Am I Creating a SSM Part V

[heatherg]

Balto: If you do nothing, the status quo will most likely extend longer than you are willing to wait so for all practical purposes there is no downside to the effort as the only real negative effect is what you are currently living with (I'm assuming physical safety is not in question).

I see your point. And I think if I do this, it truly would need to be a last ditch effort because, while I don't think H would try to use physical force again, I do believe that he would make my life such a living hell that I would regret ever taking a stance on the matter. H is a night owl and by nature stays up 2-3 hours later than me per night.....he would have plenty of time to torture me without losing a wink of sleep himself.
I believe that going back to my own bed would probably only escalate things to the point where separation would become inescapable....unless I wanted to back down and cause the whole stir for nothing which is obviously not a very good option. I would have to be very, very careful about what I chose to say.....probably very little to nothing actually, because if he detected a hint of an ultimatum, he would turn the whole thing into "Awe, poor baby has to have everything her way or else she's gonna divorce me...". If I chose this route, I would have to be prepared for months of torture, over which time, *hopefully* he would back off. Where that gets me, I'm not entirely sure because there are really two issues here. One is the issue of being forced to do something I don't think is right, the other is that after two years I strongly believe we should be sleeping *together* in the same bed and I do not agree with the message sleeping separately sends to our kids. Forcing my way back into my own bed may solve my first issue but I highly doubt it will solve my second issue because H would almost certainly not choose to sleep in the same bed with me. I'm really trying to think about this from all angles because it would be a very serious move. I know it may not seem like it to some of you who think the whole thing is just stupid...like my sister for instance who absolutely cannot fathom why I don't just go and sleep in my own bed. I know it is hard for people to understand. And then there are probably others who read my thread and think "Is she ever gonna take a stand, *do* something, *any*thing?!" I despise being thought of as weak or indecisive or as rationalizing the status quo, but this decision could carry many consequences.

Burgbud: I apologize if you mentioned this and I missed it, but how'd your karate testing go?

Hey, it went good thanks for asking!! I got my stripe and as it turned out, I think H would have ended up bringing the kids if S5 hadn't decided he didn't want to go afterall. H didn't encourage going, but I think he would have taken them if they'd wanted to go so that's good.

I'm so sorry to see you say goodbye But I am very, very happy that your life is really starting to move forward. I can't believe she finally moved out!!! Yey! I have to admit, I was wondering if she would ever leave, kwim? Take the dating thing slow, have fun with it. Who cares if you don't date at all for a while, just enjoy your space man. Take care Burgbud.
Keep your word and stop by now and again to check in on me!

Blackfoot: This comment gives me pause on my previous opinion, but only you will know if he is talking about you pushing it on a verbal level or with demands or anger.

Well, how are you saying I should push it? You said you thought I should just go and sleep in my own bed. Ok, I could do that. I guarantee you he is going to say 'no way in hell, get out'. What then? Do I get up and leave? Do I stay, repeating that I want to sleep in my bed with my H? Because, I also guarantee that he would see my staying in the bed as escalation of the issue and as demanding my own way.
I've tried to push the issue verbally and just get shot down, although he insists that I could sleep in my bed one day, it's all in my power.

if its done in a loving detached manner, and not a escalation of wills, I understand your feeling on this.

Loving, detached manner?! Last time he ripped my blankets off me, blared the TV, etc. all of which I fully anticipate he would do again. And I would act loving....how? I am serisouly considering your advice Blackfoot, but statements like the above two make me feel like you don't have a good grasp on what would happen if I tried to go back to my bed, which makes me rethink your advice, wondering if you'd change it if you had all the pieces.

I have thought this and rethought this and I come up with different answers each time about whether or not it is a good idea. I mean, even MWD says we've gotta *do* something right, do anything. Just take action. And like I said, I've been seriously considering the advice you've given me, but I don't want to consider it if you feel like you didn't have all the relevant info to give it.

