I wish you some peace. Karen said, "He is a hurt guy. He was probably hurt by someone long before you two ever met..." and I remembered saying something like that in Annapolis.
If H can't bring himself to change for the sake of your M and your family, you can't make him. I won't advise you to end your M. My advice is if you do make that decision, be sure you have a lawyer. I have no doubt that H would strike at you through your children if you are not very careful.
Peace,
Joe
My sitch More importantly, Light A Million Candles
"Is what I'm about to do going to bring me closer or move me farther away from my goal?" --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Don't give in to your "feelings", don't "react" to the situation, and do the same thing that you've always done. Don't pretend that your partner is FINALLY going to get what you're saying, .....
....Setting up your goals is VERY, VERY, VERY important!!! If you haven't done so already, stop here, and go back and complete steps number 2 & 3. Know where you want to go in your relationship. You really can't skip this part, and expect to have good results.
Once you've done this, we can help you to find some ways to take actions that will help your goals to be realized!!
Be forewarned, I'm not viewing my M in a very positive light anymore.
"Is what I'm about to do going to bring me closer or move me farther away from my goal?"
I love that quote. I've kept it in my head and it has surfaced on more than one occasion. That question seems so simple....unless your partner is unusually controlling, in which case it gets less simple.
Setting up your goals is VERY, VERY, VERY important!!! If you haven't done so already, stop here, and go back and complete steps number 2 & 3. Know where you want to go in your relationship. You really can't skip this part, and expect to have good results.
Goals. Well, honestly I feel like my M has gone past the point where I can be helped. I don't feel like I have much control over the direction of this R. But *if* I were to have goals, they would maybe go something along the lines of:
1. H will invite me to sleep back in my bed. 2. H will stop disrespecting me when I express myself and he will actually care about what I am saying. 3. We will resume a physical R. 4. We will spend alone time together, making our R a priority in our lives. 5. We will go back to counseling. 6. H will agree to work on the imagery that apparently haunts him so that we can one day share passionate kisses again. 7. H will put his wedding ring back on and recommit to our M.
Blackfoot, I am here. I have agreed to counseling. I have read books to help me understand his point of view being the betrayed partner. I have cried and apologized. I have expressed an awareness of the deep pain I have caused him. I have told him I loved him only to get no response, several times over. I have limited the places I go. I have written letters. I have initiated countless conversations. The weeks that followed the revealing of the A, I answered every question H had honestly and openly. I have offered cell phone bills. I have tried to make sure I call from work whenever possible so that H has reassurance of where I truly am. I always tell H where I am going if I leave the house and I always call if I will be late. I have expressed that I want to be his wife.
On the negative side, I have given in to the absolute hopelessnes and frustration of this R too many times and I have allowed it to control the words that have come out of my mouth or the actions I have taken. I have threatened to leave too many times. I have told him that if it were not for the children I would not be here. I have been too emotional, I have let the pitch in my voice escalate to the point where there is no hiding that I am angry. I filed for divorce and let him be served with papers without ever saying a word. I have asked questions that I knew I could not handle the answers to.
Here is the 'but'. Frustration has been at the root of every single negative thing that I have said or done. Absolute frustration. I cannot have a conversation with my H where he does not disrespect me in one way or another. He'll refuse to answer my questions, he'll call me names, he'll walk away from me, pretend he's not listening, say whatever he needs to say to get me going so he can control the conversation/situation. What the heck good does it do to have goals when you can control so little? I am like Pavlov's dog who has just given up because the amount of influence I have over my H or over this R isn't even enough to warrant a goal! And these are not post A characteristics of my R. They were characteristics of my R pre-A, and again frustration was the biggest driver of the A. I honestly could not think of ways to be more thoroughly disrespected than my H has managed. I'm not saying that my H didn't love me on some level pre-A. He had many ways of showing love and affection....when it was easy. But when we were at odds, which was just about any time I had an issue or disagreed with anything he deemed important, love was nowhere to be found. He bent me to his will every time and I see now that there is very little love involved in such actions. And so, it makes me wonder....has H ever loved me really, loved me more than he loved himself? Enough to put my needs above his own on any significant occasion? Not really. When a more difficult situation arose where it was either his way or mine, he had more effective tools in his arsenal in order to assure that he either got his own way or make me wish he would have.
