I find your FOO story pretty interesting. You were a people-pleaser from the start without particularly overbearing parents? Is that right? My H is the same, a total wimp (I don't say that to be nasty he just is a conflict avoider and people pleaser). His parents are sweeties, no abuse whatever, never got smacked once, says he had a happy childhood. Sometimes I wonder whether it was the lack of ANY conflict in his childhood that makes him unable to handle it now, his mettle was never tested. My own FOO was quite different, there was a lot of conflict in our house (mostly verbal) although my parents did smack us but not often and never in an out of control kind of way (my Dad would occasionally lash out arbitrarily) but it was not the kind of abuse Chrome had. My parents rowed a lot. Lively debate was encouraged as a form of entertainment round the dinner table. The three of us are very close in age (3.5 years between three kids) and fought like a bag of puppies, as a result we are all assertive people, we know to speak up if we want something. H seems to assume some kindly person will notice he needs something and make sure he gets it. And if that doesn't happen it's because the world is a wicked wicked place full of unfeeling nasty people.
I also find it interesting that you say you are lazy about making decisions and are attracted to strong women because of that. That is pretty much my H too. I have to hand every decision to him on a plate not to get accused of being controlling. e.g. "what do you fancy having to eat tonight love?" "Oh I don't know, you decide" at this point I have to come up with something HE would like with no clues whatsoever (apart from 15 years experience of the man) otherwise I am selfish and controlling and always imposing my desires on him. It has taken me a long time to realise this. To understand that what he means by "I don't know" is "I like to appear nice so I'm letting you choose, but you have to reciprocate by choosing something you know I would like rather than choosing for yourself."
I don't know if this is how you are HD, but if you are truly lazy, or couldn't care less then please don't resent W for calling the shots. This laziness is handing her power, power I believe she is actually uncomfortable wielding, it is what is making her so anxious and therefore even more controlling - she is scared everything will slide into chaos.
She clearly was attracted by your humour and sassiness and being cheeky to her, when you got wimpy on her I think she probably felt a little short-changed.
Quote: what a bitch this wimp married
Her bitchiness is in exact proportion to your wimpiness HD, you make her a bitch as she makes you a wimp. Stop being a wimp and she will stop being a bitch. It's that simple.
The wimps in my life I have known find it difficult to be assertive without coming off aggressive, they have no fine control in that area and tend to oversteer wildly.
When you start to be assertive there will be resistance, there will be conflict. This is what you spend so much of your life trying to avoid so it unnerves you. Think tennis: You shoot one over the net - what is supposed to happen next? Duh - the other player knocks it right back at you! So you try and knock it back to them and so on to and fro until one of you scores a point - but it is a fair point. You do not throw your racket down and walk off in a sulk, you do not leap over the net and brain the other player with the racket. When you and she used to banter, she thought she'd found a decent tennis partner, I bet she was sore disappointed when you quietly walked away and said OK you win.
You have one HUGE thing in your favour, as has been said by so many on this board, and that is your sense of humour. Use it to lighten your touch when you are standing up for yourself and you won't come off aggressive.
Quote: As for farking her brains out, etc., I'm sorry to say but I think that's fantasy talk. Oh sure, I could give it a try, but I'm not into the whole rape fantasy thing,
It doesn't have to be rape HD, just assertive passion. If a woman seems to be turned off by you going to fast don't go fast but don't give up. Back pedal but don't roll all the way down the hill. Continue with passionate kissing, caressing less errogenous areas etc, but don't give up, press your point (as it were) keep going, get her warmed up, get the motor running.. then fark her brains out.
Quote: As for your suggestion of subsequently beginning to order her around because she'll be too high on the focking to argue, I guess I just don't see it happening.
LOL - Oh HD how little you know of womankind. I'm sure Cally, HP, Mojo etc would agree with me here. If you do a good job of farking her brains out she will be putty in your hands. You can shout "beer me, wench" and she will gladly do so without even seeing the irony
Happy 4th July (through gritted teeth)
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
Quote: Poster: hairdog Subject: Re: An invitation to be slaughtered? Oh, joy!
Lately (like, since mid-May) I haven't bothered to try initiating anything with my W. My reasons: 1. She's made it clear with her actions, and somewhat clear with her words, that she's not interested in sex, so why would I want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me? 2. If I wanted to feel bad about myself, I can pretty much do that just by sitting around and thinking bad thoughts about myself. I certainly don't need to go through the laborious actions of making myself vulnerable, reaching out to touch my W, actually touching her (in a non-erogenous zone) and, if in the unlikely event that my hand doesn't get pushed away in less than 5 seconds, moving toward an erogenous zone, only to get the smackdown. That's just too much effort to go through in order to have the following feelings: a)why did I marry this asexual person?, b)why did I adopt a child with this asexual person?, and c) why do I even bother trying to touch this asexual person? 3. If I'm in the mood for sex, it's a lot more enjoyable to be by myself, imagining the act with a woman who actually responds positively, than to tiptoe across the minefield of our sexlife.