Blackfoot: Im curious. does he ever say things like we should seperate then, or I want a D, etc?


No. Nor has he ever said he wants to work it out or that he loves me or even cares about me.

Blackfoot: Have you ever thought of going to your bed, during the night like your kids do? If he asks just say 'I want to be with my family'. That will not only be honest, but will probably be really scary for you, as it leaves you wide open to rejection, that you mentioned before, not wanting to give him that ability.

Again, what would I do when he says no? Leave? That makes me feel worse than I did before I tried, kwim? He *would* say no. I just asked him 3 weeks ago and nothing has happened since then that would indicate he's changed his mind.

finding reasons that tell you that your H does care for you.

Well, he has been really good about killing any bugs I have seen in the house for me. That's about the only positive I can see at the moment.
Somewhere you posted that certain things I relay make others hurt for me. After two years, what I want to know is, if my H really does care for me, why has he shown no empathy? He hasn't backed down on a single thing. Like I said above, I haven't heard any loving words in forever. For months after I revealed the A, I would tell him I loved him. It would fall on dead air so eventually I stopped saying it. I know I couldn't do this to him. Hell, I couldn't do this to myself! Why he's doing this to himself is beyond me. But, let's just say that I'm nowhere near convinced that my H gives a sh!t if I live or die. And I am absolutely *not* being melodramatic. If we separate, he'd only have the kids 50% of the time. If I died on the other hand...

[karen1]

Heather,

If this is the case and you are convinced of this, why are you still there? Is it for the kids? Is it to punish yourself? Is it because you don't know if you still love him or not?
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After two years, what I want to know is, if my H really does care for me, why has he shown no empathy? He hasn't backed down on a single thing. Like I said above, I haven't heard any loving words in forever. For months after I revealed the A, I would tell him I loved him. It would fall on dead air so eventually I stopped saying it. I know I couldn't do this to him. Hell, I couldn't do this to myself! Why he's doing this to himself is beyond me. But, let's just say that I'm nowhere near convinced that my H gives a sh!t if I live or die. And I am absolutely *not* being melodramatic. If we separate, he'd only have the kids 50% of the time.
___________________________________________________________

You say you aren't being melodramatic. I believe you. What will it take for you to leave? It seems that H is showing you the door and waiting to see if you will walk through it but he won't say that he wants you to go because he doesn't know if he does or not. Is it just a point of honor that if you leave you will just prove him right? Are you hoping that at some point he will say, "Heather, I understand why you had the A?" I don't think that is likely to happen. He might someday understand that he had some responsibility in it but he will never understand why you did it.

I'm not trying to be a "b" Heather and I know that your situation sucks but I often get the feeling that you aren't there for any reason other than to prove H wrong in his thinking that you aren't trustworthy, that you aren't remorseful about the affair. Oh, he is sticking it to you big time but I think he doubts that you love him just as much as you doubt that he loves you. When you had your affair you did, in essence, "unchoose H", you haven't "rechosen him" either. If you are just plain done then give yourself and H the courtesy of saying so.

I'm not trying to berate you but I am suggesting that you need to decide if you are staying and why.

Karen

[heatherg]

Karen, I know it seems crazy that I stay given how I feel. There have been times when I've felt moments of clarity where I truly feel like I have the strength to leave....and then I look at my kids and I instantly start to sob. It makes my heart turn inside out to think of what this would do to them.
My H has been gone for two days and S5 misses him so much when he's gone....he sleeps with his shirts, the first night he cried, etc. I can't imagine trying to explain to them that this is the way it will be from now on.
Quite honestly, that is why I stay. Because as much as this sucks for me, they are still happy.

