Am I Creating a SSM Part V

[heatherg]

Before you start denying how much you don’t care for your H,

I don't deny that I care for my H, I still love him very much. It's just that under the circumstances, it's not the emotion that I feel most often. Most often I feel anger toward him for his attitude toward me and his actions. I have hated his behavior.

Staying for the kids is a smoke screen and you know it. You’ve left them before and seem quite accepting of having to leave them again

Cobra, WTH are you talking about?

So cut to the chase and own up to the fact that you still deeply love your husband, that you are terrified of being without him, and that in spite of all the machinations you go through to prove to yourself how independent you are, you are still very much enmeshed and dependent on him. While that is not the healthiest place to be, it is far better to accept your current weaknesses than keep deluding yourself. All of your vents are just meant to convince yourself that you don’t need him.


I have already 'owned up' to the fact that I still love my H. And at some point, if I decide to leave, I'll have to start changing my mindset to 'I can do this without him, etc'. It may be fake at first, but if I am going to leave, I may have to fake it until I make it, ya know? If I left, I would be alright, intellectually I know that. But that doesn't mean that I don't have to convince myself on many different levels. Leaving would not be easy for me, but that doesn't mean that at some point it isn't necessary, so I'll tell myself whatever I have to tell myself to get through it.

Right know you are not healthy, functional, or differentiated enough to stand on your own two feet.

Ahem. I stand on my own two feet really well actually. I'm simply a woman who is struggling immensely with the decision to stay or go. I love my H but I don't and can't love him enough for both of us. You can say I'm not differentiated and I won't dispute that, you can say that my M and the way my H and I interact is dysfunctional and I won't argue. Overall however, I am quite healthy and quite functional. My M is not my life. I have friends, I have a great job, I am a great mother and I'm successful at life by my own definition. You are correct when you say that I have many internal battles going on simultaneously and that I get my emotions all mixed up. I over analyze things and make myself crazy. There is a lot at stake and I am playing with more lives than just my own. The pressure of it all really gets to me. I'm trying to do the right thing.

Oh BTW, thanks for the comparison to CeMar. I guess your point was to offend me, or perhaps to get some validation or agreement from the rest of the BB at my expense. But really it just made me wonder what the hell you get out of making digs like that to people you don't know? Who is CeMar to you? Leave the dude alone, what do you care? If you have helpful words, then offer them. Otherwise....

And, don't get me wrong, you often have helpful words. In fact, I am thinking of myself as I write this. With my H, I may have the best of intentions. But I tend to screw it up in the delivery. I am too aggressive with the way I come across, especially if I am angry. It's the same with you. You often have helpful advice, but it tends to get lost on me because you throw in so much other crap.

[heatherg]

Blackfoot, thanks for your posts. I have a lot going on in my mind and in my life and don't really have any responses that do them justice. As soon as I am in the frame of mind to give the deserved response, I will. H and I may be making some progress, it is too early to tell if it will last, but we had a really good heart to heart Friday night. We've had a really pleasant weekend and hopefully we can keep it up. I hear what you are saying about doing what works. H gave me some insight into how he feels and I think you have been pushing me in the right direction.

I'll post again after I give this latest development a little time.

Thanks.

Koshka, thank you for checking in on me, I appreciate it.

[WrongTurnatABQ]

Heather:

I read much of your thread and while our situations are different in many ways, they are also remarkably similar in many. In one of your posts, you reference not viewing your marriage in a very positive light anymore. I can completely relate to the anger your feeling and wondering whether its all worth it, but still desperately looking for a glimmer of hope that it is. Also, while my wife and I slept in the same bed the entire time we lived together, she very little interest in intimacy for several years. We sought counseling, she went to medical professionals, but nothing helped. Thus, I can also relate to loving someone who has no physical interest in you and asking yourself whether you're willing to live in a loveless marriage going forward.

Finally, (and I'm a little embarrassed to admit this one), you also referenced your husband engaging in various strategies to control marital disagreements. While I wasn't one to walk away or ignore, I did tend to treat my wife in such discussions as an adverse witness in a cross-examination. In numerous cases, I could take something rather benign that she said, knowing how she meant it, and twist it to use it against her as an impeaching contradiction. In some ways, it became like a game. Whats important for you to know is I wasn't doing it just to be a jerk (although I now realize how stupid it was), but because I really thought she was wrong and could be quite convincing to myself, and ultimately feeling that the end justified the means. She oftentimes used the same strategy with me or would even more often walk away, pretend she wasn't listening, etc.

