In DB and other marraige-saving efforts, we learn that we need to look within ourselves and by changing that, it has a profound effect on the M and our spouses. So, we get stuck feeling that everything we say and do will have an effect, good or bad. If I do X, things will get better. If I do Y, it will push them away. So, even though we tell ourselves we can't control anything but ourselves, we're still deluded to think that we DO have control through OUR actions. Wrong. I know that initially most everyone will say "no, I don't think I can control it" but just our very efforts of trying and seeing no results confirms this.
What I'm learning, mostly b/c my H is in MLC, is that at times, no matter WHAT I do or don't do, it doesn't make a difference...b/c H is in his own world, seeing things through his own filter, has a bag of his own emotions, and it's NOT ABOUT ME. It's been, and still is, the hardest thing for me to understand. Also, the other thing I learned in MLC readings and reflecting on my own poor behavior in M, is that you lash out the worst, about everything in life, on the one thing/person that you know will take it most, loves you most and will not leave. Isn't that sad.
So, how does this apply to your current M? You said W was stressed over other things? True. You said it's not you. True, b/c you're different now, what she wanted, you're happy, you act differently toward her, and most of all, you are offering her unconditional love and forgiveness for a "horrible deed" the A. Great, right? Well, if you are changed and she's still miserable, then it's not you, my friend. It's everything else in life, but she takes it out on you, b/c you're closest and that unhealthy pattern is established. You don't have a pattern of her coming to you for support, for her NOT lashing things out on you, etc. If you ask her if she's OK and she doesnt' talk, how about initiating a few comments "hey, I know things are tough with your parents and I'm sorry abotu that, as I know t makes you feel like a kid again and is annoying....I want to support you through that and know that you don't have to feel that way here...I know it's rough and sorry." It will mean a LOT. Women love it when men are perceptive, but not controlling and fixers.
Another thing...I think she's having a REALLY hard time accepting your forgiveness and unconditional love b/c she's feeling horrible. My H said that it made him feel so bad when I treated him well, and wasn't mad. It's a manifestation of their own guilt. When you feel low, and undeserving, it's hard to accept the greatest gift of all, true understanding and love from another human being. I will admit, that I feel so bad for my actions in M, that I feel the same. I want the forgiveness, but will have a hard time accepting. So she still lashes out and acts cold b/c she can't forgive herself, or even face it. She's numb and grieving what she did. In some twisted way, it's easier to push the M into the cycle of dysfunction that to take the forgiveness and make it healthy....that means facing your sins and guilt and the goodness in yourself and another.
So....your W is going through a LOT of emotions. I hardly think that the issue of physical intimacy with you is even on her mind, or that she is aware it's an issue for you. You're FAR ahead of her now my friend. You need to wait a little. It would be nice if she went for some help now, or opened up, but until then, more patience. Know that this whole phase is NOT ABOUT YOU. You cannot fix this, make it better, work on it, think it through, analyze it.....it's a whole mess of issues in HER mind and life. As much as we try to imagine what it was like for her to start the A, why, the guilt, what happened and be in their shoes and be empathetic and compassionate....YOU WERE NOT the one who did it. We will never feel the pain, the guilt, the remorse that they go through. The confusion, the depression, the humiliation.
So, that being said, a healthy sex drive is the LAST thing on her mind. I know we're asking more patience from you, but at least understand that this has nothing to do with you. You are a wonderful husband, and that very thing, right now, may be part of the issue of her coming forward. But, don't change a thing. Until she realizes that she IS worthy of you and your love, she will be stuck...but you need to keep showing her.
Quote: In DB and other marriage-saving efforts, we learn that we need to look within ourselves and by changing that, it has a profound effect on the M and our spouses. So, we get stuck feeling that everything we say and do will have an effect, good or bad. If I do X, things will get better. If I do Y, it will push them away. So, even though we tell ourselves we can't control anything but ourselves, we're still deluded to think that we DO have control through OUR actions. Wrong. I know that initially most everyone will say "no, I don't think I can control it" but just our very efforts of trying and seeing no results confirms this.
I think muddle and I touched on this in our recent debate on his thread. I don't think we CONTROL them, but we do influence them to a certain extent, and MLC can indeed minimize the amount of that influence, as can an active affair.