I don't expect H to ever understand why I had the A, although I'm not sure we'll ever be able to move forward if he doesn't on some level. He has to feel a little empathy for me in order to get an idea of where I was at mentally I think. But I'm not holding out for that by any means. I would just like us to be able to move forward. I do hold out hope that someday he will say 'I hate that part of you that did that to me, but I still love you and am ready to move forward." I do feel like if I can do better, try harder, maybe that could happen. I wonder sometimes if he doesn't have any idea how much I'm hurting, I wonder if I've let anything but my anger show. And I blame myself for that and I try to think of ways to get it through. But ultimately I just drive myself crazy, get discouraged and end up back in a place where I just want to quit.

[heatherg]

You know, as I sit here, wondering about 'rechoosing' H, feeling guilty because I haven't do so.....

It occurs to me that I cannot give any guarantees. I do not ask for any from H either. Just a simple commitment to try on both our parts. Clearly I was not in a good place before the A. H has hurt me on many levels and I know that I hurt him immensely with my hateful attitude toward H and his drinking habits. We both have our share of responsibility.
I have learned from my A. I have learned that I took my family for granted...even though I may not have been happy with our situation, I never fathomed how much power I had to hurt and how much capacity I had to *be* hurt. I see now that we have to guard that power, never let it get out of control as I did with my A. It was the most shameful, disrespectful and irresponsible thing I have ever done in my life and we have all lived with the aftermath for a very long time. Not just me, but H, my kids, our extended families. Everyone was affected by my mistake.
But I can't take it back. I can't undo my mistake and I can't undo the hurt it caused. I can only say that I am so very sorry and that the mistake has not been taken lightly by me. I know the magnitude of what I did and can only promise that I will never make such a mistake again.

That only addresses my A. I still reside in the place I was pre-A, only it's even crappier now. My guilt over the A doesn't make me 'realize' what a great man my H is and how he really was a wonderful H afterall. It only made me realize how much we stand to lose. How much we have to gain by trying. But aside from that, I cannot guarantee anything. I cannot commit til death do us part the way I did on our wedding day. But I sincerely want to work toward that. Is that such a bad deal?

[Greeneyedlass]

Heather...I'm curious....have you communicated your understanding and regret of your "mistake" to your H the way you did to us in your post?

I know there are other issues in your M, such has H's drinking. What you wrote though impressed upon me very clearly that you do "get it" as far as the damage you caused due to your A. Often betrayed spouses find themselves feeling that the person who had the A just doesn't understand the pain they caused....they don't feel the sincerity from the other person that they need to (even though the spouse who had the A is trying to show remorse). Maybe he's stuck in that place too? Perhaps your resentment of him in other parts of your M is coming across to him as insincerity of your remorse?

I'm just trying to see both of the sides here to maybe clear away a stumbling block, so you can both move forward. My XH was an alcoholic, so I can imagine how my resentment of his drinking would come across....say if my current H was also an alcoholic. If my H (current) had put out the impression towards me that he was unhappy with me about oh, I don't know...anything really....when I found out what he'd been doing.....I wouldn't have bought for a minute that he was truly remorseful....or that he cared about how he'd really hurt me.

I see this as a stumbling block for many betrayed spouses on another BB I participate on too. Many betrayed spouses go on and on about "how can I believe he/she is really sorry for the A?" "How can I know he/she will never do this again when I don't think he/she gets how bad he/she hurt me?"

Not beating you up....it was just a thought that occured to me. I know you've apologized to him time and time again...I'm just wondering if your resentments of other things is keeping that sencerity from getting through to him.

GEL

[heatherg]

Heather...I'm curious....have you communicated your understanding and regret of your "mistake" to your H the way you did to us in your post?

Not in a long time quite frankly. Over time, I have steadily built my defenses and now we don't even have intimate talks anymore where something like that could even come out. Any talks we have these days go more like

H: "You've never been sorry for what you did, you have never recommitted to me."
Heather: "H, I *am* sorry for what I did..."
H cuts in: "Yeah, you're sorry alright. You continue to do whatever you want, thinking there should be no consequences for your actions".
Heather: "I am committed, I do want to make this work, but things can't go on as they are..."
H: "Sure, everything needs to go back to the way it was, you get everything your way, life just goes on right?"