Only you can decide what hope you have in your relationship. Anger is inevitable and completely understandable. IMHO, I think its misguided to ask you to simply not acknowledge your anger or move past it. That said, I do believe it is possible to be angry, be resolved, and maybe even have legitimate questions in your mind as to the future of your relationship, but to separate your anger from your rational judgment about your situation. My only advice is to not be afraid of the limbo that you, me, and so many others on this board face right now. In the meantime, counseling is great and I recommend it highly. Focus on your family. Do what you can to stay busy and active. This has a great way of giving one perspective.

Best Wishes...

[heatherg]

Hey WrongTurn, thanks for stopping by. It is wild how different but yet the same all of our situations can be. I think it's because even though the circumstances may be different, humans tend to be so similar in the way we react to things, at least as far as feelings go.

It's good that you can see the shortcomings you have/had that may have contributed to the downfall of your M. I'm just such an idealist....ya know, now that we all understand what we did wrong, can't we come back to the table, re-deal the cards and try again? Guess it doesn't always work like that huh? Even if it could work that way, both parties would have to be willing to step up and admit where they went wrong. It seems that for every marriage, there is one partner who won't own up to their own crap. It's frustrating.

Anyway, thanks again.

[Jabez]

Hey Heather,

Just checking in to see how you are doing.

~J

[heatherg]

Hey Jabez, thanks for checking in on me. I'm doing fine. Much better than I was before when I was focusing on my M 24 hours a day 7 days a week.
As much as this board can help, sometimes getting away is critical.
I'm reading a book called "Dark Nights of the Soul" by Thomas Moore and so far it's a great read. I've realized that I don't have to treat the problems in my life right now, primarily my M, as a problem to be fixed. Rather I can experience the feelings and the circumstances and feel more like I am on a journey in life rather than lost in the woods desperate to find the path to 'fix' everything. I have steered clear of relationship books because I can't control what my H does. Reading about how to make my M better frustrates me. Expecting nothing is a crock. When you're reading the books, trying things, monitoring the results, eventually you're gonna expect something. So, the only way I have found to not expect anything is to focus strictly on me and this journey, not on my M. I'm living my life, spending time with my kids, trying to be in today instead of tomorrow.

In short, that's my update.

[Jabez]

You threw me for a loop there for a moment. I read a book called The dark night of the soul : a psychiatrist explores the connection between darkness and spiritual growth by Gerald G. May. It was a spritual book recommended by COG and I didn't remember you being a spritual person. Wierd how the two books have almost identical titles.

Glad your doing better.

Jabez

[heatherg]

Welllll, I said I don't really believe in God, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I am not a spiritual person. I believe in people, in the goodness of people and I think that nurturing our souls is important. That is the spiritual part of me, but it doesn't tie to religion per se.

[heatherg]

Cobra,
I feel mostly that it is the recovery of my M that is stuck, not really my personal recovery. My personal growth will be a lifelong process I'm sure. I am still relatively young and I haven't had very many life experiences, so I may even be younger than my years in some ways. I am making progress.

I want to stay in this emotional place for a while. I don’t want to hear that I’m not healthy, said with the implication that I need to do something about it ASAP. I want to appreciate the lessons I’m learning and the pain I’ve been through and I need to stop trying to rush through this period in my life, trying to get to the ‘solution’. The book I’m reading has been really great, it puts a different perspective on difficult times, which I sorely needed (the new perspective I mean, could have done without the difficult times ). I am accepting that difficult times are part of the journey, part of the bigger picture in life and are necessary to becoming a deeper, richer person. It’s helped me understand that I don’t need to hurry up and ‘get better’ and the author put into words something that I feel-that modern psychology puts such an emphasis on getting better and moving on that people try to rush through their difficult times perhaps not allowing themselves to fully feel what they need to feel and never really understanding the opportunities that are brought forth as a result of suffering.

I’m missing something in my life, some spiritual expression. I’m not religious and don’t really necessarily believe in God. I wouldn’t say that I am Atheist, probably more agnostic. But I do believe in ritualistic expressions, tradition, fate. And I do believe that I am missing something although I can’t quite put my finger on what it is. I have been spending quite a bit of time thinking about this.

Lately, I feel calm and at peace for the most part. I hope that isn’t entirely due to the fact that H has been out of town for nearly a month, but it’s entirely possible. Right now, I feel as though I can get beyond the intense emotions that have plagued me and maybe get to the lessons, the whys of it all and the decisions about how to go on from here. I have to admit though, I am worried that the emotional turmoil will begin again upon H’s return. I am very content with things as they are…I have a connection with H, we talk about kid stuff and house stuff. I have the support of his family. But I don’t have to deal with H on a daily basis and I am peaceful. I wish it could stay this way quite frankly.

