In my one-on-one session with MC Thursday, C explained that H's love was there, just buried underneath all the other crap (my word!) that he's managed to pile on top. He does recognize that he loves me, but it's distorted because of the way he feels about himself. He also finds it very hard to believe that I can still love him after everything. I will admit (and I admitted this to him, also) that my feelings for him have changed. To say otherwise would be nonsense, and he knows it.
At our joint session on Friday, we talked about the statements H made a couple nights prior -- questioning staying married and whether he was truely committed to me and our R. H told MC that he doesn't know why he said those things except that he was feeling especially down and overwhelmed that night. He's tired of feeling the way he feels about himself; he's tired of hurting me. He wants peace.
MC asked him if he'd find peace in divorce. H stated unequivically, no, he would not. He stated that maybe I (Matilda) would find peace if I didn't have to deal with him anymore and, therefore, he (H) would feel less self-loathing. He also told MC he has not made much progress in forgiving himself. He just hopes it will go away with time.
That was our last MC session, at least for the time-being. MC stated he would like to call us in a couple of months to see how we're doing. H said that would be all right with him. MC really wanted H to continue in therapy. He (MC) had not really spent much time in dealing with H's problems. He wanted to get me on the way to healing first. But I think it is the best thing for H right now to just not talk about it at all with anyone. He been pretty much bombarded with it for a very long time now. He definately needs a break.
I was not comforted by H's retraction of his statements about staying married and being committed. I've come to realize that he tends to say things that are not true in order to either get him off the hook or to avoid hurting me. I mentioned this to H over the weekend. He stated that that was true. I told him I just want the truth from now on; that the truth hurts less in the long run.
I then asked him again about his committment to our marriage. He again said he wants things to work out for us and that he was just having a bad day when he said those things earlier in the week. (I wonder if it wasn't also an attempt to feel like he had some control over his life. He's stated before that he feels like I have all the power and control in what happens with us, so maybe he was attempting to take back some of the control.)
Lily, what you said about him now being able to really so some self-examination and that it's normal for him to question remaining married, I also think is right on. Sure explains a lot of things I've been questioning lately, i.e., why have things seemed to get worse for him while getting better for me since he dropped the bomb 9 months ago.
I know without a question (even though he might question it) that my H wants our M to survive. I think we're both in the process of finding out how to make that happen. I do not want to stay together just for the sake of staying together. I can't do that after all that's happened. I need to feel loved and cherished like I did in the past. I asked H if he thinks that can happen. He said, yes, but he needs time to work through the crap. So do I. I have my own crap to work through. I want to be able to love him again someday without resentment or anger. I still deal with those two emotions from time to time, but it is much less frequent.
As far as the physical intimacy goes, things are starting slowly to get back to normal. Unfortunately, H has been dealing with a lot of physical ramifications of his self-loathing and self-hatred. His chest pressure has turned into irregular heartbeats, which causes him some light-headedness and slight nausea. He is having a stress-echo today. He simply feels physically bad and it puts more stress on him. He's scared. I'm worried. He said something interesting over the weekend, however. Many times over the past 1-1/2 yrs (during A and post bomb) he wished he were dead; just couldn't take the torment anymore. Dealing with possible heart problems has made him realize just how much he likes living and how much he'd still like to do in this life before it's over!! I also feel that once his health issues are taken care of he will be able to better deal with healing himself emotionally.
Yes, Lily, I do love my H -- maybe not like I used to, but I do love him and I will work on nurturing that love to bring it back to its full potential. Oddly enough, sometimes I think the very fact that I do still love H and have reacted to all this is such totally opposite way than H thought I would actually makes him feel even worse about himself. He stated last week how much he misjudged me and my feelings for him. Apparently, in the past he felt that I wouldn't care if he had an A, because he felt I didn't care about him anymore. Well, if that is the way he felt, I must take responsiblity for it. And I do, because looking back I can understand why he'd feel that way.
He stuck with me for years apparently feeling unloved and lonely in our M. I am and will continue to do everything in my power to make that up to him. I just hope it's not too late (for both of us).
Please keep my H and his health problems in all of your prayers.
Matilda..I just looked back over the last few days posts.May I make some comments please..out sich's are similar.
My H had similar problems..low libido, guilt,depression.We were supposed to be reconciling and he told me OW was not on the scene.We were going to a MC that my H didn't like.
What did I learn from that?..it was the wrong MC.
As far as the low libido..I pressured, I gave him a hard time. What did I learn from that? I should have let him alone.
Then just like you I got the talk the ILY but not like before routine.8 months later we are still in the same house no sex etc.BUT I do believe my H has learned that I am willing to give him space.