I love my H, I will probably always love him. The injustice of my situation makes me want to get far away from him. Not because I want to be far away from him, but because he has to know that it is *not* ok to treat someone like this. I see how reactive that is. But I tell you, I've tried everything. We have had sex once in the last 6-7 months. Once! There are no boundaries in this R because he is too f*cking smart (or stupid, however you want to look at it) to give me enough power to create a meaningful boundary for myself. It is entirely freakin reasonable for someone to refuse sex if the partner won't even sleep in the same bed as them! I am entitled to that. But instead of having any power to exert positive change in this R, my H just quits sex. He ignores my boundary entirely instead of giving it an ounce of credibility. And so, we go from bad to worse.
When I say power to influence, I'm not talking about control.....in a R, partners must feel as though they can influence their spouse to a certain degree. Ultimately, that is what a boundary is intended for, to demand a certain amount of respect in a particular situation. I do not have that. It doesn't work. Why? Why is my R so different? Is my H just so different than the rest of the population? Why? The ONLY answer I have, is that he truly no longer has feelings for me or he is not capable of the empathy and intimacy required in a loving R. Either way, what the hell good are goals?
Believe me, I see how negative this is. I read it back to myself and I see that with these beliefs, I give myself no hope for this R. I want to have hope. I want to believe. I want to roll up my sleeves and commit. But I cannot continue to stick my head in the sand about the hurftul, demeaning and disrespectful manner in which my H chooses to 'deal' with me. It's weird. I have moments, just moments lately, where I'll tell myself I'll just stay. Whatever it costs me, I'll just stay. I'll get to be with my kids and I'll have the security of my home and my standard of living and being part of an in tact family. My blood pressure drops. I feel peace. For a moment, I believe I can do it. And then the moment passes and I think what I am teaching my kids, I think about the pain of sleeping separately. I think about the desire to be close to H knowing that I cannot. I think about the isolation we've created inside our home. I think about never experiencing love again. I think about never being held close, never being cherished again for the rest of my life. I think about the intense jealousy I feel when I see a happy couple. And my blood pressure goes back up, my defenses are back on track and I'm again battling the feelings that are with me every single hour of every single day....the feelings that come with the possibility of leaving my family and parting with my kids for such a large amount of their lives. It literally haunts me. I know I can't stay but I know I can't leave. I am absolutely stuck and horrified and hurting and angry. When all I want to do is live and love and be loved. Funny. You'd think with the amount of time I spend being heckled by all of these thoughts, I'd have come up with a way to reconcile my wants with my reality. But, I have not.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
Yes, it's 5 a.m. No I cannot sleep despite putting away a bottle of Shiraz. Perhaps more on that after I receive counsel from some friends.
The obvious hurt in your post has drawn me out tonight in sort of an kindred spirit way as I was skimming the BB. I'm not caught up with too many OPs threads BTW so bear with and I'll try and make it brief.
I love my H, I will probably always love him. The injustice of my situation makes me want to get far away from him. Not because I want to be far away from him, but because he has to know that it is *not* ok to treat someone like this.
- Heather. This is your self-respect knocking on your brain pan, trying to get you to open the door. I admire your love for H. I think that's fantastic. But your love is not tough enough. It's weak. .
Weak love=Doormat
Your love is a white belt. At some point you are going to have to turn your love into an black belt no nonsense kill or be killed machine. This is only accomplished through very hard decisions and this mind set:
1. I will not allow H to treat me as an inferiour being.
2. I will not allow H to disrespect me as an F, a mother, a lover, and an W.
3. I will not allow anyone to disrespect me or my path as I make my way in this life, the one life that I have on this Earth. If they cannot respect me then I must hold on to myself and distance myself from their lack of respect.
I hate to see you in this ongoing torture, Heather, as evidenced in your comments. But you do have the power, Heather. You just don't see it right now.