To the point at hand…..this discussion started because I think it is too generic to say that a person’s FOO is always involved in the case of an A. I had an A because I didn’t feel like I was number one in my H’s life and in addition, I wasn’t getting the attention and/or interaction with him that I need <ed>. It was a selfish answer to a common problem. My childhood obviously contributed to who I am today and may even have something to do with how I interpret love. But to try to find a deeper connection between my A and my childhood is, IMO, fruitless.


They are scared to confront their own issues, responsibilities and problems in the marriage, so they “act out.”

In some cases, yeah. But there are an awful lot of cases, certainly mine, where the person who has the A firmly believes that they tried to tell their partner in every way they knew how, that their needs were not being met in the R. So, scared or not, many cheating partners do in fact feel that they faced at least the problems in the M and perhaps their own issues and responsibilities too (although probably not to the extent needed as most people have a tendency to blame their partner rather than take on the responsibility themselves).

Your statement implies that an empty relationship is a force that acts upon you and forces you to seek out an EA. In other words, you are the victim of circumstance. This is simply not true. You are NOT a victim in your marriage.

By the virtue of the vows you take in M, you lock yourself into a lifetime with one partner. Now, I’m not saying one should take on the perspective of being a victim if M doesn't go as you'd expected, I’m saying that you are limited as to the paths you can take (or even would *want* to take) to get your needs met. To underestimate the effects this can have on a person is foolish.

It is possible to accept the lesser of two evils Cobra. I would like to make R issues as simple as saying ‘if it isn’t working, at some point, you need to be prepared to end the M’, which is what Schnarch would say I guess. But that isn’t an acceptable answer to me, nor is it for many other people. Logically, I can see the validity of it. But our interpersonal relationships with people, our partners in particular, are based on much more than logic and certainly in the short term ending my M would not make me happy and perhaps, god forbid, in the long term I wouldn’t be happy either. Being a mother isn’t something I would say I was born to do~but I love my children immensely, am a far better mother than I ever believed I would be, and my children certainly deserve to have me at an arm’s length at all times. You’ve told me before that I hide behind my children, basically using them as an empty excuse to stay in my M with a defeatist’s attitude. I say in return that you simply don’t know me well enough to make that kind of a statement. Whether you understand it or not, believe it or not, children make leaving a M a damn near impossible decision for a mother, at least one who is thinking clearly without the effects of an A or MLC.

One consequence I can see, and that I experienced with my W, is that by going to a relationship counselor, both you AND the COUNSELOR are now dependent on your H for progress. You have handed to him the power to now stonewall TWO people.

I can’t decide what I think about this comment. On one hand, I like it, it seems to make sense, the cause and effect seems rational. On the other hand, it doesn’t ring true to me. Kind of a sales pitch or something that, on the surface, makes sense but after you’ve had time to think about it you’re still left thinking ‘Yeah, ok, but what does that MEAN?’. I acknowledge that H cannot stonewall my personal growth. But he can stonewall the M. To say that I can prevent that or stop that also reminds me of sales where they make you feel that the product and the sales script is so good that if you can’t sell it, then YOU must be the problem. If that’s what you’re trying to tell me, then you’re right, I guess I still don’t ‘get it’. A M is a covenant between two people because it *takes* two people. H can choose whatever path he wants pertaining to this M and unfortunately I have to accept it, emotionally divorce/withdraw or leave. I can take the path of personal growth and hope that it has some effects on my M, but ultimately, I cannot change the course of this M without H’s help. Just by saying that I won’t *allow* him to stonewall the progress unfortunately doesn’t make it so…..we ARE dependent on H for the progress of the M.

What type of counselor are you seeing? Is s/he a relationship counselor, focusing on validation and affirmation between you two versus focusing more on each of individually and not trying to focus on “the marriage?”


She's the former. Almost everyone I talk to is the former. Probably why I'm so frustrated, huh? I'm sick of hearing that my M is not healthy, that eventually something has to change, that both people have to want it to work, etc. I know all that and the fact that I alone cannot change those facts is extremely frustrating. I choose to think about my actual M very little lately. Again, that could be because H is gone.

I do agree that we may have been putting the cart before the horse with the MC, so thank you for pointing that out. I had already been in IC for a year and half but H was not, so he in particular was probably not in the right place for MC yet.

Perhaps you should find a counselor with a different philosophy?

Perhaps. I have already personally committed to my own growth, whereas H has not. So, I can go through counselors until the cows come home, but I’m still not going to get the desired effect because I have no leverage to entice H to go to IC and deal with his own issues.

