My suggestion is that one evening soon you should arrange for all the kids to be safely away from home. Then you should have as many drinks as possible to feel uninhibited yet still semi-cogent. Then you should tell MsHD everything you've been posting on this BB. I mean, geez, how could your situation get any worse. Your thread reminds me of why I think being absolutely opposed to divorce is a bad idea- if you can't have a divorce fantasy the only alternative fantasy is pretty grim.
"Tell me, what is it you plan to do with your one wild and precious life?" - Mary Oliver
You may very well bring the lurkers out in the open Hairy. But I would say that is because you are naturally witty and funny and that people like that. It makes people pull for you.
Also, shortly after I joined here, there was a thread going on where it started to get very flirtatious and you were the one who spoke up and said something to the effect that, "Aren't we here to try and save our marriages?"
I respected that and have followed your sitch since.
But man oh man... Is your wife a hard nut to crack.
BTW, what would be the difference in you stating to her, "you are going to have to have a physical relationship with me for a while before I feel comfortable doing x"
It really shouldn't be this hard. I know that is not what you want. Heck I am sure you just want a loving relationship with your wife where the physical aspect of a marriage is just a normal part of it. Something that both partners have an interest in doing.
I know I can't offer you any real advice from a success standpoint as I am two weeks away from final D.
But I can say that after I moved out, rather then getting any kind of reaction that would have showed me that my wife was going to do any kind of introspection, all she really showed me was how correct my move was. She is now "the woman scorned" and come hell or highwater, she is right in her absolute vision of what should have been.
Our SL had become so strained and her participation in it was such a chore, duty, pitty whatever... That I also had issues with the PE that you have described.
One thing I can say now with certainty is that it was due to my mental frame of mind. I have now, finally, experienced what it is like to be with someone who truly wants to be with me. What a difference!
I have kids as well, 19, 15 and 9. This was the toughest part. But for myself, I thought that as long as we both love them unconditionally, they are better off not having all the conflict in the house that had become their home life. And besides, I did not want them to learn that this was normal, I would rather have them know that it was not and what the consequences were.
Now I am not telling you to get a D. But maybe if you deep down accept that it is a very probable outcome eventually, then maybe you can start asserting yourself and your needs honestly and without malice and at the same time, don't worry about protecting her feelings.
For my kids, I wish we could have some how worked things out. For myself, I accept that there was no way we ever could have. There was too much power imbalance.
Paul: and here I thought your relative scarcity from the SSM board was because your situation had improved. Sorry to hear that is not the case. And hey, give your wife some breathing room, sheesh.
Mojo: I was thinking yesterday how I have all the detriments of being married, with few of the benefits...and how, my marriage is somewhat similar to being divorced, but without the benefits of that legal relationship.
Some of the marriage detriments: 1. monogamy, in that it precludes one from farking other people. The corresponding benefit, which I don't have, is the benefit of being with the one you love, physically and emotionally. 2. financial responsibility with little to show for it. 3. cooking and cleaning for your partner, but rarely getting to enjoy meals cooked by and/or cleaned up by your partner. 4. Being responsible for the parenting while your partner trains for her Breast Cancer Walk, which means that you'll be with the kids not only while she's at work, but after she gets home, when she changes into her walking shoes and goes out to walk for the next 1-3 hours. And not enjoying the corresponding ability to get away from the house for any reason other than doing errands, taking DD5 to lessons, etc. 5. Being responsible for all the yardwork, but not having time to actually enjoy it.
And, it's like being divorced in that I don't feel a kinship to my W, can't talk to her about much of anything because it sets her off, feel like every purchase I make is going to be scrutinized by an attorney (which it is), am constantly reminded of how certain property is hers and not mine, and get criticized for my parenting. And, of course, I don't get the one benefit of divorce - the ability to have other relationships...or, let's get real, the ability to fark anyone who'll have you. And let's not forget the other cool benefit of being divorced: the ability to tell your ex that most everything they used to control about you is no longer in their bailiwick.
Having been through one divorce, I can tell you that my "divorce fantasy" isn't attractive at all. Oh sure, I wouldn't have to put up with the incessant negativity, but I'd lose the daily contact with my DD5, my comfortable house, a lot of the $$, and I really don't want to put my older kids through another D.
And the part of the divorce fantasy that involves finding the nymphomaniac who owns a chain of liquor stores, well, even that is losing its appeal.
Don’t you know one of the methods to managing employees is to never give them too much praise, always set goals beyond reach, never let them be too comfortable, and basically keep them off balance? I don’t think that method is the most effective, but there are some managers who truly believe in it and some employees who truly need it! I’m not saying you need it, but I do think your wife believes in it.