My H like yours calls all the time. They are so dependant on us.I doubt that he really wants to leave..I bet he still loves you..he just doesn't know what to do w these feelings.
The guilt thing..I'd be willing to bet that that's what he THINKS he's feeling but that he is simply misinterpreting these feelings for depression.
As a person who has suffered a major depression and as someone who has been surrounded by people w depression. The worst thing we can do is to try to make them feel better.
You are smart to realise there is nothing you can do to make him feel better.
I love the chapter in DR about dealing w a spouse w depression. I would recommend a reread.
My advice to you is give him LOTS of space and lovingly watch and see what happens.
Be there for him...but frankly I don't see anything wrong in not answering the phone every once in a while.
The jealousy thing?I also see nothing wrong in letting him wonder just a bit..I personally feel that Hs like yours and mine need to get a little taste of what it would be like to lose us.I know I hate game playing too.I don't think you have to do that though.Just do things for yourself..let him do the things he wants to do.
Sleeping pills..I dunno..I hate to see you use them as a way of blocking the pain of rejection.I TRULY understand why you find them helpful though.
I find that calcium and magnesium are good natural sleep aids...also if you read sitting up in bed w a pretty nightie on well maybe....
On a more practical note. Is there anything you can do for yourself to make yourself feel really special. I recently went to a Spa and got thoroughly pampered..it was a boost.
Thanks, Duchess. I can really use all the insights regarding this sitch I can get at this point. I agree with the depression theory. I've felt all along H is depressed. I plan to ask him to speak to the doctor about it next week. I'll put it in the context of "it couldn't hurt to just tell him what the symptoms are," and see if he'll go for it. I think he will. He likes being able to say to me, "see, I'll try anything to make things better."
Actually, I think I'm letting the intimacy thing get way out of control in my own mind. H still initiates; still wants things to "happen" between us. He's just afraid that things might not go well and that makes him feel "worthless as a man." He's already is dealing with those feelings in regards to having hurt me so much; along with feeling like a failure in all aspects of life.
I've already decided to back off and let him take the lead. I told him I don't want to put any pressure on him, but for him to just remember that I do desire and want him. In the past he felt I had lost my desire for him and THAT made him feel worthless as a man. I can't keep up with the male ego!!
Also, I think the main thing right now is his worries about his health. At least he's being proactive there: getting a stress-echo today and seeing the doc next week.
Matilda if there is a way for you to suggest medication for him..heres's another thought.
All of the SSRIs(Paxil, Prozac, Zoloft etc)..decrease the ability for erecton..sometimes desire is lost also.
Wellbutrin has no sexual side efects.
I know what you mean about the sex thing getting way out of control in your head.
For those of us that heave been cheated on..it's an insult."Hey I am your W..you got it on w her why not me.."..That's what I did.
Way to make a man feel like he can perform huh??
Boy was I dumb.
It doesn't sound like you are doing that Matilda. good for you not making the same mistake I did.
This is a tough time for you..try and be as upbeat as you can..fake it till you make it..if you can't make it leave the house ..get a cup of coffee..go to the bookstore or buy yourself something nice.
Something else that needs to be said. You like me, took unresolved issues into your marriage (being abused as a child; me being emotionally abused).
Whether we knew it or not we expected our Hs to fill a needy hole.
My H can't deal w my needs right now; it's up to me.
Rememer when we first started posting and I was encouraging you to nurture the 'little Matilda?'
Ok. Here's the change in your love for your H.
You have to love him as an adult w no little Matilda lurking in the shadows checking to make sure that she won't be hurt again. Comprendes?
This love of yours is one that contains acceptance of your H for who he is. Little Matilda's would be conditional.
In a sense it is a 'new' love. Nurture it and watch it evolve.
Matilda, even after all the crap that Sage did to us, I find that I am in love w this man. I have saved my heart. What a lovely gift. I do not love him conditionally . I just love him. I am ready to move forward in my life and that just has to draw him. There's safety in this port in the storm.
I am not going to worry whether Sage loves me. He has emotional work to do that will exhaust him. I am going to be his friend, girlfriend, and lover. Me. Nobody else.
H used Wellbutrin several years ago when diagnosed with depression. He choose it specifically for the fact it had no sexual side effects!! Hopefully, he will be open to using it again. Even though he thinks he's not depressed, I would think the fact that he was prone to depression in the past would wake him up to the fact that he might be depressed now. However, he says he doesn't feel the same now as he did then. Well, yeah. The reasons for his depression then were different than they are now, hence, the feelings of depression manifest themselves in different ways.
