((((MATILDA))))!! Oh,how I wish there was something I could do or say that would ease your pain and help you!! You have done all you can until your H decides to forgive himself. You made the big step when you forgave him and told him you wanted to repair your R. Then you did start on the road to repairing but he got halted in his tracks by guilt and can't seem to get past that. You have done what you can to show him you you love him and you forgave him but it seems that since he is unable to forgive himself,he doesn't believe you should either. He is very confused and really needs help. Is he still going to C? Sure do hope he is. You have to be strong for you and your family and do what's best for you. I know how much you love your H and how badly you want your marriage to survive this. I feel in my heart that he really loves you but he is feeling so unlovable that he can't understand why you love him. All you can do now is love him and let him know that you are there for him. I will pray that he gets the help he needs and can finally forgive himself. I hope he knows if God can forgive him,how could you do any less! Stay strong and remember that I care about you so much and you are always in my thoughts and prayers!! Your Friend,pfroglady
I saw a report on t.v. last night about "male menopause," for lack of a better term. Low testosterone was the culprit. Seems my H has all the symptoms: decreased libido, fatigue (he used to go 100 mph, always had to be doing something. Now, kind of sits and vegetates), problems sleeping, and generally feeling emotionally down. These, however, are the same symptoms of depression -- which can also cause decreased libido, as can stress (H is under a great deal of stress both at home and at work). Stress can suppress testosterone!! H has a doctor's appt. in a couple of weeks. I'm going to ask him to have his levels checked. He has a problem discussing these things with me, let alone someone else. I hope by that time he will see the need and put aside his embarassment.
So, now I'm getting "can't live w/you; can't live w/out you." Can't live with me because of his humiliation and embarassment; can't live without me because he loves me (I suppose). How in the world does one get over the feelings my H has for himself. Seems like just being around me makes him feel bad.
We are still going to MC. We're supposed to go tomorrow. It might be the last time. I don't think he can help me anymore, and H is obviously not receiving any help from going. He seems to get really down before we go and it takes him a while to recover afterwards. I reminded him the other day of the appt and he got that "tone" in his voice of "oh,please, not again." I told him he didn't have to go if he didn't want to, but I think I'm going to tell him I'd like him to be there. If it is going to be our last session, I'd like to finish it together as we started the process together.
Unfortunately, I got a little emotional this morning while lying in bed with H before he got up for work. I tried tentatively to start something -- just touching him lightly. He responded by touching me back, but didn't "go for it." Couldn't help but get the waterworks going a little. This just isn't my H, folks. He always had a high sex drive - to the point of driving me nuts at times.
I asked him if he felt any desire for me at all. He said he did, and that's when I got the "can't live w/you, can't live w/out you" line. He also said he's afraid of not being able to finish, and that makes him shy away for intimacy. It's just too frustrating for him when things don't work right. He's afraid of what I'm thinking when that happens.
I must say when he told me the other night that he wasn't sure he wanted to be married to me anymore, and wasn't sure he was committed to me and OR it really threw me into a tailspin. I always assumed that if I was able to forgive him for his infidelity and was willing to work on OR that would be it. It's hard to imagine that HE can't get over what HE's done and our M may end because of that. That just seems insane to me.
Sounds like you have the same issues as I do wrt hormones. Spouse deems it personal. Doesn't want to discuss it, and doesn't want to believe it's causing problems.
It's hard to argue, though. They could be right.
I think he can get over it, Mattie. Things are waaaaaaaaaaaaay out of whack right now, and the further out of whack things get, the harder it is to get everything back on track.
It's the mind playing tricks on us. I just posted this quote over on sweet orange's thread, but I think it applies here too:
quote:Excerpt from DivorceBusting: Research shows that individuals preferentially remember those past events and experiences which are congruent with their current moods and attitudes. For example, when depressed people are asked to reminisce about their lives, what they recall are depressing events. When elated individuals are asked to reminisce about their lives, happy experiences are recalled.
The reconstruction of one’s past involves this kind of filtering process. If I think I don’t love my spouse anymore, I recall all those experiences consistent with that feeling and forget contradictory experiences. Our memories play nasty tricks on us.
This is very similar to the quote I posted here yesterday. In sex, desire follows stimulation. WRT feeling good about oneself, acting like you're worthwhile will promote feeling worthwhile.
When things are good in the present, it sows the seeds for the future. The present becomes the past, and when you reconstruct your past with a perponderance of good memories, things are just fine!