Quote: Well, if you are changed and she's still miserable, then it's not you, my friend.
I think I know this but I still take things personally. I'm working on it.
Quote: If you ask her if she's OK and she doesn't' talk, how about initiating a few comments "hey, I know things are tough with your parents and I'm sorry about that, as I know t makes you feel like a kid again and is annoying....
In terms of initiating my convos with her with stuff like "I know it must have been hard to talk to your mom last night. Sorry it was so rough"...I do that all the time. For the sake of a SLIGHTLY shorter post, I sometimes omit those details. That said, I need to do more of that.
Quote: Another thing...I think she's having a REALLY hard time accepting your forgiveness and unconditional love b/c she's feeling horrible.
I really struggle with this. I see SO little evidence that she even thinks about "us" or what she's done in the past. It seems like she is just still unhappy with her life and I am a part of that life she's unhappy with. Again, I still take it personally yet I know that's wrong.
Quote: She's numb and grieving what she did. In some twisted way, it's easier to push the M into the cycle of dysfunction that to take the forgiveness and make it healthy....that means facing your sins and guilt and the goodness in yourself and another.
Again, I just don't see this. It seems easier for me to believe that she is grieving the loss of OM and regretting the decision to come back into the marriage. In my twisted mind, I feel like if she really wanted to be here, she would be doing something to help improve things, but I truly see where you are coming from in what you say.
Quote: So, that being said, a healthy sex drive is the LAST thing on her mind. I know we're asking more patience from you, but at least understand that this has nothing to do with you. You are a wonderful husband, and that very thing, right now, may be part of the issue of her coming forward. But, don't change a thing. Until she realizes that she IS worthy of you and your love, she will be stuck...but you need to keep showing her.
I want to keep showing her, but I am so afraid all I am showing her is that I am ok with life like is was, without passion and one-sided in terms of affection (me to her). I am NOT ok with those things and I am afraid that she may be testing me, trying to see if I am going to just sit back and be complacent like I was before. I am afraid that she is seeing more of the same thing that helped kill the marriage for her.
I truly don't THINK that's what's going on, but it lurks in the dark places of my mind. I believe what you are saying is closer to the truth, I just wish she would TELL me that. I guess I want too much sometimes.
As far as the sex goes, I guess that's an expectation that I have built up that is causing me GREAT damage right now and threatens to damage the process right now. I need to find a way to get rid of that expectation. For me, that would mean somehow not WANTING that, and from there, not pursuing it anymore through my acts of intimacy (little touches, hugs, etc). I am not saying that I ONLY do those thing in hopes of sex, but there IS that component and I KNOW she thinks that's why I do it.
Anyway, as you know, it's complicated.
Always, I love that you posted those things to me because I really feel that more patience is what I need in my sitch. The way you put it, in detail, really helps me define what I need to do.
Again, thank you my friend for giving me these things to think about today. I really needed it. I feel slightly guilty because I never feel I have much to add to your thread...
Quote: So, we get stuck feeling that everything we say and do will have an effect, good or bad. If I do X, things will get better. If I do Y, it will push them away. So, even though we tell ourselves we can't control anything but ourselves, we're still deluded to think that we DO have control through OUR actions. Wrong. I know that initially most everyone will say "no, I don't think I can control it" but just our very efforts of trying and seeing no results confirms this.
I think muddle and I touched on this in our recent debate on his thread. I don't think we CONTROL them, but we do influence them to a certain extent, and MLC can indeed minimize the amount of that influence, as can an active affair.
I'll try to keep any philosophy to a minimum here! I think the point is that we work on ourselves and keep the focus on ourselves so that if and when those running away look our way, we will influence them in a way that we intend, not through an emotional response that will work counter to our intentions. I think the key is that THEY have to be receptive. Of course they exist in their own world, but when they look our way, we want to influence them in the best way possible, and that is by being the best we can be.
Quote: I want to keep showing her, but I am so afraid all I am showing her is that I am ok with life like is was, without passion and one-sided in terms of affection (me to her). I am NOT ok with those things and I am afraid that she may be testing me, trying to see if I am going to just sit back and be complacent like I was before. I am afraid that she is seeing more of the same thing that helped kill the marriage for her.