I fear I have reacted somewhat the same as you in this situation. When his "problem" first started (actually, this has occurred very occasionally for the past 20 years, but usually just one time and then all was well again), I couldn't help but get upset, thinking it was because of his feelings for the OW. I let him know that that was what I was thinking, and how hurt I was. That really upset H and made him just that much more anxious the next time. Seems to have started a cycle that's hard to stop. I could really kick myself now, because it's so obvious that there were no residule feelings for OW. This has only been going on for the last couple of months. Before that, everything was great.
Anyway, I'm determined to relax and let things work themselves out naturally and in their own time. I did tell H over the weekend to remember how it made him feel when he felt I didn't desire him anymore, and then quadruple that in the light of the OW. He was chagrined. Said it wasn't that he didn't want me, but that he's afraid things are going to work right and he'll feel like a failure to both of us again. He says I can't imagine how frustrating it is for him. After all, things get started okay -- isn't it obvious he wants me (yes, dear. Nice erection!!) -- just doesn't seem to make it to the end. But, like I said above, that's starting to turn around again.
Lily,
Yes, I understand what you're saying. I think in the past I was loving him more as the "little Matilda," the child. I know for a fact that that love was conditional. I guess I have left that little girl behind and am now loving my H as an adult -- and, yes, it is unconditional. That is a huge surprise, not only for me but for my H. I think it's taking some time for that to sink in for him. I like thinking about it that way, though. Maybe I've finally grown up, along with my H.
I was thinking just last night that I've gone through some of the most horrible things in life that a child/woman can (suicide of my father, molestation, infidelity) and, incredibly, I don't feel sorry for myself. I just keeping on trucking, one foot in front of the other. I still have the capacity (and the will) to love. I have learned a great deal about myself in this process. I'm starting to really like who I am.
I'd reached a point on August 18 when I said that I'd lost my life. Sage heard me say this and he agreed w me. After the bomb when Sage said I seemed different I told him I was. I didn't like the me from before. The post bomb me wasn't intimidated by Sage because he seemed more approachable (wierd but true).
I not only like me now. I love me. I look forward to figuring out the things I really like to do because I suppressed myself in order to "get along" all my life.
I have figured out how to privately go inside and soothe little lily when she is hurting. I am going to 'grow her up' as well. I don't plan on taking that sweet little child into Sage and my future. I'm going to let her go just as I am letting our daughter go and our son one day too..
It's ok, too, if Sage doen't make it back to feeling 'love' for me. It's all good. To use a 'Titanic' cliche: "I will go on".
Just be so very patient w your H. He has to deal w his consequences. Don't be his mom. Be his Love.
That's exactly where I am right now. I feel so good when I realize that I will "go on" no matter what. I, too, lost myself for a long time. I think that made me very angry and it came out in ways I'd be ashamed to recite right now. I know I am hugely responsible for the state of my M at the time H met the OW. Even then he was not looking, not pursuing. She went after him. He was "open" to her advances. I think he still holds some anger towards me for that. He says no, he has forgiven me. He says he realizes now that things were not that bad with us and that they were actually turning around when he decided to take the step into infidelity. I think that is why he is having trouble forgiving himself.
I realized today that H rarely tells me he loves me without me saying it first. This was really bothering me. But when I think back over the years, it was never an issue. I knew he loved me. He didn't need to say it. I need to get back to that place. And, the thing is, when I do tell him ILY he returns the sentiment with such warmth and affection that I have to believe it's true. I can't get stuck in who says it first.
I also need to look at his actions more, as he is an action-oriented guy. His actions certainly say more about how he feels about me than any words could. He is a man of few words. He even reminded me the other day that when we were in high school I'd get mad at him for just sitting there and not saying much. I'd try to do something to provoke his anger in an attempt to get SOMETHING out of him.
So, what I'm getting at is that he really hasn't changed. I just get anxious because I THINK he should be doing things a certain way to PROVE his love to me after the A. He is proving his love in a lot of more subtle ways. I just need to be more open to recognizing them.
H just called. His stress-echo was normal. He does have some PVC's that are going crazy, but there's nothing that can be done about that. Everything else is normal. He's very relieved. Me, too.
What you said about Sage being more approachable after the bomb is exactly the same way I felt about my H.
Pre-bomb he was distancing. He was afraid of talking to me because of how he was feeling, and he was hoping the feelings would go away before he felt the need to tell me everything. He was also afraid that when he told me we would be finished. Everything that he did around the house, he felt might be the last time. Everything we did together (yes, including making love) he felt might be the last time. So he kept distancing, hoping he would never have to tell me. The guilt just wouldn't let him go. Personally, I think it was God that wouldn't let him go; made him face me and his demons.
After everything was out in the open and he wasn't distancing anymore, I told him it was nice to have my H back. H admitted to MC months ago that he thinks we're closer now than we've been in a long time. Not the way I would have chosen to have gotten closer, but that wasn't my call, obviously.
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