Here is my sitch--My H (45) of 24 years started an emotional affair in February. By the end of May he admitted in March it became a physical affair and he is in love. He does not think we are compatible and we should probably not stay married. We have 2 children ages 20 and 15. His OW is 8 years younger married with 3 children. Her husband does not want a divorce and wants to work on their marriage. H has started counseling 3 weeks ago. He says he will not do couples therapy but will work on himself to see if he can figure out what will make him happy. He is still in the house. I gave him my marriage boundaries and said I could not accept him contacting OW without me being present. Now I have found out the OW called his phone just his week and he also called her. I do not know if they spoke although I assume so. He is lieing to me and that hurts so much. He said he has not contacted her and their is not communication. do I just ignore this lying and wait to see what happens? I am working on my 180's. I just have such a hard time not knowing the truth. do I just wait to see what counseling will bring to him?
Sorry you're here. I'll try to keep this short and simple.
Your need to know the truth will not serve you well here. What will knowing the truth do for you? If you need to know because he may be crossing boundaries, i.e. not calling/receiving calls from OM, then you may as well just assume he is already doing that.
For most of us, myself included, this need to know is related to our need to control the situation. You cannot control this situation. You CAN, however, set and enforce boundaries, but if you are going to do that, you have to follow through.
You said you "gave him your marriage boundaries" but then you said he crossed that line, right? Now what? What was your stated reaction going to be when he crossed the line? Did you do that?
My point is that while boundaries are almost a necessity in our sitches, one that is pretty hard to set and enforce is the "no OP rule". If it were that easy then the affair would probably not still be going on. Also, I would assume that your H already knew that sleeping with another woman was a boundary of yours but now that he crossed that line, and you're still there, it's pretty hard to say "ok, you crossed the line 4 times already, but that 5th one, well, that's the last straw mister!"
As far as the lying goes, well, again, that's why the "no contact" boundary, at least at your stage of the sitch, is a really hard one to put in place. You CAN do it, but it's akin to the "me or her" ultimatum and as such, is not really advocated by DB.
DB suggests that we not focus on the affair. We don't snoop, or try to figure out our WAS. We simply turn our attention/energy towards ourselves and do work that WILL have a positive effect on our lives. I think if you give this some time, time spent on you and letting his C work, you may see some positive results. (BTW, are you seeing a therapist?)
Anyway, he WILL lie some more, count on that, but what you do not know, and I don't care how much you snoop, is what the lie really is. Is the lie simply that he's in contact with her, but your mind is filling in the rest, i.e. the PA is still in full effect? Or maybe is the lie that they are in contact but he's trying to break things off? Maybe the lie is that he's still in love with her but knows your marriage is more important and he's struggling with that fact. Then again, the lie could be that it's still a full blown PA.
Worrying about what he's doing, and what he MAY be lying about is not going to really do much for you. He may continue to lie once the A is breathing it's last breath, but in that case motivated more by a desire not to hurt you than getting away with something.
I am not trying to paint a optimistic picture for you, although there COULD be the chance that it is. What I am trying to tell you is that all you THINK you know is likely only part of the truth at best and no matter what, you're best served doing the ultimate 180 and just working on you, allowing him the time and space he may need to get his $hit together.
Thank you so much for your response. It all makes sense and yes, it is all very hard. Harder than I ever imagined. Yes, I am in therapy although I would LOVE to be in couple's therapy. I hope that will come at some point. The snooping is such an addiction that feels so justified. I just took a Salsa lesson today and feel like I am getting a better handle on GAL. that feels good. I will try and keep focused on that. thanks so much for your encouragement. That is really needed right now. I will probably need it again.
I'm sitting here reading for the first time. Waiting for my H to come home from work. Work. Yeah right. I am so overwhelmed!! Lying should be his first name. He claims he wants to work things out. Claims he has stopped seeing the OW but I don't trust him at all... Snooping is how I have discovered everything. For years he has denied. But I knew. I have confronted & asked and he has continued to lie and tell me that it is no one. Liar!! Anyway... so again after 16 years of marriage I'm sitting here trying to figure out what to do. He wants to see a therapist. Went to see a minister. He didn't like it. Now what? My kids mean everything to the both of us. Don't know if he's staying because of them or because of our marraige. He claims he doesn't want to leave. Can't trust him... He says he is not seeing OW anymore. If I had not busted him he would still be seeing her. He is such an idiot. I know everything. I am so sad...
I am so sorry you are here! I know just how you feel. You want to trust him, but he consistently shows you that he is able to lie or avoid the truth. My H just Friday told me again that he will "try not to ever call OW" apparetnly he is not good at trying. I saw on his office phone that his last number called was hers and she has called 2 times very recently. He is lying and does not seem to be bothered by it. This is such a form of disrespect to me. I just want and deserve the truth so I know what I am dealing with. Keep me posted on how you are doing. I do care.