I see how reactive that is. But I tell you, I've tried everything. We have had sex once in the last 6-7 months. Once! There are no boundaries in this R because he is too f*cking smart (or stupid, however you want to look at it) to give me enough power to create a meaningful boundary for myself. It is entirely freakin reasonable for someone to refuse sex if the partner won't even sleep in the same bed as them! I am entitled to that. But instead of having any power to exert positive change in this R, my H just quits sex. He ignores my boundary entirely instead of giving it an ounce of credibility. And so, we go from bad to worse.
- Heather. I want you to look at the line, ...to give me enough power to create a meaningful boundary for myself....
-- Do you see? I'm sure you do now in hindsight. But spontaneous writing often is what is necessary to allow the subconscious to leak out its objections somewhat unfiltered.
You have a scarcity mentality going on here, Heather. This is not an F in a position of power. You are giving it all to H to decide for the both of you as to how the R should proceed.
I just saw "The Devil Wears Prada" with Meryl Streep as an "dragon lady" head of a fashion mag. (yes, I'm secure in my masculinity thank you. Go back to your peanut gallery and hold the comments, you insecure Ms.)
Anyway, she has a lot of flaws, yes, but she would never say a comment like this. She keeps her power for herself and projects strength under duress.
Heather, you don't need H's permission to set a boundary. It's a simple as mentally deciding what you will and will not tolerate then slamming down the line/fence/wall and refusing to cave in in the face of unpleasantries. If the OP resists? Sorry, all my decisions are final. No negotiating. Take it or leave it.
If you accept my boundary? Fine. Then I will work with you since I now have your respect.
And you made a nice summation just afterwards...
When I say power to influence, I'm not talking about control.....in a R, partners must feel as though they can influence their spouse to a certain degree. Ultimately, that is what a boundary is intended for, to demand a certain amount of respect in a particular situation.
- You have exactly the right logic Heather but the only piece where you're off target is in the focus. Too other-directed. Essentially your boundary is for you and for you alone regardless of how OP respond to them. Some may respond positively, others terribly negatively. doesn't matter. Your boundary is between you and your respect for yourself. You are your own best friend and protector. You have to lean on your self-respect to carry you through life just as your self-respect has to lean on you to enforce what it wants.
What H or OP do to try and manipulate you to give up your beliefs/protection of self is irrelevant. They are only outside forces that must fall in line if they want to continue an interaction with you.
Finally, Heather. I know you wanted to stick it out for a year but this last post makes me think it can't possibly be maintained without causing you terrible stress and possible health problems, both mentally and physically. Yes, you have done a yeoman's job. Even in the short time I've followed your sitch it's like watching Sysyphus from greek myth pushing his boulder up the hill and just as he reaches the top it rolls all the way back down again over and over...
Or like the thirst-crazed Tantalus who just as he dips his chin to drink the cool water in Hades watches helpelessly as the water level suddenly drops out of reach every single time (hence, the word "tantalize.")
But screw these indulgent references. I see you near/at your breaking point, Heather. It's my belief your H will never let you up from this dysfunctional dynamic in which you both are participants. IMO he will never see "the sign" of your remorse. Broken/scratched records do that. They will sit there and skip skip skip until something bumps the needle and gets it moving again.
At some point you are going to have to muster up the strength to say enough is enough, along the lines of...
"H. I want so much from our r. I want so many positive things to happen between us and our family.
But it's been 2 whole years and you still don't trust me. All I wanted these past 2 years was to sleep with my H and share our love and be close to you. Well, now I've realized you won't allow that to happen. And frankly, I now realize I can't sleep in an bed with someone who does not trust me..."
- I don't want to go on and on here Heather with made-up dialogue. Don't like doing that. It's just that you're in a breaking point situation partially set up by your threatening to leave H etc. over and over again, which never happens or you always come back.
At some point you are going to have to break the ice jam. Your final boundary. The deal breaker. Either H accepts your boundary or you will leave...no ifs, ands, or buts.
Gone.
To an new apt. etc. and the separation papers will be drawn up.
Otherwise you will be spinning in this ongoing eddy of H punishment forever and I know you feel your life is to valuable to live like that.
Heather, despite what you think, H does not hold the power. He does not want to lose you. If he did, he would be gone or with an OW. It's my feeling that he subconsciously has a very real disrespect for you because you never follow through with what you threaten...and he uses that disrespect to pile on you even more.