And on and on. I get so angry because there is no acknowledgement of anything I say...I might as well not be speaking, so lately I just don't.

so I can imagine how my resentment of his drinking would come across....say if my current H was also an alcoholic. If my H (current) had put out the impression towards me that he was unhappy with me about oh, I don't know...anything really....when I found out what he'd been doing.....I wouldn't have bought for a minute that he was truly remorseful....or that he cared about how he'd really hurt me.

Sorry, I'm a little confused, lol....do you mean if your current H was an alcoholic and he said he was unhappy with you for something, you wouldn't have thought he was truly sorry for drinking or for the pornography?

I know you've apologized to him time and time again...I'm just wondering if your resentments of other things is keeping that sencerity from getting through to him.

I haven't really apologized time and time again. I *have* apologized, but maybe not as much as he would like? I don't know.

GEL, I think you are absolutely dead on. My resentments about other things probably keep my sincerity from getting through. So simple, but really has such an overall impact. I resent the he!! out of him trying to alter my life like he has.....he doesn't have the rights that he has taken and he has also never really acknowledged anything pre-A. For whatever reasons he cut back on his drinking, but he's never acknowledged the affects of living like we did had on me...he still to this day insists that much of my issues with his drinking are due to other reasons, i.e. my childhood or something. For someone who has pulled so many punches of his own, to pull these extravagent stunts...it's infuriating. It still confounds me to really think about it....I haven't slept in my bed in two fukcing years. Even when he was drunk and pissing on the floor I never kicked him out of his own bed!! It is very difficult to be both sorry and angry at the same time.

[LustForLife]

Hi Heather

Quite honestly, that is why I stay. Because as much as this sucks for me, they are still happy.

Happy does not always equate with healthy. Momentary "happiness" to your kids may not be teaching them what parents are Responsible for teaching them. And also keeping them in the necessary Child role.
Your son seems to have way too much power in your household. For instance, you mentioned your S5 didn't want to go see you at karate. Therefore, H did not take him.
That Shalom in the Home guy was just on Oprah talking about something similar. One of the kids wanted to go to a concert but his Mom was graduating college and he had a fit because he didn't want to go. The rabbi told the parents that they have the responsibility to teach the children empathy, respect, etc for the parents and that kids always getting their way was going to make them spoiled brats. The parents Told the son he was going to the graduation because he needs to show some selflessness towards his mother,
etc.
Why are you letting a 5 year old decide where to go? You make the rules not him. You need to regain some control as a parent. You talk of H lacking empathy for you, don't your think your S is picking up on that too.
I also feel like your H is using your S to his own advantage, pitting him against you it seems. That is so destructive. And don't you have a D too? Where does she fit into all of this? You always mention how close S and H are, but I never hear about him and D.
Anyways, as the kids get older, they are going to be even more confused if you and H do not come together as a parenting "team", whether you are M or not, you need to have firmer guidelines in place.
You seem to be carrying a lot of guilt about the A. Don't let that ruin the R you have with your children, even if the one with your H is so dysfunctional.

[Greeneyedlass]

Heather,

IMPO...I see a power struggle going on with the two of you. He...being an alcoholic is very likely to excuse away his drinking (or your having an issue with it more precisely) anyway he can.....he's an alcoholc afterall and obviously not at a place where he's willing to deal with it....and unfortunately because that's likely the case....also not going to acknowledge the toll it took/takes on you. If he did that it would be tantamount to him admitting it's a problem.

So....he focuses on what YOU did, not what he's done. YOU hurt him, in his mind nothing he's done has been nearly as hurtful as your A to him. I know all too well the pain that comes with living with an alcoholic.....and there's a mountain of resentment that comes with it. Unfortunately Heather...until and IF your H ever reaches the place that he needs to in order to admit his drinking IS a problem....he won't acknowledge the pain he's put you through....and you have no control over that.