Aside from occasional hugs and goodbye kisses, I have truly embraced my W's stated preference for "no pressure." Truth be told, I feel very little sexual attraction toward her anymore, so it's relatively easy to restrain myself from the kind of behavior she would see as "pressure."
As you can imagine, this type of relationship with her doesn't stimulate my muse. In other words, my communication with her ranges from the mundane to the bare-essential. I share my parental observations of our DD5 with her, my plans for dinner, my yardwork to-dos, etc. Occasionally, she might engage me in some topical news discussion, or some talk about her step-father's health, but it's pretty basic.
Imagine my surprise, then, when she woke me up upon her entry to the bedroom with a comment like, "you know, if you want to have sex with me, you are going to have to initiate." I don't recall the exact words, but that was because I had been asleep. (I've decided that going to bed by 10pm is more important to me than keeping her company while she watches television until 11.) I didn't respond.
The next day (last Sunday) she again mentioned that I was the one who needed to initiate, and that I should approach her "with confidence." Instead, I kept myself busy all day in the yard, cooked dinner for us, and then went to bed early.
Monday morning she said she wanted to talk, asked me why I was not approaching her physically, and I told her, well, basically number one, above, that I had the distinct impression that she did not want to have sex, and so, why would I have sex with her? I recounted the conversation we had in March, after the episode of "Coupling" where she focused on my PE problems, and the encounter during our vacation where I tried to help her "O" manually, and she told me that she could do that herself, that she didn't need me for that, and that she was basically only having sex for me.
She denied the essences of those conversations, said I was totally mistaken, that she enjoyed sex, that she was turned-on by me, that (Hairdog's eyes and ears glazed over here, as often happens when confronted with a make-believe world that has absolutely no connection with reality).
But, ignoring the warning bells, I decided that, last night, I'd do a recon of the no-fly zone. Try to touch . . . hand on calf for nearly 7 seconds before she repositioned herself. Hmmm....maybe that was a fluke....hand on shoulder....oops, only five seconds before repositioning. How about a spontaneous kiss? Hmmmm, reminds me of the time I practiced kissing my mom's styrofoam wig-stand.
Nope, no change here. The words do not have any relationship to her actions. Back to the relative safety of the no-pressure zone. There, at least, we don't have the subject of my animal urges to argue about.
And the whole "approach with confidence" comment just makes me laugh (in a bitter way). I am confident in every area of my life which is relatively untouched by her: my work, my inner creativity, my sense of humor with my friends...it is only in my dealings with her that my confidence is gone. It's not just in the sexual arena. From deciding whether we should keep or cancel the newspaper ($6 a month) to how to clean the floor, to what I want to do on Father's Day, almost every decision, communication, action, in her presence, lacks confidence. No wonder she doesn't want to have sex with me (contrary to her words), I can hardly look at myself in the mirror when I'm at home.
I am angry at myself for letting this happen, for being at the point now where I care so little about my marriage that I see her as little more than a co-parent, a co-habitor of space, and a co-spender of income. Yet, most of the time, the anger stays hidden. Every once in a while it bursts forth, usually as a result from something that could be characterized as a minor irritation. And yes, I'm angry with her, too. Her incessant criticism has helped erode my confidence.
Understand, I'm basically just venting here; sharing the story of Ms.Hdog practically begging me to initiate, responding coldly when I do, same ol' same ol'. I don't need the pep talk from blackfoot or stigmata about being the alpha male. I've heard it before and it doesn't work for me.
I'm not preparing to exit the M. I'm just enduring. I'm being the best father I can be to my kids, being a helpful man about the house, and, oh yeah: refusing to give my W the power over me that comes from some sort of sick satisfaction she must get from rejecting me.
Funny, but I look at HappyGiant's letter to his wife and instead of getting tangled up in the analysis of his motivations or the legality of it all, all I can think is, "wow...I bet it took a lot of energy to come up with that plan and put it down on paper. Meanwhile, I don't even care enough to threaten to not do the dishes after I've cooked dinner. Too much wasted effort...too much conflict."
I have an appointment with my IC at 2:30 today. I'll probably talk to him about some of this.
Hairdog
Hairdog,
Sorry for coming to this discussion late. I haven't been on the Board much lately, due to some combination of work and not wanting to face the ineffectiveness and hopelessness of it all.
Anyway, I just wanted to say that -- other than the wife's comments about "you know, you're going to have to initiate" (and even then, I think my wife THINKS this, but just doesn't vocalize it -- I could have written this post myself. I mean, word-for-word.
