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hairdog wrote
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So, this "radical honesty" stuff, how does one go about faking it?


God, I love this man.

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Hairball,
I think you may be confusing honesty with the sort of brutality that your wife engages in, all in the name of laying your cards on the table.

Being honest means telling her the truth about your feelings. You can do it in a hateful way, but that is just more enmeshment, isn't it. Being honest while being loving is realllllllly hard but so darn worth it.
It is difficult to tell when your wife is really wanting to talk, to discuss and work towards marital happiness and when she merely wants to get her own way. (ie, have your sexual desire available to pump up her flagging self esteem, but not actually be required to DO anything about said attention)
Given that, why don't you ask her? "What is your intention of saying this? Do you want to talk about how we can work together to solve our issues?"
This communicates, once again, that this is a couple's issue and not Something That Hairy is Fcuking Up Yet Again.

Also, I can see that you are confused and rightfully so. Your new radical honesty policy will allow you to fight past your non-confrontational self and ask the following of her:
"Wife, you say that you need me to initiate in a confident, assertive way. Yet you have also told me, repeatedly, that men's sexual urges disgust and frighten you. I am completely unsure how to proceed. There is quite simply no way for me to be confident in your presence, given our history of repeated rejection. I can work towards confidence, but it is not something that you just switch on and off at will. Would you like to work towards a mutually satisfying sex life?"

IOW, you have a tendency to take on *everything* within this marriage. She makes these small statements, knowing that you will percolate on it long enough that you will eventually convince yourself that she's 100% right and what are you thinking, anyway. She knows this and capitalizes on it, over and over.

Recognize this in yourself and simply throw it back in her court before you have a chance to talk yourself out of what you know to be true.

xo

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Quote:

write out three times you would like to have sex with the Missus on three business cards and ask her to return one card within 24 hours.


"The missus"? Sheesh, Lou, I might as well call her "the ol' ball and chain." That aside, I like the creativity of the idea.

Hairdog

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Hey HP! I totally get what you're saying here. I was thinking about asking her this: "You say you want me to initiate in a confident way. I'm having trouble understanding what you mean. What, specifically, would a 'confident initiation' look like to you?"

I don't think she could give me a straight answer, but I suppose that's not the goal. The goal is to tell her that I'm tired of jumping through the moving hoops, and, instead of doing the jumping, I'm prepared to sit down and talk about why the hoops need to go away.

Gawd...I remember when sex used to be fun.

Hairdog

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I was thinking about asking her this: "You say you want me to initiate in a confident way. I'm having trouble understanding what you mean. What, specifically, would a 'confident initiation' look like to you?"

Better yet, HD, ask her to *show* you. Let her squirm with that. Don't help her. If she can't show you, ask her how the heck she can expect you to come up with something to suit her when even she herself can't?
And if she does come up with something, well my friend, that would be a win-win for you!!


"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."

- Nathaniel Hawthorne

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Lil: I made your sig line. My life is now complete.


Hairdog

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Re HD I might as well call her "the ol' ball and chain."
Hair, you are missing part of my plan.

If Ms HD tells you you have to initiate and you are at a point where your interest in her sexually is about nill, I am assuming you would not care what the outcome was. A Nothing from nothing game is still nothing thing. (if you can get there mentally)

If she tells you you are going about initiating wrong, admit this is the best you can do in your state of mind and her version of initiating is something that is difficult for you to get right in your mind so it comes across right to her.

Tell her you see/feel like the Peanuts cartoon football situation.

You might want to give her a 4th. card so she could put her own time on it.

I am just trying to get the ball in her court. She somewhat put the ball in your court, but you know it has strings attached to it. That is why you don't want to give it a kick. Let her know that.

Get her to commit to something rather than remain floating around like a fly that can change directions anytime it wants to.

Read HG's thread. I posted a Dobson article and Lil re-quoted an important part. Here is the mind set you might take:
All the techniques of containment must end immediately, including manipulative grief, anger, guilt and appeasement. Begging, pleading, crying, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat are equally destructive.

Not all the advice apply in your situation, but try to be more detached. (also applies to myself ) I think we both have problems in these areas> guilt and appeasement. <mild> Begging, hand-wringing and playing the role of the doormat/<fixer> <my additions to Dobson's text>

Not all of Dobson's articles (religious beliefs and stands) set right with me, but most of his ethics and practices are very good.

I guess I over did the religious thing and got burned so am shying away some of the religious or Bible quotes.

BTW I am in almost the same boat. Lately (like, since mid-May) I haven't bothered to try initiating anything with my W. My reasons:
1. She's made it clear with her actions, and somewhat clear with her words, that she's not interested in sex, so why would I want to have sex with someone who doesn't want to have sex with me?
I even asked BB why she would want to be around me last week.

Lou

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I like your idea, Heather. It's especially pertinent to me, as a resident of Missouri. You know ... the "Show Me" state.

Hairdog

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Lou, I read the Dobson article and agree that detachment works. Hey, that's basically what got her to say that she'll have sex, but that I have to initiate. I agree that letting her know that, just because the ball's in my court doesn't mean that I have to play, is important, too. I guess the unfortunate thing is that, I have been playing the detachment game for so long that, I just don't have a lot of interest in her right now. Oh sure, that could change, but without some show of interest on her part, I'm not likely to put my neck on the block and hand her the axe.

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HD,

It sounds to me like she is trying to communicate what she wants. It sounds like she wants a confident man to approach her. Instead when you made the attempt it was like a scared teenage approach. I can understand why you would be that way with all the rejection you have encountered. Have you ever done a very confident approach with her in the past?

There was something I was very guilty of in my marriage. And it is something I have really worked on. It is that I was way to controlling and critical. My husband finally got sick of it and took his control back. He did things like others have suggested you do. Like if I wasn't happy with the way the floor got done he told me do it myself. He didn't care what the outcome was of his getting his masculinity back. For a long time with many things he just didn't want a conflict so would go with the flow like you. But let me tell ya he really built up resentment and so much anger. Now let me also tell you back then I didn't respect him. I guess maybe the more I controlled, deep down, the more respect I was losing so it was a vicious cycle. The me now I love it he put me in my place. I was able to see where I was ta fault and work on it. The me today loves to say things like honey you decide where we eat tonight. Or get whatever movies you would like to rent. I respect him a whole lot more. It has changed the dynamics of our marriage so much. I think through this and I may be wrong and I don;t know if he will vere come out and admit it and he does still have a hard time just communicating. BUT I think his LD was a result of something he could control and a way to hurt me as I was hurting him. I have found lately that I am becoming the LD. Our marriage is improving in leaps and bounds. But I still find myself LD. I am not totally closed off to the idea of sex. I just find I don't think about it or need it as much. But an example of my husband having a confident approach was last weekend. He came home from work and it was late. I hopped in bed and was almost asleep when he came in shortly after I did. He started rubbing my legs and I kind of tried to turn away when he took me in his strong arms and said, " You are not going to fall asleep again this weekend. I want you." After that he laid this passionate kiss on me as he begun taking off my panties. Then he went for the neck area something he knows gets me going. There was just no refusing him. I found it so erotic and just plain awesome to see him like this.

I just hate this because I can see you are hurting and your ego is getting damaged. You try to be silent because you just don't want the conflict. You try the hardest you can to just have some sort of calmness to your marriage. She needs to break this cycle. You have to take your manhood back from her. Make her respect you by doing so. There may be a fire at first but after the smoke I think she will be able to see clear then. I know I did.

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