Quote: I think you were right not to confront at night. I know whenever I say aynthing at night it escalates into something bad fast. I have to have the right timing.
Timing AND place are indeed very important. If you find that most of your arguments take place late at night and in the living room, then maybe it's best not to start a "talk" there and then. It's kinda like the old joke "Hey Doc, my arm hurts when I bend it this way...Well, said Doc, then don't bend your arm that way."
Quote: It is just another way he is showing me he disrespcts me. I have to get that. If he respected me, he would not be having an affair.
Wrong. He doesn't care what you think or say. It's not the same thing as disrespect. Saying it's disrespectful is akin to saying the affair is about you in some way, and sadly, it's not. Most of the time, whether they show it or now, the WAS's are not all that happy to be hurting you but they are very happy to finally be doing something that feels good to them. To use your drug use analogy, it's like saying that the person you love who is a drug addict doesn't respect you or else they'd quit the drugs.
I fully realize that you COULD look at it as a respect thing, and that's your choice, but DB steers us away from that line of thought because it's not accurate in most cases and it's counterproductive to DBing in general.
This affair is all about your H, period, and that's one of the hardest things for us to understand. We WANT them to be conflicted all the time about what they're doing to us. We WANT them to be in pain like we are.
Respect or lack thereof for you has very little to do with it. Now, respect for himself, and personal integrity is another story.
Quote: I have to get strong enough to let him know I am worthy of respect and if he cannot give that to me, than he will have to stay away until he thinks he can try.
That is your choice, as is making this all about respect. Whether either of those things works to bring him back is unknown at this point. Setting boundaries and enforcing them is always good I think, but sometimes we have to understand that certain boundaries are likely to push them away rather than help them grow closer. This one MAY do either, who knows. Right now, your H doesn't want to give anything to you so this boundary, this ultimatum may backfire if you are trying to get him back. If you need to do this for your own self-respect, then maybe it will work.
I find, starting with myself, and looking at many people here, that we put WAY too much value in their respect for us and use that as a substitute for our own respect for ourselves. When we feel their respect has been taken away, we feel no respect for ourselves, as if we "let" them disrespect us when the truth is that they are their own people and since we don't control them, we don't "let" them do anything, they make that choice on their own.
To me, there IS a fine line here but personally, I define that line like this, others may have a different line. IF my W said to me "I'm having affair and you can't do anything about it. I am going to f--k this guy in our bed and it would be nice if you were not here, but if you are, then fine, try to stay downstairs. Oh, and BTW, since you're still going to be around, please take my laundry to the cleaners, wash my car and have dinner ready for us at around 7:00 because our afternoon f--k should be done by then. Thanks' hon for being a good sport."
THAT would be disrespect. That kind of thing, blatent throwing it in my face, making SURE I know everything that's going on, and then expecting me to just sit there and take it is crossing the line. Maybe I'm arguing semantics to you, but my point is that MOST WAS don't do anything close to that. They sneak around, lie, try to fool us, etc, because on some level, they know what they're doing is wrong. On SOME level they may respect us but that doesn't translate into loving actions.
Last thing on this. I can respect my enemy in war but that doesn't mean I don't want to kill him. I think you're mistaking the word respect for love.
Quote: However, in the mean time, if he does not respect me, we will get no where. me being nice and doing everything is giving him no consequences at all for his behaviors. It is like having our teenager doing drugs and me sitting back trying to be nice to him while he figures out it is a bad thing. No, someone needs to step in and give some tough love.
Is that somewhere in DB or DR? I doubt it. Maybe it looks like we're just sitting back, enjoying the ride, but that's not the case. First of all, the drug using teenager is, well a teenager, not a grown man capable of making his own decisions. We are still responsible for the teenagers in our homes and therefore, as we often have to do with children under our care, we have to correct their behaviors, discipline them. Your H is not a child, and you are not his mother. You can't scold him into behaving as you want him to. He is making decisions that HE feels are right for him and I don't know how much impact "tough" love is going to have on him if he doesn't really care much about what you think. IF he was that concerned with your love, he would not likely be doing what he's doing. NOW, don't get me wrong, I'm not saying there is no hope, but if you make this into a power struggle, with your needs/desires on one end and his on the other, it's very possible that he'll choose his over yours and walk. Again, if you need to force that outcome, one way or another for your sake, then fine, but be prepared for the BOTH possibilities.
DB/DR does (I think, been awhile) talk about that. Ultimatums are usually bad because most of the time they're done to try to force the WAS back and the LBS is ill prepared to deal with it backfiring.