You are EXACTLY where I am. I keep wanting to add some sentences here describing how I feel, but your original post on this thread says it PRECISELY.
Quote: Here is my take on what your wife is saying to you.... she is like most wives or significant others, in the end she wants to be desired and loved by you, even if she doesn't have the sexual desire for you her recent comments about wanting you to initiate confidently simply mean she wants you to keep on, keeping on, even if she rejects you and doesn't feel like it, simply because most women in the end want to feel loved and desired.
She wants me to find her desireable, and to WANT to have sex with her. She just doesn't want to actually have SEX WITH ME be a part of that equation.
How are guys like HD supposed to respond to:
-- a woman who wants to be desired, but doesn't want to have to do anything about it?
-- a woman who wants you to be confident, but then does everything she can to kill your confidence?
-- wants you to "initiate with confidence," but then tells you repeatedly that she finds such male traits and behaviors to be abhorrent?
Man, they say WOMEN are confused? Men don't know WHAT you want from us.
Quote: they say WOMEN are confused? Men don't know WHAT you want from us
Hey, choc! We're not all like that! Please retract the generalization.
And speaking of confusing... what about a guy who sleeps spooned with me every night (both of us nekkid) and NEVER touches my breasts? If I place his hand on a breast, he will leave it there unmoving and fall asleep. Yeah, confusing... but I know all guys aren't like that.
The behaviors you're encountering in your W and some of us women are encountering in our men are NOT typical (dare I say "normal"?)
OK, Lillie -- I'LL say it then: THEY AIN'T NORMAL!
I mean, if someone wants to be totally asexual, that I can almost understand. But then why spoon with you, naked? Why would HD's wife want him to be assertive, only to push him away? Why would my wife want me to consider her "sexy", and wear sexy clothes, but not want to actually have sex with me?
Well, it feels good-- the way it feels good to have warm bodily contact with anyone, even your dog, or a baby or something. Sadly, my bf has turned naked spooning into a non-sexual activity for me. When we do it, I like it, it feels good and cuddly, but I have no inclination to do any more. Even when I feel a bit of an E (and usually there's no more than that), I have NO inclination to carry the activity any further. If he would show ANY desire at ALL-- even a little bit, I know it would light my pilot light. He never shows desire... he's affectionate, but never sexual. I know... I sound like CeMar.
"Why ask why?" The same reason people climb Mt. Everest... because they're stupid, have time on their hands, and love to suffer?... no no no-- that's not right... oh yeah: because it's THERE.
Re fran The wimps in my life I have known find it difficult to be assertive without coming off aggressive, they have no fine control in that area and tend to over-steer wildly. That is a good topic for further discussion,
This laziness is handing her power, power I believe she is actually uncomfortable wielding, it is what is making her so anxious and therefore even more controlling - she is scared everything will slide into chaos. Fran, HD. This is almost what the "Dog Whisper" has to say about dogs that don't see a pack leader so they become the pack leader only to be come unbalanced and screw up the works.
I really like the idea of fine control and how to avoid over-steering.
Happy 4th July (through gritted teeth) England couldn't handle us so we followed our own pack leader.
I have read some of your history and your country did the same thing.
In those leading conflictive situations, I've always been a fan of the "mu" response. But you know that. Longevity. It is the fertilizer of friendship.
Anyway.
Mrs. HD: "This floor isn't clean enough!!"
HD: "Mu."
Mrs. HD: "Mu? MU?! What the hell does that mean? So now you are a cow?!"
HD: "Oh, I don't know...(chewing his bubble gum, blowing a bubble) You're the buddhist in the family. You figure it out. Meanwhile, I'm going to grab my rake and move some stones around in our sand garden. Care to join me? May be a bottle of wine and a pickle tickle in there for you if you figure out the 'mu' thing."
I know. I would piss her off.....
Well. As my shrink always said... "it's better to be pissed off than pissed on...."
Hey Choc...I've missed your commiserations, brother. I wish I could figure out the road to success for both of us, but I didn't find it last weekend.
Fran...when I try to be assertive (without being aggressive) now, I just get accused of being a control freak, or not caring what she thinks, etc. Then, even when I explain that I'm trying to be the "confident man" she desires, she'll then say that what I should have done was x, or what I should have said was y. Often, I can tell little difference between what I did and what she suggests I should have done. And what's the value of being confident, if you're just reciting or reenacting what your spouse says you should?
Anyway... I didn't come here for advice this morning, just came to thank you and everyone else for the advice in my absence. It was a tough weekend and holiday: stepfather-in-law still has no primary cancer diagnosis and no symptoms (so it's like he's got a time bomb inside him); aging dog just developed an infection after her surgery for the removal of bladder stones; and all the rest of the stuff called "life" that needs to be handled.
No time for a lot of detail, just "hi" and I'll pop-in a bit later.
