Cally: I appreciate your post. Your situation sound(ed) similar to mine, but I think you and my W are two very different people. I don't think she'd react similarly in the type of bedroom setting you mentioned.
But hey, what's the worse that could happen? (this has been a recurring slogan in my life...it helps me get past the inertia sometimes) She says "no", I push it harder, she says "NO" and then, maybe we can talk honestly about WTF she means by initiating confidently.
Re HD I guess the unfortunate thing is that, I have been playing the detachment game for so long that, I just don't have a lot of interest in her right now. Doing something similar here HD.
I'm not likely to put my neck on the block and hand her the axe. I agree. The part of handing her the cards is putting your neck on the chopping block, but if you don't let her words feel like an attack, I would say that she then would be somewhat axe-less.
To be honest, I do find it difficult to determine what is healthy (for the R and for me)detachment. I am always concerned about doing damage to the R. So in a sense I am a novice too when it comes to determining what is good for me, good for the R, and good for BB. I see you doing the samething similar sometimes.
Where is that Rabbi Shmuley Boteach when you need him?
My W and I have been watching the good Rabbi recently. He sure can cut to the chase, can't he? The parents can think that the problem is x (where x equals the kid and her ADD, or where x equals the nagging mom), but Shmuley looks at it, and says, "uh, no, the real problem is y (where y equals the control-freak dad, or the emotionless non-caring dad).
Re Cally There was something I was very guilty of in my marriage. And it is something I have really worked on. It is that I was way to controlling and critical. My husband finally got sick of it and took his control back. He did things like others have suggested you do. Like if I wasn't happy with the way the floor got done he told me do it myself. He didn't care what the outcome was of his getting his masculinity back. For a long time with many things he just didn't want a conflict so would go with the flow like you. But let me tell ya he really built up resentment and so much anger. Now let me also tell you back then I didn't respect him. I guess maybe the more I controlled, deep down, the more respect I was losing so it was a vicious cycle. That sounds like my house. Wow, it's good to see someone who understands some of the issues instead of blaming the OP.
I think his LD was a result of something he could control and a way to hurt me as I was hurting him. It could have been payback. But maybe it was just giving up, getting tired of fighting an up-hill battle. At least that is what it is for me.
You try to be silent because you just don't want the conflict. This sounds really true Cally. FWIW for Cally.
Hey Hairdog, this post pulled me out of lurker status. I have been reading these boards even before you signed on.
Here is my take on what your wife is saying to you.... she is like most wives or significant others, in the end she wants to be desired and loved by you, even if she doesn't have the sexual desire for you her recent comments about wanting you to initiate confidently simply mean she wants you to keep on, keeping on, even if she rejects you and doesn't feel like it, simply because most women in the end want to feel loved and desired.
So, I sense that she sees that you have backed off in this area and wants to get you back in the game, as to what to do next I am baffled as the rest of the gang here.
I think I have a slightly different spin on this to the others who have posted. I think it is possible your W has NPD or BPD. This is why she manages to "forget" her ball yanking antics. Telling you to initiate if you want sex is clear blame-shifting (a very NPD trait). She unconsciously knows she has [censored] you over and you don't want sex because she has batted you away every time you try it. So she knows that if she wants sex she will have to initiate. Telling YOU to initiate is her way of initiating. Her fault is your fault, this is what I mean by blame shifting, my mum used to do it all the time to my dad mostly but to us as well.
A while back I posted to you about Mrs HD being like an out of control toddler. Her overly controlling personality is searching desperately for boundaries and for control by you. You are not giving her that and she gets worse. It is anxiety, she is riddled with it (hence the tight pussy you mentioned). Her demanding that you take her with confidence is another clue pointing this way. She really really wants you to step up and be the man. Probably more so now she is losing her step-dad.
Frankly I think you should fock her brains out, several times over if necessary. It will help to exorcise the anger you feel towards her, then when you have reduced her to a helpless jelly after several nights of this, starting ordering HER around for a change. She will most likely be far too high on all the focking to argue. She will be happy to feel like she is in a safe pair of hands, like she is with a man who knows what he is doing and knows how to steer the ship. It will bring her relief and comfort to know that she doesn't have to be in charge.
I am not saying all women are like this, BTW for the lurkers out there. Mrs HD is a specific case and I believe (IMHO) that this is what would work for her.
On the radical honesty question, here is a clue, I can't really think of a better analogy but say someone came up to you in a store and started asking where you keep the widgets. You don't work in the store but it's clear this person thinks you do.