You ARE worthy of respect, but it has to start with SELF-respect and that has little to do with him or anyone else. It has to do with the confidence to make your own decisions and live with them.
As I ALWAYS say, too much really because it sounds like a cop-out or defensiveness, there are MANY ways to go about this, but DB/DR set forth a pretty unique approach that works well for some, and is damn near impossible for others. It is seen by some as a powerful set of ACTIONS to bring about personal and relationship change, and others as too passive and all about losing self-respect as the WAS walks all over you. It can be either depending on how you implement it, and how much you buy into the ideas you read about.
Grasshopper's message is right on. So, here's my addendum to his wise words: You need to decide if you want to work on saving your marriage, or if you want to be "right". If you focus on being "right" and making your H "wrong", you will for sure end up with a D. It is true, some of the things your H has done, including the A, and lying, are "wrong". But H is a big boy. Let him sort through that and find his values once again. Meanwhile, when you were a young newly-wed, what were your hopes and dreams? Who did you say you were going to be? Are you being the best you can be right now? Start with your focus on YOU. Move your work, your attention, to YOU. That is where the juice is in all this, and where possibilities and miracles can occur. The insight about who you have been being, will start the real promise of a new day. I promise
PositivelyListening ************************************** When one door of happiness closes, another one opens; but often we look so long at the closed door that we do not see the one which has been opened for us. - Helen Keller
thank you all for your comments. It is so incredibly hard to stay focused while in such pain. I have written goals that I would like for my perfect marriage and will next be breaking them down into small pieces to see what things would be happening if I was working towards these. Here is my question. do I share these with H? or do i just keep them to myself right now and work on my own without his knowledge? How do I know when to include him in my goals for our future? How do I do this without doing R talk?
Quote: It is so incredibly hard to stay focused while in such pain.
Indeed it is. Good for you for trying. We're here to help.
Quote: I have written goals that I would like for my perfect marriage and will next be breaking them down into small pieces to see what things would be happening if I was working towards these.
Ok, while that's good, and I think something that's advocated in the books, I think it's a little premature, as is any other deep thoughts about what may be in the future marriage you hope to have. Like PL said, focus on you right now and let the marriage stuff wait a bit.
Quote: Here is my question. do I share these with H? or do i just keep them to myself right now and work on my own without his knowledge?
One of the great truisms in these sitches is that for the most part, and in most cases, the WAS do not want a relationship with us anymore, or at least not a committed, monogamous marriage with us. They want to do what they are doing, free from the ties that bind. Does that mean they don't care anymore? No, it does not. Does that mean there's no hope for a renewed marriage in the future? No. What it does mean is that you pursuing this "perfect marriage" with him, or sharing your vision with him right now, likely will only serve to make him think that you are not listening to him. He's told you he's not really interested in your relationship right now. Sure, you can't believe much of anything he says, but that doesn't mean you can't use it to your advantage when you can. It doesn't mean you take him at his word so you can force yourself to do the hard, deeply personal work ahead.
What I mean by that is no, you don't talk to him about it. Your goals for the future CAN include what you HOPE he will do but at this point you have no control over that, so your goals for the immediate future should all be concerned with you, and things YOU want beyond the scope of this crisis, beyond the concern of your H.
He is on his path and now you have to set forth on yours. You have to learn how to walk without leaning on him. You have to learn to love a life that simply has him in it, but does not draw on him for inspiration. Inspiration has to now come from within.
Quote: How do I know when to include him in my goals for our future?
That's tough but I think it's fair to say, based on my personal experience and reading the experience of many others here, that you will just know. I would say that you include him in your goals for the future when he includes you in his. You ALWAYS know in the back of your mind and heart that you WANT him to be a part of your future but in so far as actually communicating that to him, I think you need not do that much more. He gets the picture by now. He KNOWS what you want. Now show him that you're going to take the road less traveled and look within to get it instead of outside yourself.
Quote: How do I do this without doing R talk?
You don't. You don't R talk at this point. There really is no R to talk about, and while that's sad, it's also the freeing thought that sets you in motion, ready to take ACTION to heal yourself in the absence of anything else to do. RIGHT NOW, there is really little else to do but work on your half of the equation and monitor his for changes.
Post often, read as much as you can, give yourself a break now and then and try to stay strong. Remember, YOU'RE in control of YOUR life.
let me hear this correctly. I should be working on getting my own life as full and fun as possible without intentionally including my H. doing things with friends, hobbies, interests, etc. Acting happy with these things.Ignoring the A. Not bringing up any relational talk. do I ever invite his along with on my journey? or do I wait to see if he asks to come along? it is so hard to have been a couple for 25 years and then think of everything as a single unit.