After some thought, I decided I would like to say a little about my decision not to maintain a thread. During the weeks prior to my absence, I had a lot of difficulty composing my posts. I was bothered by many of the words left behind on my thread by Lil and yourself. I decided that what was bothering me in particular was that I don't want psychoanalysis. No one here knows me well enough to imply that they know more about me than I do. I appreciate any and all suggestions made with good intent...you and many others have been very involved in my personal growth and I am grateful. In retrospect however, there have been several posts that were disrespectful overall. I certainly don't want to give those posts more credit than the ones that spoke directly to my heart and moved me to the point of tears or those posts that contained wit and and an edge that was just sharp enough to make me question myself or the posts that contained a general sense of caring for my wellbeing or those posts by people who just stopped in to offer their mild .02 when I needed it. So, I don't want to focus on the posts that I found disturbing, but I do want to say that I was affected by it.

[Cobra]

Heather,

I’m not sure how to respond to you. I know the pain and frustration you are going through and the concern you have for your kids by staying in the marriage. But I still get the same theme from you, that you are a victim and until your H decides to step up to the plate, there is little you can do to salvage the marriage. If you truly believe this, then you haven’t been listening to what so many wise posters have been saying to you and others. I know I have made you angry and I have been sharp with you, but dang it Heather, you just frustrate the h*ll out of me at times. Perhaps it is because you are too stubborn, a fighter, and won’t take no for an answer. I am like that too and perhaps that is why you can get under my skin. It may also be because I and so many others can see how this stubbornness holds you back and keeps you pitted in a power struggle with your H. It seems like everyone has told you this and yet you continue.

Your current peace of mind is a good thing. Letting the anger and resentment subside allows you to see things more objectively, lets you re-center your balance. You can trust your world and therefore yourself. As Corri said, you can build respect for yourself which creates self confidence and allows resentment to wane. Perhaps what you are sensing and longing for is not religion per se, but the comfort and security of having faith, of removing that dread of the future. Religion can do this, but you don’t need to have religion. Agnostics can still have faith – faith in themselves, the goodness of man, the predictability of this universe. Maybe that is God. I don’t know. Is that faith, that longing for a positive future what you are looking for?

Taking some time for yourself is essential, but do not run away from your growth. That is what triggered much of this trouble and will rekindle the fears in your H. I am concerned that as soon as your H steps back in the house, you two will lock horns again and the whole cycle will restart. It cannot happen any other way because neither of you have grown enough to prevent it.

I am also thinking more and more that he is the pursuer and you are the avoider in your marriage (or at least these are your current roles). He is just so angry and dysfunctional that he has resorted to power plays to keep you engaged with him. He has given up chasing you since you seem to run away, so he has tried other tactics and has found that your running is really a bluff and what you really want is him. Now he has you and you’ve run out of options. You recognize the abuse and power he exerts over you, and reading up on this confirms your ideas, and just makes you more and more angry. I know that drill. That is exactly my wife’s MO. It doesn’t get her anywhere except stuck in resentment and it won’t get you anywhere either.

If you are the avoider (and he seems to be saying this very thing) then pursuing him should be the right course of action. The problem is that he can use your pursuit as an opportunity to exact revenge. Until he can get past his anger, he won’t be able to accept the pursuit and comfort you offer. So much of the advice from others on boundaries comes into play here. So does detachment, differentiation, self respect and all that good stuff.

I understand that psychoanalysis hurts. Of course we don’t know you that well. But your issues are no different from everyone else. Even though we may be wrong in our “analysis,” we are still bumping up against hidden issues that irritate you. There is still something there for you to work through. If there wasn’t our comments wouldn’t bother you.

Read back over Corri’s latest post. She mentions that Blackfoot’s comments really bothered her, possibly like some of my comments bothered you. She understands that the fact a comment bothers you means there is something underneath that needs to be brought out. Rather than avoid that discomfort, she confronted it and tried to look inside herself for the answer. And she found it! Have you done the same? If not, our questions will not go away. As far as you run, those issues will still bother you and trigger your anger. Read again what Corri wrote. It is a gold mine of insight.

So after all is said and done, what exactly should you do? Accept your issues and stop deflecting that responsibility onto everything that causes you to stay a victim and hope to be rescued:

• the marriage vows that have trapped you
• your self limitation of your options within your marriage
• your refusal to accept an answer you don’t like but which you cannot control (your lesser of two evils comment)
• your hiding behind the kids to stay in the marriage (which is really an avoidance of the abandonment issues from your FOO, see Lil’s post to CeMar about staying in the marriage only for the kids)
• your refusal to acknowledge that the only one who needs to grow to change the mix in a relationship is you and that your H does not need to be involved, your continual acceptance of your H’s power over your marriage (and therefore acceptance of your lack of options because he called your bluff)
• your unwillingness to accept the stonewalling with the counselor that you have handed your H
• your reluctance to push forward with your true growth until your H starts his growth

Do you know what I see in all this? Two things – fear and control. Think about this Heather and compare your words to the confidence and peace that is coming from Corri. It truly is like night and day. I just don’t know how else to get through your walls.