So how do I get that across to my H? I've tried to explain this all to him. Discussed him thinking good thoughts about himself will promote good feelings about himself. He says it doesn't work for him. When he tells himself he is a good person, good husband, good father, etc., he just simply doesn't believe it!
And it doesn't seem to matter to him that I've told him that I think he's basically a good person who just got lost for a while. I told him that if that "bad guy" were really who he was, he wouldn't be feeling so wretched about himself. That is not the real him. The real him is the man who wishes he had never done what he's done; the man who wants desparately to make things better; the man who is in pain because he hurt me and himself so much; the man who I know will never do anything like that again.
The other night he mentioned that I've said things to him that make him feel really good about himself, but then he starts wondering if I just say those things because I think he needs to hear them in order to stay faithful to me!! WTF!! Geez, talk about over-analyzing. He even admitted he's probably thinking too much about it. But basically what he was saying was he doesn't believe the good things I say about him because, afterall, there is nothing good about him, right?
What do you think, Andy, is he depressed? I think so. I mentioned it to him the other night. How can he not be? I also suggested he discuss this with the doctor at his appt. Told him I wasn't pressuring him to do so; didn't want him to think he could just take a pill and everything would be all right, but that I was concerned about him and hated to see him so miserable all the time. He thanked me for my concern. I don't remember if he said he would discuss it with the doctor or not. I will bring it up again, along with the testosterone test, just before his appt.
He’s definitely stuck. Depressed? If he isn’t, then he sure is working hard to get there.
If I were you, I’d go ahead and pressure him to discuss depression with his Dr. He really needs to get help, and I don’t think it would hurt for you to put your foot down.
quote:Originally posted by ANS onGoin’ with the Flow (Page 3): Greenbar’s comments about influence/control remind me of another incident that happened lately.
The other day, W told me flat-out that I will book an appointment with my doctor. I have a cyst that continues to grow, a sore hip that hinders my karate, and a smoker’s cough that’s gotten worse lately (I’ve been smoking a lot more than usual). I’m not particularly worried about any of these, but she was adamant.
Gist of it would be that I think your H is in some kind of depression.
Sage and I cannot talk about a certain part of our situation. We are rebuilding around that bump in our road.
I am hoping that you and your H will be able to find a way to take a break from the stress the two of you have been under for awhile .
I always say to stay away from the bitter so that you can enjoy the sweet. In my mind it took be putting an electric wire around the forbidden topic. It'd fry whatever sweetness is left. I am able to back off real good now.
Sometimes I just don't know what to think. One minute H is telling me he's not sure he wants to be married anymore unless his feelings of self-hate go away, and that he's not sure he's committed to OR anymore; but he calls me at least 5-6 times during the day, asks how my day is going, what's new, etc. Today he called to ask if I wanted to go see a movie tonight. Then later he called just to talk about a deal he can get for our satellite though his company. Last night we were making vacation plans. Is he nuts or am I, or maybe we're both nuts!
I'm going to see our MC in about an hour. I asked to come in and talk to him alone today. I want to discuss some of the things H has told me this week before our joint session tomorrow, try to get his take on it, and give him a heads up before tomorrow's session. I'm hoping that by talking to the MC today and filling him in, he'll have time to formulate the right questions to ask H to find out what is really going on with him.
I also told H that tomorrow would be the last session. H said, well, we'll see. I said, no, he's helped me all he can. I feel I can do the rest on my own. As for you (H) you don't seem to be getting much out of the sessions. H said that that was true. Too bad he's so damn stubborn.
Anyway, Lily, I think this might help ease his stress a little. He really so hates going to the MC. He just hates having to talk about this stuff in front of a virtual stranger. Must be a guy-thing. So I'm hoping he'll be a little more relaxed when it's over and we can stop talking about it even once a week.
Last night I did a great job at giving him space and not making him feel smoothered -- did my usual things that I haven't done in a long time. He wanted to go for a bike ride (for exercise) -- I said great. I went upstairs and watch my soap that I tape during the day. He came back. We had coffee together. He rubbed my back, I rubbed his. Then I took my book and said I was going up to take my shower and read -- t.v. was too boring. He went up and played a video game with S, and when I mentioned how late it was getting, he handed controls over to S and told him to take over.
By the time H came to bed I was very sleepy (taken some sleeping medication). I didn't want to get frustrated with him if he showed no signs of wanting intimacy. He did stroke my arm and played with my hair and we talked a bit, but he could tell I was a gonner so he rolled over and went to sleep. I really don't know how to handle this situation. Never happened before.