So, you're motivated by fear again here? Maybe it's a good thing you're not getting what you want, otherwise you might just become complacent again because your motivation will have ceased to be. How can you approach this from a different direction entirely? Have you explored the person OM made your wife feel like? I think this is central to why WASs continue an A - how it makes them feel about themselves, it allows them the opportunity to redefine who they are. I know in my sitch my W told me pretty much flat out "I could never have a R with him because I couldn't ever trust him" but yet she continues. So, she must like the person she is in that R, or certain aspects of it, more than she likes who she is in REAL life. Maybe you can find this out about your W and focus on bringing it out in her in her real life.
Quote: As far as the sex goes, I guess that's an expectation that I have built up that is causing me GREAT damage right now and threatens to damage the process right now. I need to find a way to get rid of that expectation.
If you weren't in a R now, but rather where I am, I think I would agree wholeheartedly with you. But, since your W has recommitted, I can't. I think sex is a need that's expected to be filled in all marriages. Not to say you're entitled, but it is expected. Your expectations and desires are just as important and valid as her reasons why she isn't interested or rather afraid. Do you know what these reasons are yet through any direct conversation?
Quote: For me, that would mean somehow not WANTING that, and from there, not pursuing it anymore through my acts of intimacy (little touches, hugs, etc). I am not saying that I ONLY do those thing in hopes of sex, but there IS that component and I KNOW she thinks that's why I do it.
This sounds to me like a product of the lack of direct communication between you. If you were to have been more direct about wanting sex when you wanted it, and less indirect about setting up the mood (manipulating W into wanting it too) she might be less wary when you do these things without expectation. She might trust you more now.
Easily said, but the dynamic of a R with all its history is not easy to change. I think that you need to be a little more brave and come out and tell your W directly what you want when you want it. This in and of itself might change the way she views you. I would say that you should stop sublimating your desires and feelings and start expressing them (not that I really know if and how you're doing this now, but it often comes across that you assume things about how your W views things and she confirms your assumptions, which to me means that you're not communicating directly with each other).
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: So, you're motivated by fear again here? Maybe it's a good thing you're not getting what you want, otherwise you might just become complacent again because your motivation will have ceased to be.
Very good point. Actually, one of the things I HATE recently is that I have already become complacent and there is still a LONG way to go even to get back to "normal" let alone something BETTER than normal, which is my ultimate goal. Again, very good point. I have to look at my motivation and make sure I am operating from something other than fear.
Quote: How can you approach this from a different direction entirely? Have you explored the person OM made your wife feel like? I think this is central to why WASs continue an A - how it makes them feel about themselves, it allows them the opportunity to redefine who they are.
Yes, I have done this extensively. She has told me what he made her feel like and it SEEMS all tied to the passion aspect of their relationship (er, which BTW makes me think she STILL has not told me ALL of the "physical" stuff they did, i.e. sex). She said he was a good listener and though she didn't quite say it, I know she liked the fact that he was strong, both physically and mentally (or so she THOUGHT, until the end when he snapped).
To the point that I can, in keeping with my PERSONAL goals of self-improvement, I have looked at the aspects of OM that are positive and checked to see if those are things I want to work on myself. Some of them are and some aren't. I can't become a muscle bound personal trainer over night, but I can focus more on my fitness, something I already wanted to do. I can't erase years of BAD listening skills but I can learn how to be better, something I knew I already needed to do.
I guess I am saying that I have, through my own speculation and what my W has told me, put together a picture of what she was like with him and while I don't know if we could, or really, if I WANT to be like that, I THINK I understand how she wants to feel and think she can feel that way in our R too given time.
Quote: But, since your W has recommitted, I can't. I think sex is a need that's expected to be filled in all marriages. Not to say you're entitled, but it is expected. Your expectations and desires are just as important and valid as her reasons why she isn't interested or rather afraid. Do you know what these reasons are yet through any direct conversation?
Ok, I agree with you in general, but for me it's all about timing. I KNOW sex is not something I can leave out of my marriage. It is something that I need as part of our relationship and if it never came back into it, I could not continue. That said, it does not have to happen tonight...or tomorrow night, etc. I CAN wait but I guess I am looking for some light at the end of the tunnel, which her "it won't always be like this" comment the other night gave to me to a certain extent.