Be decisive. Figure out what you will and will not tolerate as to H's treatment of you and then don't budge from that goal.
If physically leaving would be an 180 compared to the constant ongoing empty threats of leaving then that should be a consideration for you.
Firmness without devolving into anger makes people take notice. And if your personal boundary is understandable to anyone observing how you feel about any situation then holding firm to it/them will only gain the OP's respect...
...and that's what you need from H IMO.
-Stigmata-
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
thats why I posted the link for you, becuase I saw you say that you were going to stay for another year. Since you are, for your own sake, stop giving anger for anger, hurt for hurt, withdrawal for withdrawal, boundary for boundary. all of your negatives, about the R, all or your feelings... I discount none of them. out of your 7 goals I only see #'s 3 and maybe 4 as being goals that you have any say or control over. The rest are requirements, expectations and powerplays. IF he ..... then....
Stop this. sheesh. make goals that you can do. what are things that you have complete control over to generate positive feelings? That is power.
since this is the boundary you have brought up....
Quote: There are no boundaries in this R because he is too f*cking smart (or stupid, however you want to look at it) to give me enough power to create a meaningful boundary for myself. It is entirely freakin reasonable for someone to refuse sex if the partner won't even sleep in the same bed as them! is it? if you had your own apt, or were dating how much shared bed sleeping would there be? I am entitled to that. But instead of having any power to exert positive change in this R, my H just quits sex. He ignores my boundary entirely instead of giving it an ounce of credibility. And so, we go from bad to worse
you have said yourself what the result of the boundary is. he sets boundarys and wants you to respect them, and then in return he does respect yours, when you make one. he didnt ignore it unless the point of your boundary was to get him to move. now you both have boundaries that prevent love. IF thats not what you want to accomplish from your boundary, then you are creating a powerplay, tit for tat, boundary. Is it a solution or are you being right? Is it creating a rift, or creating closeness.
What is your entitlement getting you?
How does it make him feel that you withdraw from him even more? You go on vacation and have sex, then immediately ask for compensation by sleeping in your bed again. He says no --how does he know if this intimacy is for real?-- so you cut him off again. so was the sex mutual, or was it to extract something? I know what it was, but I also see how it appeared to him. Is that lovingly detached, or is that sex as a weapon. more powerplays? Is it reactionary? did you read the rest of the thread? Have you set up a DB appointment yet?
Im trying to ask questions instead of make statements. How am I doing? I dont like it.
You want him to work on his imagary, and yet by your own post you continue to keep yourself in limbo land thru your own imagary, blood pressure up and blood pressure down, depending on how you switch your perspective. If you are there for some time to come, why do that to yourself? I can think of some reasons, but they are not demonstrations of self control.
Your H will not be coerced, forced, manipulated, thru powerplays or withdrawal.
They dont work. They are not a solution with your M. are we in agreement on that? I think we both know that. Much like I have said to Brian, there are many weapons in your feminine arsenal that will be far more effective.
There are so few guys that could pass, your tests heather. He will not be controlled by you. he will not cave to the powerplays etc. There are behaviors by you that may/will work over t i m e. but if you are just going to continue with the powerplays and trying to control him, then the next year is going to be miserable for you.
I am absolutely stuck and horrified and hurting and angry. When all I want to do is live and love and be loved. I know. Dont we all. Give what you want. For your own sake, I really hope you 1) detach and stop being reactionary 2) do what works.
That question seems so simple....unless your partner is unusually controlling, in which case it gets less simple your just as controlling as he is.
I want to have hope. I want to believe. I want to roll up my sleeves and commit. hope comes from within, it comes from confidance in self. Same with our beliefs. they come from what we focus on. Doing is not as easy as wanting. it requires effort and giving. Wanting just lets you sit idly by hoping someone will come fill your wish list.
But I cannot continue to stick my head in the sand about the hurftul, demeaning and disrespectful manner in which my H chooses to 'deal' with me.
Ok. when Mrs. Nop offered you a real, useful, to dealing with that solution, did she suggest you stick you head in the sand?
I love my H, I will probably always love him.
