sake of overall forward movement.
These two things seem to contradict each other. I guess you are saying to not R talk, but to pull back, EVEN if I have to make it a negative thing, if I think it will eventually help. Do I have that right?
Quote: Ok, ok. The problem is ANY attempt by me to pull back is immediately met with her asking me to come closer.
I can really relate to this, and I've been having some trouble with how to get more space if I want/need it without contributing to a mini-crisis. To me, this comes down to control. My W wants to know that she has a certain amount of control over me, and that comes from not knowing, or not being willing to take responsibility for herself, and therefore not having control over herself.
Quote: For me to keep pulling back at that point, I would have to make it an issue.
Might not be a bad thing to create some "issues" of your own. Again, only because I think I can relate to your sitch through mine, I have to draw on some assumptions I have about how certain motivations work in my W. I think that because she's threatening the R, all the power is in her hands, and she likes this. She needs to have power over something/someone else in order to feel a sense of strength, and she doesn't nourish that power over herself (hell, she doesn't even eat proper meals). So, if everything is perceptable as an attempt to meet her demands (implicit or explicit) so that she'll stay in the R, she has all the power. Why be intimate with a weakling that you control? Maybe there's an opportunity for you to do something different, something that can upset this dynamic. Something subtle that will cue her into realizing that you are 2 people who each have the same amount of power over their own status in the R.
Oh, and if you figure out how to do this without doing something really drastic, let me know!
Quote: I would not have to be an a$$ but I assure you, she would take it that way.
Of course, because you're taking away something, a part of her she thinks, that she is entitled to.
Quote: I don't know if I should give a crap right now but all the while, when it seemed like we were progressing towards something better, I guess it felt wrong to do this.
Something that I really struggle with is this right here. It seemed like you were progressing. In other words, it seemed like she was coming around. It seemed like she was giving you more of what you wanted. Maybe she's just giving you little bits and pieces of what you want in order to maintain status quo. Maybe it felt wrong to you, not because it would have been, but because you were afraid that she would withhold herself again. This is where I start to think Shppd is on to something. Direct confrontation. If she's in the relationship, then she needs to commit. She should come up with an action plan about how you both can begin to repair your relationship. If she isn't committed, well then, you should know that too. Regardless, you shouldn't ever feel like you are being controlled through your fear, or rather that you're being held over a barrel and if you don't perform the right way, she's gone.
Quote: I guess I just think that somehow my sitch is different (don't we all) in that my W WANTS me close to her but only as close as SHE wants but not as close as I want to be. Then she explains it as "This closeness (which is MUCH closer than during the A when I DID pull back and we had NO physical interaction) is building things back up again." She said that, along with the "I need more time" but I can't understand why it's taking THIS much time. That's why I really think most of this is just my historical lack of patience rearing it's ugly head.
Quite possibly because W needs more time to center herself, or rather because she needs to get more time without interference from anyone else in which to find herself again. She needs to redefine herself in this life you have together, not just accept it for what it is. She needs to take an active part in it. With OM still a part of her life she's still not in the door with you. You're just talking to each other through an open door now. How intimate is that?
Quote: You know what, it's so hard because over the past several years it seems like NOTHING I did to show her love worked...and when I realize that, I look back at the state of our marriage and see that maybe there were just two empty tanks, with neither of us having any fuel to give to the other, let alone the right kind.
Yuck - these kind of realizations feel like crap, and the metaphor makes it seem that much more dire. Using fuel as a metaphor makes the situation hopeless. How can you fill a tank with no fuel? If you have none, you have none. Love is an action. As long as you are alive, you can never look for it and come up empty. True, you can learn to express it in a way that's received more readily, but it's there. Also, what do you mean by WORKED? Are you again using her happiness as an index of how well you loved her?
Quote: I guess you are saying to not R talk, but to pull back, EVEN if I have to make it a negative thing, if I think it will eventually help. Do I have that right?
The difficulty here with not having the R talks is that your perspectives are different. If you are always looking for the positives, and she is somewhat ambivalent, then your views will clash. She has to WANT to see the positives in the R before it will get better. Distance may make her more aware of her part in her happiness. Yes, you do have every right to do with yourself as you please. If you want to back off, do it. If you want to separate, do it.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Ok, first of all, please, if you have time, and have any, I'd still like thoughts on my reply to SS.
This is just a wrap up on the day before I leave work for home.
She finally called me after about an hour and a half after I left her a message. She didn't make any excuse or ever say why it took so long. I asked how her stuff went and she gave me the answer I had in my head as the one that would trigger more suspicion (DAMN ME, I AM DOING IT AGAIN). She said that she talked to the community service people and basically they said she could come in whenever. She already knew that. She said today was when she would actually pick days to go. I asked her about that and she said she didn't really know when she wanted to do it...WTH? She was going there, she said, to pick her dates and now says she didn't know when she wanted to do it. Of course I am thinking this is because she never went there and didn't get a schedule so what else is she going to say.
I don't know. This feels like the "bad ole days" again where I had trouble seperating reality from the world in my head. You long time follwers of my sitch know that it's an issue I addressed with my C early on and she agreed that it was causing me a LOT of issues in my life and marriage. I worked VERY hard to live in the moment and not speculate/predict the outcome of things. Now I am doing it again. Gotta stop.
The bottom line is that as shippd said, I gotta make up my mind what I need to do and then do it. Dwelling on this is going to drive me insane.
I think I will basically say to her (IF I have the convo SS, I have not forgotten your advice)...
"W, I appreciated when you said we were going to have an open, honest relationship from now on. I took that to heart, and I believe you did too. I also know you said you needed more time to figure yourself out, and I have given that to you, and will continue to. What I need to figure out is what this barrier is between us, that seems to be preventing us growing beyond friendship, or rather I want to know what it is NOT.