Meanwhile, she's living the way she has for the last 5 years….. hmmm, sounds like she’s got a pretty good success rate. I doubt complaining about it is going to change anything. It will only tell her she needs to turn up the heat to get you back in line. I believe my wife thought along the same lines too.
I also still think your wife and mine have a lot of things in common, one of them being fear and insecurity. I think the LRS technique, mentioned in that animal trainer article Lil posted is a good approach for me. Whenever I have ignored my wife’s comments or demands in the past, she would just go on about her business. That doesn’t mean she would do anything I hoped for, but she would at least stop nagging. It is natural for her to shut down since withdrawing is one of her FOO self protection mechanisms. It seems the same factors could be at play in your sitch.
I also think your W needs affirmation and validation, which is why you two get along better after you’ve talked things over. She feels like she has been heard, acknowledged and therefore loved. Although my wife would really resist having these talks, she ALWAYS came away from them feeling better. It seemed she would approach them with a feeling of dread, of becoming engulfed and entangled in an argument with no end. I felt the same way too at times, but I also knew we were never that far apart and could work closer with better understanding.
I was surprised at the times I thought nothing was accomplished, that neither of us budged from our initial position, yet she seemed quite happy. It told me she needed to be validated. (Yet that is soooo hard when she then turns out her venom.) Perhaps this mindset will help you in dealing with your wife this weekend. But just remember, her feeling connected to you may not have anything to do with her making any changes in how she treats you.
Quote: And hey, give your wife some breathing room, sheesh.
HA! Right backatcha, bubba.
I read this board every day, and get a lot from it. For some reason, writing about my own sitch never seemed to help me or make me feel better, so I just don't do it much. Rest assured, though, I do find comfort and solace in the misery of you and others here....
I will note, however, that the last "pressure" exchange that I mentioned, led to a blow-up, and possibly some progress. She laid out some things she'd like me to do (very much like your wife's "I need you to feel comfortable with my saying no"), and a timeline, and I'm doing it. So.... time will tell if it's real progress or just another version of her favorite game, which goes like this: "If you will just not pressure me, and pretend you have no sex drive, and be patient for an indeterminate amount of time to be measured in either months or years, then possibly at some point our sex life will improve."
This is not my favorite game. It reminds me a bit of the game your wife likes to play, which is why I've always followed your threads closely.
"If you will just not pressure me, and pretend you have no sex drive, and be patient for an indeterminate amount of time to be measured in either months or years, then possibly at some point our sex life will improve."
This really is YOUR issue, but not how you think. It is something I mentioned before, and straight out of Schnarch…. your wife is avoiding the growth she needs to undertake to become comfortable with sex, intimacy, whatever it is you feel lacking. You have no choice but to wait for her to undertake this growth, to make whatever decision, to take whatever stand. So you keep asking her to decide (i.e., confront herself in order to grow and therefore have sex). She then deflects your request by turning the tables on you and complaining about the pressure she is under, as if that is what prevents her from self confrontation. But she is the one putting herself under this pressure by her avoidance. Not confronting herself is HER issue not yours.
The part that is YOUR responsibility is the fact that you buy into her deflection and allow her to maintain this excuse. You cannot force her to decide one way or the other, but your reluctance to make a choice because of her reluctance to grow allows her to maintain her position in this limbo state (read that again). If you set a course of action because of her procrastination, she will have to confront her decision – either move forward, confront herself and grow or accept your actions (whatever that may be).
The fact that you two are complaining about your wives is actually an attempt to deflect HER deflection. It is a game of hot potato. No one wants to make the hard choice, so both you and your wives remain stuck, blaming the other for whatever pressure you each feel.
The fact that you two are complaining about your wives is actually an attempt to deflect HER deflection. It is a game of hot potato. No one wants to make the hard choice, so both you and your wives remain stuck, blaming the other for whatever pressure you each feel.
Hmmmmmmmmmmmm, something about this rings true for me as well
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
For everyone who has read Schnarch, if this concept has not become clear and apparent to you, then you have not read the book with the intent of truly understanding what is going on. Go read it again. There is a lot more in there.
Quote: Are you the same paul who used to be mandksdad? Married to the Japanese flight attendant? Just trying to keep y'all organized in my head.
Nope, different Paul. A while back we all chimed in and there were three Pauls here, adding to the confusion. Maybe more. It must be a very unsexy name. That's what I get for using my actual name in my screen name, I guess.....