As for her reasons, well, no, other than her saying she needs more time, she has not elaborated. I have always suspected that one of the big reasons is that guilt over the extent of their physical involvement is holding her back. I THINK she would have to confess that to me before going any further than we have. I don't know that with ANY certainty but it fits for sure. Other than that, who knows. Maybe, as it's been suggested by some other posters, she just needs time to reconnect emotionally before she can get back to "that" place with me.
Quote: This sounds to me like a product of the lack of direct communication between you. If you were to have been more direct about wanting sex when you wanted it, and less indirect about setting up the mood (manipulating W into wanting it too) she might be less wary when you do these things without expectation. She might trust you more now.
No, that would be more of the same from me. I used to leave nothing to the imagination when I wanted sex. She knew it because I would either just come out and say so, or make it SO obvious... Anyway, she HATED that. She HATED that I stopped trying to seduce her or set a "mood" for her. She felt like I just expected her to turn on with a switch and jump into in feet first. For me to be "open" about what and when I wanted it would be just me retuning to the "old" me. She has clearly told me with no amount of subtlety that my "directness" about sex is one of the large reasons why she never wanted to have it. There was no mystery, no romance, no mood what-so-ever, just "Me man, me want sex." It's all part of the issues we have with virtually NO intimacy outside the bedroom.
One thing that I CAN do is talk in general about what I want and need in that respect, and I will do that sooner or later.
Quote: I would say that you should stop sublimating your desires and feelings and start expressing them
Actually, muddle, I think the opposite is the problem. I have yet to sublimate my desires and feelings. I still wear them on my sleeve to the extent that I am pretty sure she still thinks I want sex 24/7 and think about little else. She's right BTW, but I think if I could somehow change that, at least her perception that SEX is all I want, and she is just the most convenient person for me to have it with, a LOT of progress will be made. Again, she has told me that is how she felt most of the time by the way I USED to approach things. Everything I do these days is all about me expressing how I feel about HER and how much I want to be intimate (not just sex) with her but dammit, the fact that I have not HAD sex in somewhere around 9 months clouds the picture a bit and makes it hard for either of us to believe my motivation is anything but a physical longing for sex.
When I can step back and look at the big picture, like I did late last night, I KNOW things are heading in the right direction. I KNOW good things will come to me who waits. It's just those times when I am SO far into the sitch that the big picture is WAY out of my field of vision that I get lost.
Quote: How can you approach this from a different direction entirely? Have you explored the person OM made your wife feel like? I think this is central to why WASs continue an A - how it makes them feel about themselves, it allows them the opportunity to redefine who they are.
Yes, I have done this extensively. She has told me what he made her feel like and it SEEMS all tied to the passion aspect of their relationship (er, which BTW makes me think she STILL has not told me ALL of the "physical" stuff they did, i.e. sex). She said he was a good listener and though she didn't quite say it, I know she liked the fact that he was strong, both physically and mentally (or so she THOUGHT, until the end when he snapped).
Part of the key here is what we all have learned so well. Nobody makes anyone else feel anything. A relationship gives you a forum to feel what you expect to, and what you put into it. The partner can prevent feelings and give reason for recoil, but they don't create the feelings in you. Actions create feelings, not the other way around. If your W wants to feel this way about herself, she has to be willing to interact with you as this person she wants to be. There has to be a way that you can give her opportunity to express to you who this person is.
Quote: To the point that I can, in keeping with my PERSONAL goals of self-improvement, I have looked at the aspects of OM that are positive and checked to see if those are things I want to work on myself. Some of them are and some aren't. I can't become a muscle bound personal trainer over night, but I can focus more on my fitness, something I already wanted to do. I can't erase years of BAD listening skills but I can learn how to be better, something I knew I already needed to do.
Again, the OM has little to nothing to do with it. He is an object that she focused her feelings and energy on. Maybe she obsessed about his qualities, but we all have qualities that can be adored or despised at our S's discretion.
Quote: I guess I am saying that I have, through my own speculation and what my W has told me, put together a picture of what she was like with him and while I don't know if we could, or really, if I WANT to be like that, I THINK I understand how she wants to feel and think she can feel that way in our R too given time.
Here's the thing - I don't think you need to change to encourage her feeling this way, but rather, I think you need to learn where you are DIScouraging her from being this person.