I know, and I know you arent going anywhere for awhile. that doesnt even perplex me in the slightest. so please stop doing what isnt working, your thoughts and actions that are making your life miserable.
Take control of yourself, stop being reactionary, without withdrawing, and you will take your power back in a way that can restrain and heal the negative emotions in you.
anychance you are too addicted to them, to control yourself?
technically speaking I dont disagree with the concepts in stig's post. from a solution oriented perspective, negative pushes and withdrawing are the worst things you can do in your R.
Mmmm. Seems my new found self-hypnotic ability to condense 8 hours of shuteye into 4 without detriment is working. Goody goody for me.
To follow up. BF made some good comments above about your power plays and your untapped feminine arsenal.
I wanted to clarify my comments JIC.
1. IMO H does not hate or loathe etc. you. From your posts he never is the one who threatens to leve or at least if he does it is minimal compared with you. You've gone to the well ten times too many on your "threats" and he disrespects you for it as any person would.
2. I am not saying to set your boundary with a negative frame or intent or to withdraw. I am all about the solution-based approaches as evidenced in my various posts.
...But not to the detriment of someone's well being come hell or high water.
What I see is your negative yo yo frame and power plays, as BF said, over an M who is like a crippled ship, listing at sea from your A is poisoning/muddying the waters of reconciliation.
In other words, I feel you are doing more irreparable damage staying in the fray with this frame of mind than if you were to detach and, quite possible, discuss some time apart.
Again, this does not mean withdrawal. More like protecting the one you love and yourself from toxic damaging interactions if you just can't seem to keep the atmosphere in your house very very positive and loving.
I see you both as caged scorpions eyeing each other in a very small jar...waving your tails in a menacing way as soon as you perceive a move from the other.
This kind of chronic silent mutual hostility cannot sustain a healthy R. It is wiping out each of your love units.
So forgive any perception that I am saying to not hang in there with H. Like BF was saying, lovingly detach and think before you react...is this going to be a positive thing coming out of my mouth or another missile shot at our R and H's listing ship?
I'll be honest. From what I've seen as to how you handle your reactions I don't think you have what it takes yet to be able to do this consistently in such close proximity with H and H's pain. The only way one can do this is to allow your observing ego to stand outside of yourself and view what's going on in your household with pure rational no nonsense/BS objectivity.
This takes tons of self-awareness and self control. Yes, it can be done. But it's a lot harder when you find yourself in a very small jar and facing an wounded scorpion claw to claw.
-Stigmata-
PS. Thanks for reaffirming the solutions Heather still can utilize BF...I still feel there is something positive here once you and H can break this huge dynamic of codependency in which you both are mired.
The difference between a warrior and an ordinary man is the warrior views everything as a challenge; the ordinary man views everything as either a blessing or a curse.
-Yaqui shaman Don Juan-
...and that holds 2x true for nice guy wussies, DJ
Ok. Say I were to buckle down and really do this. How do I then handle the following:
I called H Sunday morning, he is out of town. I knew he had gone out the night before, my gut just knew. He didn't answer the phone the first time, I was leaving a voicemail and then realized he was calling me back. I picked up and said hi. Asked if he was still sleeping (it was 11:30 in the morning) and he said 'dozing in and out' in a playful way. I said 'where'd you guys go last night?' He said '....where did we *go* last night....?' like my question didn't make any sense. I remained quiet. After stalling as long as he could, he said 'Actually, I went out last night'. This interaction really, really pissed me off. First because I realized he hadn't intended to tell me. Mr. Trust. Second because once I questioned him, he tried to play his 'you're crazy mind trick' by trying to pretend my question didn't make sense although he quickly realized he wasn't going to be able to play that card for long as the question is very straightforward. So he told the truth. There was another time he went out to a bar and lied to me about it. Tried to say he just went to the ATM. At 12:30 at night? After he'd been drinking? HEL-LO. So, I looked at his ATM slip and then counted his cash. $20 was missing and he had a bunch of $1 bills. I said 'unless you were mugged on the way home, you didn't just go to the ATM'. He lied to my face that day. Not because I have disallowed him to go out. Because HE has disallowed ME to go out and he knows he has created a double standard. He knows it. So he lies to