Like you, Lily, I had my bout with low libido and also know how it feels to be pressured. I certainly don't want to do that with my H, especially if when we do "get busy" it doesn't work out well he'll just be more frustrated and his self-esteem will plummet even further. The last couple of times it happened he said things like, "I'm no good for anything." "I'm not even a man." Well, gee, if you keep telling yourself these things do you think it's gonna make the situation better or make it worse? Let's think about that one, H. So, I guess in a way I'm afraid of approaching him for fear of making things worse for him. And, on the other hand, like you said, Lily, I want him to know I desire him.
Wonder what to do tonight. I think after this morning H will want to at least make an attempt. I'm not sure I can handle that right now. Even though I KNOW it has nothing to do with me, it's still pretty hard on the old ego, especially after the A.
To take sleeping pills or not to take sleeping pills, that is the question, my friends. (Shakespere, Lily - ha-ha). By the way, we've been to Stratford-upon-Avon, birth place of Shakespere. Highly romantic place for Shakespere lover's. I'd recommend it for a romantic holiday.
This sex thing is the bugs! My father used to wonder why the Creator invented sex anyway; it is such an impossible way of bringing new life to the planet.
Anyway, New Idea (trumpets, please): Maybe your H would do well in a men's group. I went to one for about six months. That's where I found out about low testosterone. Also, one of the guys there said he was helped by a shrink who specialized in sexual probs.
Guys sitting around talking HONESTLY with other guys can be a big help.
quote: Originally posted by matilda on June 20, 2002:
Sometimes I just don't know what to think. One minute H is telling me he's not sure he wants to be married anymore unless his feelings of self-hate go away, and that he's not sure he's committed to OR anymore; but he calls me at least 5-6 times during the day, asks how my day is going, what's new, etc. Today he called to ask if I wanted to go see a movie tonight. Then later he called just to talk about a deal he can get for our satellite though his company. Last night we were making vacation plans. Is he nuts or am I, or maybe we're both nuts!
I have been reading your posts for some time but have not commented. In regards to his waffling behavior, your husband seems to be the male version of my wife. Although my wife insists that she will carry the divorce through, she is constantly calling me, buying me gifts, going places with me, etc. On the one hand she says she refuses to drop her divorce action, on the other she will talk about long-term things like refinancing our house or where we should go on vacation next year.
We live near Michele’s clinic and scheduled a counseling session with Arnold of her office. She agreed to go but when she arrived, she announced to Arnold that she had only come to humor me and that nothing he could say could make her change her mind about getting a divorce. After being totally adamant that she was going to proceed with her divorce action, we spent the rest of the day together exploring a farmer’s market and landscaping our yard.
Like my wife, I believe your husband is so torn within his own emotions to the point that he doesn’t know himself what he wants. We, the spouses, are caught in the wringer attempting to deal with someone whose actions don’t always match their words. This is so difficult because we (especially me) want to approach the problem with logic and common sense—things in very short supply to our spouses at this time.
Arnold and I corresponded by email after the session with my wife and me. Here are some of his comments about my wife which may apply to your husband:
quote: it appears she wants/needs to be in control of the process and the decision making. I think she isn't as convinced of wanting to leave as she wants/needs you/her to believe. This is a pretty classic "tug-of-war" and you must continue to "drop the rope," i.e., don't make any efforts to get her to change her mind…If you can be "cool" and just pursue you're own interest while remaining friendly (most important), forward looking, positive and upbeat, you have a chance in this relationship. However (and this is really hard), you must let her take the lead.
I don’t know if any of this applies to your particular case but there seems to be common threads.
I've been studying Hurting Badly's threads over on MLC forum.
She furnishes a lot of what she calls 'thinking statements'.
One of them surfaced just a few minutes and I thought of you and your H.
She commented that when you learn the lessons that you need to learn then as you move forward so does your spouse. If you regress then he moves backward.
She also said that when you stop crying and grieving and being so visibly hurt then you remove your spouse's JUSTIFICATION and he is then forced to deal w his guilt head on.
This is what happened to your H, Matilda! Look at the guilt and remorse he'd show prior to your getting a handle on stuff. Then you changed and your H had to start looking INSIDE himself. Before if he could soothe you then he could put off the self examination.
Now he can't. This is when he has to really look and I think it's right on that he would question staying in the Marriage.
You love this man. This is when you want to 'live it' through your actions that you accept him as he is and not the way you want him to be. Let your love for him shine radiantly, Matilda.
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