Quote:
Quote: This sounds to me like a product of the lack of direct communication between you. If you were to have been more direct about wanting sex when you wanted it, and less indirect about setting up the mood (manipulating W into wanting it too) she might be less wary when you do these things without expectation. She might trust you more now.
No, that would be more of the same from me. . . she HATED that. She HATED that I stopped trying to seduce her or set a "mood" for her. . . She has clearly told me with no amount of subtlety that my "directness" about sex is one of the large reasons why she never wanted to have it. There was no mystery, no romance, no mood what-so-ever, just "Me man, me want sex." It's all part of the issues we have with virtually NO intimacy outside the bedroom.
I don't know if I'm going farther off base by suggesting this, but I think that all the setting the mood stuff is putting pressure on her (in a sense - still more of the same). I wonder how much OM had to set the mood. To me, constantly working on her with physical affection is STILL saying "me man, me want sex" you're just more aware that the old way of saying "give it to me now" doesn't work. Maybe you can still be direct, but do it at different times. Give her something to fantasize about. Let her build up the expected experience in her mind, not think that she's going to have to give in and service you at some point. Have some fun with it. Don't stress yourself out about it either.
Quote: One thing that I CAN do is talk in general about what I want and need in that respect, and I will do that sooner or later.
Maybe this isn't a bad idea, maybe it is. If she likes the whole pursuit game, this might blow it all. But it might also clear up a lot for you as far as her hang ups go.
Quote:
Quote: I would say that you should stop sublimating your desires and feelings and start expressing them
Actually, muddle, I think the opposite is the problem. I have yet to sublimate my desires and feelings.
Well, maybe sublimate is not the word, but I think you are well aware that your feelings need to be supressed in regard to your W, and this is handicapping you. You're making everything all about her, and this might be putting too much pressure on her as well.
Quote: dammit, the fact that I have not HAD sex in somewhere around 9 months clouds the picture a bit and makes it hard for either of us to believe my motivation is anything but a physical longing for sex.
The trickiest thing for us men is that we're willing to lie to ourselves about our sexual motives and trick ourselves into thinking that it's about something else. If she wants to see you're sincere about your other motives, well then she just has to have sex with you and see how you act once you take that out of the equation. As long as she holds out ANYTHING you do can be seen as a means to an end, right?
Quote: When I can step back and look at the big picture, like I did late last night, I KNOW things are heading in the right direction. I KNOW good things will come to me who waits. It's just those times when I am SO far into the sitch that the big picture is WAY out of my field of vision that I get lost.
Of course this is true, but finding that balance where you're patient but not complacent is difficult. I also think there has to be a time when you don't have to be so patient any more.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: Nobody makes anyone else feel anything. A relationship gives you a forum to feel what you expect to, and what you put into it. The partner can prevent feelings and give reason for recoil, but they don't create the feelings in you. Actions create feelings, not the other way around. If your W wants to feel this way about herself, she has to be willing to interact with you as this person she wants to be. There has to be a way that you can give her opportunity to express to you who this person is.
Yep. I see your point and it is well taken.
Quote: Again, the OM has little to nothing to do with it. He is an object that she focused her feelings and energy on. Maybe she obsessed about his qualities, but we all have qualities that can be adored or despised at our S's discretion.
You know I felt weird about posting all that "I wanna be him" sounding crap because I KNEW it's not what I meant but I guess I was just trying to say that there are thing about ME that I WANT to bring out more that are probably similar qualities HE had that encouraged her to be who she liked being with him. I hate that I made it sound like I am using that a$$hole as some kind of role model or something. Far from it, I am just acknowledging that she WAS able to feel a certain way with him, and she USED to feel that way with me so I want to get back to being that man I once was, that I WANT to be for my own sake AND the sake of the marriage.
Quote: Here's the thing - I don't think you need to change to encourage her feeling this way, but rather, I think you need to learn where you are DIScouraging her from being this person.
Yes. See above. I know that, and as I think I said in my last post, I think through my own soul searching and her conversations with me where she's opened up about what she like and does not like in our R, I am VERY aware of what prevented her from, well, feeling like a WOMAN in our marriage. This is really the essence of it all. She just wants to feel like a woman, a desired, admired, respected, loved, WOMAN and most of what I did in the past, ESPECIALLY since the kids have been born has not really fostered that feeling in her. Sure, I can't MAKE her feel something, but I can assure you that my behavior towards her over the years did nothing to help her feel like she wanted to feel and that's the sad part. It's not my fault per se but there are things I can change about me that WILL help, of this I am sure.