me rather than face up. What else has he lied about? What other pieces am I missing? Because I do, very much, feel like I am missing pieces. This crap just doesn't add up! I explained to H that it makes no sense for him to demand that I am trustworthy while he lies! I explained that I cannot trust him either, asked why he lies to me, why he doesn't straight up tell me where he's going and what he's doing. I asked questions about past outings that I may not know about. Asked if he's gone to strip clubs or topless bars. He said 'not in a long time'. I said 'how long?' He said he couldn't remember. I said 'I'll give you a few minutes, just try'. He said 'it's not worth thinking about, it's been a long time'. I said 'Well, long time or not, I should know about it, so has it been in the last two years?' He said he didn't know. Then he kept focusing on what a crazy person I sounded like. My voice gets really high pitched when I'm angry, but I was not by any means out of control, never got disrespectful or called him names. Just asked questions and refused to let him bow out of answering them. But he got away anyway. He eventually hurt my feelings and disrespected me to the point that I hung up. He kept saying things like 'How did I get here? How did I get to the place where my W grills me like this?' Or 'I have you on speaker phone because I am sick of holding the phone up to my ear and you should hear yourself...'. It's always me. I said 'H, I am angry right now. I may not sound at my best, but I don't need to sound my best when I am angry'. But he wouldn't let it go. I hung up. We haven't spoken since except about the kids or other necessary stuff. During our argument, I made the mistake of asking him if he could list any reason, besides our children, why I should stay with him. He said no and he couldn't think of any reasons to stay with me either. He said I'm mean and I'm bitter and I hate him the same way I always have. Always the victim. Just answer my f*cking questions and quite lying to me and I won't hate you! Is it really supposed to be this one-sided?
Ok, so fast forward to today. If I were to 'do what it takes', how do I reconcile that event in my mind? Knowing that it is not the situation, not particularly what was discussed, but how he handled it, how he bows out of his own responsibility over and over whil making me pay the ultimate price for my mistakes...and he knows he has all the power to decide when I have fully paid that price. He lies while he demands that I be truthful. He refuses to give up things he knows hurt me and he won't even discuss those things with me, won't tell me details of what he does or does not do. I pointed out that he insists I've never been sorry for what I've done, but meanwhile, he has refused to discuss things with me, tells me 'it's not worth thinking aobut' even when I've expressed that it's important to me (which tells me *I'm* not worth it for him to think about it), refuses to take responsibility, etc. He said "oh and when did I ever get back to the point where I give a [censored]?' and I said 'you don't give a [censored], is that what you're saying?' He never asnwered that directly I realize now.
He has told me over and over that he wants me to fix this. In his eyes, I broke it and I need to fix it. And when he thinks it's good enough, MAYBE he'll participate. God, I can see some of the things I could do to make things better, I can see things that have worked. But worked how well and for how long? There was always something, some new card he would pull. I may have been able to fix some surface issues, but never any of the deeper issues. Because I *can't* fix those by myself. It takes two. I can change the dynamics, change the surface stuff. But I can't change who H is and I can't accept him the way he is either. No amount of Dbing will do either of those things for me.
"Happiness is a butterfly, which, when pursued, is always just beyond your grasp, but which, if you will sit down quietly, may alight upon you."
I really don’t know what anyone can do to help you anymore. I don’t know what new question you are asking because it seems like you’ve asked about "how do I" before and have had them all answered ad nauseam. Stop being the victim, stop looking to others for your validation and go take an anger management class. Sheesh! You’re starting to sound a LOT like CeMar!
You are focusing on the trees. Look at the forest. The more you post the more I believe that you and your H are both done with each other. Isn't there a way that you guys can respectfully part? I am a big believer in marriage but I am not a big believer in staying in a soul sucking situation and isn't that what this is? You go to karate - he's so unsure of the marriage that he's ticked and doesn't "trust you" and you, the designated untrustworthy one was just going to karate. He, the designated trustworthy one DOES go out on at least two occasions and lies or evades about it. You don't sleep in the same bed. You don't parent together. What part of this R isn't demeaning, soul sucking and detrimental to you both?