Do you say a) I think they're on aisle 3 b) How the fock should I know? Do I look like I'm wearing a uniform? c) I'm sorry I don't work here, maybe they have a customer services desk at the front of the store.
In our M's I think most of us give answer a) because our SOs seem to expect that of us, and occasionally when we get really hacked off we give answer b). So why the heck don't we just give answer c)? I think it is because we are so eager to meet expectations and don't want to disappoint that we end up saying a)
After a while in a marriage the partner asking the question gets confused that you keep sending them off to the wrong aisle where they won't find what they want, and even more confused when you suddenly bite their head off.
I don't know if this helps, I feel like you're probably scratching your head and muttering WTF?
Fran
if we can be sufficient to ourselves, we need fear no entangling webs Erica Jong
I think the NPD, is a very boderline concept. In HD's case I dont want him to see this and develop a feeling of hopelessness. So many times we see selfish behavior occuring simply because the OP allows it.
I encounter apparently NPtype females quite often, and they stop acting like that PDQ, given the right environment. My experieces, tells me what Cally has tried to relate to HD. This struggle is about HD, and how he relates to women, internally. If he changes so will she.
HD, you said I nailed how you feel with each one of my comment ideas.
But you have never expressed these things to your W, these honest feelings. Why?
You just want to be 'nice' right. just want her to be nice back. Im sorry brother, but thats not how this M/F dance works. In reality you are not being honest. You are not being congruent with how you feel. This causes her to lose respect for you. long Suffering silence is not attractive.
Why does she have to poke you like this? Why cant she just say, wow thanks, I really appreciate you cleaning the floor, and picking up the groceries, etc etc.
Ive tried to explain it before, but does it really matter? She cant help it. UNTILL you stop letting her. Then she will stop. Gladly to. and with appreciation that you did it, after a short struggle. Wow. that gives you a lot of power. Do you want it? Can you handle it? Did you notice Callys husband did basically what I said to you about the floor cleaning?
For example, your story about fixing the house fan. You included and made your daughter a part of the team. I read that and I kept thinking...ok... where is the part where he hollers at his W to make them some lemonade? Do this with your wife. Tell her to do things, and also start requiring appreciation for the things you do.
ex. she b!tches about the way you are doing ..fillintheblank.... HD: "you know. it wont kill you to say thanks and give me a hug." thats it. nothing more. convo done.
If she wont, have her do it herself. Is that a scary thought? The reaason I worded my reply the way I did instead of the way callys H did, (which works too) is because it turns the situation back, and lets her know what she is not doing for you. She will hear it and she will think about it. a lot, and then she will test again to see if you were serious. if you are, and stand firm, things will change. if you cowtow, youll stay in the status quo. (actually things will just keep degenerating.) Your giving her choices, placing value on what you just did. and not personalizing, like saying FINE DO IT YOURSELF, comes across as. thats Frustration. Letting her get you out of your calm peaceful state. She has just given you what she wants. emotion. so give it to her, dont let her get you out of the place you want to be in. Calmness.
There are times when I think it is ok to let frustration/anger come out-- controlled. that spark of displeasure. 1) its an eye opener. a definite 180. 2) it sure feels good to relieve that resentment and tension.
As for talking to her about what specifically a confidant approach is. I doubt she can verbalize it. If she was that self aware, she probably wouldnt be acting like she does. She would be choosing to build up HD self esteem thru various ways, not 'testing' and thereby tearing his self esteem down. Not poking at the one thing, she is 50% responsible for.
HD. you can do it. Cobra is doing it. Chrome is getting there. Fran and cally are telling you pretty much what Nops said in his last post to you.
Unfortunately, and here is where the enmeshment aspect pops up, I don't think she's really ready for it. Of course, I don't know if she'll ever be ready for it, until she's ready to look at herself with honesty.
LOL. she doesnt have to be ready for your honesty. ITS HONESTY. Truth is truth. Lack of truth causes the problem. Incongruence causes the problem. I know, in the legal system, truth is often annoying, to the abilty to be on the winning side. but not here.
you dont know if she can handle your honesty? a divorce lawyer? LMAO. hahahahahah. Poor Mrs.HD. HAHAHAHAHA!! <whew. your killing me.> Thats your fear speaking. Not only are you coddling her, which is hilarious, but you are demeaning her by saying she cant handle it, and not giving her the benefit of the doubt.