Quote: I don't know if I'm going farther off base by suggesting this, but I think that all the setting the mood stuff is putting pressure on her (in a sense - still more of the same). I wonder how much OM had to set the mood. To me, constantly working on her with physical affection is STILL saying "me man, me want sex" you're just more aware that the old way of saying "give it to me now" doesn't work. Maybe you can still be direct, but do it at different times. Give her something to fantasize about. Let her build up the expected experience in her mind, not think that she's going to have to give in and service you at some point. Have some fun with it. Don't stress yourself out about it either.
You know muddle, first of all, in the middle of all this, thank you for being here with me now. Your words are really helping me these days. In terms of this particular statement, I think you are 100% correct, which is why I am posting so much about this lately. I KNOW my "mood" setting and all the other more subtle things are not as subtle as I think they are. I think I am still pounding her over the head with my "need" for sex. I really do a good job MOST of the time of keeping it light and fun but as I alluded to the other day, just now, and as you alluded to, I think these things, light or otherwise, are still hitting her like a ton of sexual bricks and it's not really helping. That's just my instinct, which for obvious reasons, I don't necessarily trust these days.
I will take your advice though and when I DO do something, just switch it up a bit, do something different, maybe try being more direct again, etc.
Quote: If she wants to see you're sincere about your other motives, well then she just has to have sex with you and see how you act once you take that out of the equation. As long as she holds out ANYTHING you do can be seen as a means to an end, right?
I have said this before, but you put it into words again. This is something I FEEL VERY STRONGLY. How can she know my "intimacy" outside the bedroom is for real, i.e. NOT all about getting her into bed, until she gets into bed with me, so-to-speak, and then the intimacy continues? That is one of the reasons why I don't think it's as simple as her not trusting my sincerity. I think there is more to the barrier than that, and it's what I either have to wait out and hope she manages to deal with it on her own, or find out about and try to deal with it together.
Quote: Of course this is true, but finding that balance where you're patient but not complacent is difficult. I also think there has to be a time when you don't have to be so patient any more.
Yes, and I think one thing I have been pretty good at is figuring out when those times are in my sitch. So far, so good on that front. I hope I can continue to know where the balance point is and when it's time to tip in the other direction.
Quote: You know muddle, first of all, in the middle of all this, thank you for being here with me now. Your words are really helping me these days.
You're welcome. If I only can "make" you think, and thereby understand yourself and your sitch, half as much as you have done for me I will be quite proud of myself!
Quote: You know I felt weird about posting all that "I wanna be him" sounding crap because I KNEW it's not what I meant but I guess I was just trying to say that there are thing about ME that I WANT to bring out more that are probably similar qualities HE had that encouraged her to be who she liked being with him. I hate that I made it sound like I am using that a$$hole as some kind of role model or something.
Why not? I mean, sure, he made some stupid decisions that hurt you, but he's a person like any other and has some of the same traits and characteristics you do just in different proportions. Why shouldn't you use him as a role model? Stripping away all the negative feelings once directed at him liberates you. If you can see him as part of your W's history, like an old BF before you, you are truly free. If you can talk to her about her experiences with him, as if he were an old BF, you R will be closer to liberated.
Quote: She just wants to feel like a woman, a desired, admired, respected, loved, WOMAN and most of what I did in the past, ESPECIALLY since the kids have been born has not really fostered that feeling in her. Sure, I can't MAKE her feel something, but I can assure you that my behavior towards her over the years did nothing to help her feel like she wanted to feel and that's the sad part. It's not my fault per se but there are things I can change about me that WILL help, of this I am sure.
I can relate to this. I often look at my W and think or tell her how amazing and womanly she is, but until she feels this - and that will take her acting the way she expects a woman to act - my words mean nothing. So how does one set up a situation in which a female has no choice but to act like a woman?
Quote: I am still pounding her over the head with my "need" for sex.