I know you said our problems were not about OM, and I agree, but you also agreed with me that while he was in the picture, things would not improve between us.
With that in mind, and my perception that things are moving very slowly, if at all in terms of our growth "together" I just want you to look me in the eyes and tell me that the OM is gone for good and is NOT the barrier that is slowing or preventing our progress. (if she does do that...or even if she does not..continuing...) Because I believe you will be honest with me if I ask you directly, I also want to know when the last time you spoke to him or saw him was."
I still don't know if I will go through with it or not.
She just called me to say that she rented a movie for us to watch tonight (that's usualy my domain, she is usually happy to be on her own at night ) so it seems like OUR life is not really affected by whatever may or may not have happened today.
Ah muddle...my long winded brother from another mother. At least I'm not the only one who can fill up the screens with type, lol. Thanks again for being around right now.
Quote: Might not be a bad thing to create some "issues" of your own. Again, only because I think I can relate to your sitch through mine, I have to draw on some assumptions I have about how certain motivations work in my W. I think that because she's threatening the R, all the power is in her hands, and she likes this.
Yep. Not much more to say. I think you are right on with this yet...
Quote: Oh, and if you figure out how to do this without doing something really drastic, let me know!
I can't. I swear I've tried. I know I tell people all the time to not worry about what their spouse will do, or say in response to something THEY want to do, but when it comes to physical intimacy, or lack thereof, there is a somewhat different set of rules...i think. I know that I actually LIKE rubbing her back. It's pleasurable to me and she knows I like doing it. For me to stop doing that, she will instantly know that I am depriving myself AS WELL as her of something we both enjoy...for what? To make a point? To get sex? To pressure her into reciprocating? I don't know, but what I do know is that there DOES SEEM to be some progress being made and it's all in how she's reacting to the rubbing, i.e. noises, seeming to enjoy it more and more, so I am really hesitant to end that just to take a gamble that time and gradual build up is NOT what is needed here.
I can't figure out how to do this without, as you say, averting a crisis. I know a crisis may be needed but damn if it isn't hard to tell if it's the right thing to do.
Shippd asked me if I was acting, or NOT acting because of fear and I guess the honest answer is yes, I am afraid of making the wrong choice. I am not convinced AT ALL that my W doesn't just need a bit more time to "get there".
Quote: Also, what do you mean by WORKED? Are you again using her happiness as an index of how well you loved her?
Well, in terms of HER perception of my love, yes. The 5 Love Languages talks a lot about making sure we learn to express love in our SPOUSES language, not our own (and yes, that we learn to understand their language as well). I really believe in what that book talks about and basically that is what all this paragraph was about.
Quote: Yes, you do have every right to do with yourself as you please.
That's the problem...too much doing with myself and not enough doing with her
Sorry if I'm offering contradictory advice. All I'm trying to say is that everything is a chase. For your W to move forward, you have to enable her to chase you.
And, yes, sometimes we have to give up things that make us happy in the short term, a negative if you will, to further our long-term happiness. Over the 4th of July I really wanted to be with my H and he knew this. Instead I decided to go out of town. I think it made him realize that not only am I not going to be constantly accessible to him but that he wanted to see me more than he realized.
There must be a way to take small steps back from your W that don't push her to the point of being pissed off. Perhaps tell her that she is right that you both need more time or that you need to take a step and sort out your own feelings.
Try and explain to her you understand it's not her thing but it will only take 5 minutes and a very long back massage is in it for her. I can't remember how I got my H to take it but I had him take it for himself and for me and then did the same. We were close but got a few things off. So stop guessing what your W wants. Maybe you can tell her that she said she would rather you be direct with her and this is part of that.
I'm not sure if that clarified anything or added to the confusion.
But, whatever you do, don't bring up the om or start a R talk. Really this is not so much about her leaving him, as about your W coming back to you. Have a little faith in your W's love for you.
gh the conversation you said you might have, first thing, at this point you atleast know she has TRIED to contact om for what ever reason she has, that is fact. now if you have the conversation the way you wrote, if she says no she has not talked to him, (because lets be honest here) she will not say oh yea i called him last night just to see how he is doing, are you going to be ok with that knowing she is lieing to you. see this is where i differ, i think when you told her that you would be totally honest with her, that well you are lieing to her so why isnt she going to lie to you. honestly why should you expect anything else. i guess i would just come out and ask her why she has contacted om, and remind her to be honest with you because you are being honest with her about knowing she has contacted him. i feel if you two just like all of us here, want to start over our r in a new beginnning with honest and trust, then well we have to uphold our end of the bargin, im sorry man but i dont think beating around the bush is the way to go. she might be angry that you know, but then atleast you are being honest with her about it and she might respect you for it.
gh, what im telling you is this, if you feel stongly that you need to know WHY she contacted om, then you have to be open and honest with HER about know she has. im not telling you to bet your chest and demand to know, you can still be loving and caring about it, but dont lie to her. tell her the TRUTH, you want her to so well you have to also. this is what i would say: dear, i know you have been in contact with om, im not going into details as of how i know, but it do. i understand that there may be some unresolved issues between you two, but i need to know what those are, i does bother me that you have not told me you have been in contact with him, please im being honest with you about knowing, i am just asking you to be honest with me as to why you two are still in contact. thats how i would say it, but i am different than you, but when i promised my w i would be honest with her with what ever was bothering me i have to hold that promise, so please if you need to know the tell her the truth.
) so it seems like OUR life is not really affected by whatever may or may not have happened today.