I know you have the skill to do this, and your fear keeps rationalizing away what we are telling you. stomp on your fear and try something 'crazy'.
Your W is not some super-special freak of nature, sent to torment just you, that wont respond to the the same behaviors, that all other women do. she started following your lead once before. I remember it. she may deny. she may redirect. Thats all her fear speaking. Ignore and plow.
When anyone ever mentions to you about turning things around or standing up to her you seem to have an excuse as to why you can't. Or will say you don't think that will work. To me like blackfoot said....it is fear. You are or have become scared of your wife. But now try to think of it from a females point of view and see this scared man standing before you and you are the bully time and time again. You put out your demand or nasty comment and he does nicely what is told of him. How much respect do you think she could have for you. But then now throw the ED and the PE and she is yet losing more respect. I honestly feel the sexual problems you have had is not you. Well, it is mental but not physical at all. Interestingly enough my husband also had these same exact problems. Now the man today doesn't have those problems anymore. He feels better about himself as a man. He feels better about me now that I have let him be the man he needs to be. I guess that kind of sounded wrong like I let him like he is a kid. I just mean I backed off. I came the realization that the things he finally said to me had really valid points. You know what on the sexual front to me he also gave me brutal honesty that he just didn;t feel that way towards me anymore. Another eye opener for me. And maybe one your wife needs to hear.
I agree stop coddling her. That was a perfect opportunity to tell her that night exactly how you feel and that is that you don't feel sexual towards her anymore. Let her finally know what your true feelings are. Otherwise you also will just keep going in this vicious cycle.
Then think about this in this current state you are living in have you lost respect for yourself? Then think about how much respect do you think she has for you when you don't even respect yourself? Take back what you need HD! It is time and she needs to hear what you feel!
Wow, Patsi, thanks for peeking out of the bushes. You HAVE been here a long time. (BTW, I saw that you posted about PT-141, and that you had signed your hubby up. Hear anything on that?)
I agree that Ms.Hdog is feeling a bit threatened. I, too, wish I knew the "right" thing to do next. Keep tuned in...and don't be such a lurker.
Fran: thanks for your post. I seem to have a knack for picking NPs. My C once asked me, "why do you choose 'blaming women'?" I'm still working on the answer to that, but part of it, of course, is that, at least during the course of marriage #1, I began to feel kind of comfortable in the scapegoat position. I was not the scapegoat in my FOO, btw...I was the good little kid who watched all my siblings make the mistakes while I did all the things that made my dad happy.
As for farking her brains out, etc., I'm sorry to say but I think that's fantasy talk. Oh sure, I could give it a try, but I'm not into the whole rape fantasy thing, and that is what I think it would quickly turn into. Read back in my posts and you will see that one of her mantras is, "I want you to be comfortable with me saying 'no' to you." (Kudos to Mojo who came up with my favorite--but as yet unused--comeback to that: "Comfortable? Comfortable with you saying 'no'? Baby, I'm way beyond comfortable...I'm downright bored with it.") So, my prediction is that she would say, "no", I would push past the "no" and subsequent "no's", and then would forever be branded as "rapist." This prediction, by the way, is based on experiences when I did indeed push past the first "no" and got a much firmer "no" and was lectured to for days about being "comfortable" with her "no."
Being sexually aggressive (in the rough sex sense) is something I have only been able to do in situations where the recipient is very obviously "into it." The girlfriend I had before W would like this occasionally, and I felt so comfortable with her that I would happily participate.
I don't feel comfortable with W. I have never been sexually aggressive with her, except for some tentative forays very early in the relationship that indicated to me that such behavior was not necessary or welcome. That's fine with me, by the way, as I truly enjoy the rockin' and rollin' type of sex, anyway.
As for your suggestion of subsequently beginning to order her around because she'll be too high on the focking to argue, I guess I just don't see it happening.
Maybe you know her better than I do. Maybe I'm just at the point where my give-a-damn is so busted that I don't feel like putting forth the effort.
I appreciated the "radical honesty" explanation. Choice (a) is so very "me." You're right...I need to just say, "I don't know. You want some help finding out?"
I honestly feel the sexual problems you have had is not you. Well, it is mental but not physical at all. Interestingly enough my husband also had these same exact problems. Now the man today doesn't have those problems anymore. He feels better about himself as a man. He feels better about me now that I have let him be the man he needs to be. I guess that kind of sounded wrong