So the question you seem to be pondering now looks to me like: do you stop needing, or just try and find a different way of telling her? Well, the need is always going to be there, and sublimation is not something you can really consciously choose to do. So, tact is the only answer. Maybe try a completely different medium. You've been verbally direct in the past, and now you've been trying physical affection. Maybe try writing notes - and nothing more. Stop all affection and don't speak a word that could even be perceived as an advance. What have you got to lose?
Quote: That is one of the reasons why I don't think it's as simple as her not trusting my sincerity. I think there is more to the barrier than that, and it's what I either have to wait out and hope she manages to deal with it on her own, or find out about and try to deal with it together.
I would work towards the latter. Maybe by putting yourself in a somewhat vulnerable position - taking a large emotional risk - will give your W incentive to open up a bit with you. Show her that you trust her - maybe she'll return the gesture.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, time out for this...I think it answers one of your questions about how we can "make" them feel like a woman, or at least how we communicate that WE see them that way. To me, this is something VERY different from simply complimenting them, etc. This was posted by COG to AmyC's thread. It REALLY hit home with me because of it's obvious simplicity and the fact that somehow I don't think I have ever done this, or at least not in recent memory.
Do you have the courage to tell [her] how you feel about [her]. What you like about [her], why [she's] the kind of [woman] you could spend the rest of your life with. Describe how it makes you feel when [she] is near you. It's time to dig deep and step out on that limb. Take some risk's, trust in God's grace, and go get your [W].
Quote: If you can talk to her about her experiences with him, as if he were an old BF, you R will be closer to liberated.
Ok, I agree with this. In time, I think we may be able to do this, but you know what, we don't even talk about old BF's and GF's in our relationship so...
Quote: I can relate to this. I often look at my W and think or tell her how amazing and womanly she is, but until she feels this - and that will take her acting the way she expects a woman to act - my words mean nothing. So how does one set up a situation in which a female has no choice but to act like a woman?
See my last post...
Quote: do you stop needing, or just try and find a different way of telling her? Well, the need is always going to be there, and sublimation is not something you can really consciously choose to do. So, tact is the only answer. Maybe try a completely different medium. You've been verbally direct in the past, and now you've been trying physical affection. Maybe try writing notes - and nothing more. Stop all affection and don't speak a word that could even be perceived as an advance. What have you got to lose?
Sorry to be obtuse, but as I have stated in my past threads, my W HATES when I write to her. Since I am a writer, she thinks it's all BS when I write since I can edit my words. She respects it MUCH more when I effectively communicate with her verbally.
THAT SAID, I do like your idea of the little notes. I went with that for a few days, and I DID drop all the other stuff, but I think I stopped too soon.
You know muddle, as much as you say I cannot sublimate my needs, I think since I have literally tried just about every approach known to THIS man, laying off, giving her space to WANT ME for a change and not chasing her so much might be the key. I have NOT tried that since things have gotten better. I know some women need to be pursued but you know what, I THINK W THOUGHT she was pursuing OM until she found out that he was after her money (which we don't have, lol, can't help that she drives a nice car) and really set her up. The point is that I think she LIKED the idea of WANTING HIM and having to DO something about it instead of knowing that affection/passion/romance was there, waiting for her around every corner (hint:that's what it's like with me). I could be wrong, but I think this is the only thing left try. After that, it's really all chalked up to time and maybe sticking with something long enough for it to work. In the end, I am trying to just get past this new first time, to a place where my NEWFOUND realizations of what our R was missing can take over and I can show her that I FINALLY DO GET IT and can BE the man who allows her to feel like a woman, in and out of the bedroom.
Quote: I would work towards the latter. Maybe by putting yourself in a somewhat vulnerable position - taking a large emotional risk - will give your W incentive to open up a bit with you. Show her that you trust her - maybe she'll return the gesture.
I agree and I will give this a lot more thought. I think most of what I am thinking (other than the idea to go "dark" on the intimacy attempts) leads to being much more open, but NOT more demanding. Just laying out there what I feel and trusting her with that. It's something that admittedly I have not done much of in the past 8 months...with good reason.
Your positive energy, patience and understanding are a true inspiration. Could use a little bit of that right now, as I feel so close to throwing in the towel, wondering why in the world I'm still in this....all the while feeling that I've never been so far removed.
Ugh....this is so hard sometimes when it hits you all at once.