The two of you basically seem to be at a stalemate IMPO...and neither are going to budge. You want him to acknowledge his part in all of this (which I find very unlikely right now due to his current state) and he truly seems to me not to buy that you are honestly remorseful which will only keep his defenses up.

IMPO...you need to find a way to deal with your resentment towards him (as justified as it may be) if you want him to feel that you are remorseful. OR you have a few other choices...continue living the way you are now (stalemate), or make a clean break. It is painful to D, especially when kids are involved...but it can be the healthiest thing for all involved sometimes.

I'm sure this wasn't very helpful...just my 2-cents.

GEL

[heatherg]

Your son seems to have way too much power in your household.

I would agree. We discussed that in MC before H quit. MC said it was throwing off the balance in our home and the natural balance of parents on the same level and children on another level.

For instance, you mentioned your S5 didn't want to go see you at karate. Therefore, H did not take him.

Right. At first S5 said he wanted to go to my belt test, but H was refusing to bring them (he doesn't support my karate). When it came right down to the time for me to leave, I playfully asked if he was coming and it seemed he would except then S5 said he didn't want to go. I completely agree that Daddy should have spoken up and said that this is important to Mommy and she would like our support. But he doesn't feel that way, so why should he say it? There really wasn't a whole lot I could do because if H wasn't going to back me up, I would only end up looking like a selfish creep. That's also why it is difficult to get any one on one time with S5 when H is around because S5 will say he doesn't want to go, H won't encourage it, so I am put in a situation where, if I push it, I will just look desperate.
We go to nephews' birthdays, nephews' t-ball games, preschool graduations, school programs, etc. To not come and see me test for my belt sends a huge message both to me and to the kids. Mommy is not as important as everyone else.

Why are you letting a 5 year old decide where to go? You make the rules not him. You need to regain some control as a parent.

Hopefully I've explained a little about why this happens. I've tried pushing some issues, believe me. Were you around when I posted about the bedtime issue for S5? If I push it and H refuses to back me up (H would even continue to play the game with S5 or whatever they were involved in) and I try to make S5 do what I say, he cries and gets confused because Daddy is saying he doesn't have to. Daddy looks at me like I've lost my freakin mind and I feel like an a@@. See how nicely that works?

And don't you have a D too? Where does she fit into all of this? You always mention how close S and H are, but I never hear about him and D.

H has more of a 'normal' R with D3. He doesn't smother her or play her against me. He lets me put her to bed, decide what she wears, etc. H has very much set up the family in the way 'S5 is for Daddy and D3 is for Mommy'. S5 has even said that, so he very much picks up on it. D3 loves H very much and she is very close to him, but that desperation is not there on H's behalf, it's more of a normal coparenting with D3.

[LustForLife]

MC said it was throwing off the balance in our home and the natural balance of parents on the same level and children on another level.

Exactly. So what did your H say about all that?
To not come and see me test for my belt sends a huge message both to me and to the kids. Mommy is not as important as everyone else.

That's also exactly what I was thinking. And clearly, your H is OK with this set-up. That is a HUGE problem and one that personally, I would deal with before any of the M issues. Like I said before, even if the two of you D, the kids will always be there and they need both parents to raise them Together even if they are not M anymore.
Were you around when I posted about the bedtime issue for S5? If I push it and H refuses to back me up (H would even continue to play the game with S5 or whatever they were involved in) and I try to make S5 do what I say, he cries and gets confused because Daddy is saying he doesn't have to. Daddy looks at me like I've lost my freakin mind and I feel like an a@@. See how nicely that works?

All the little things add up, like setting a consistent bedtime. Maybe the two of you could agree on some things related to the kids so that it reduces some of the confusion for your S and D. If he says no to something as positive as that, I really don't know what to say anymore related to your H willingness to change. If he wants to be an A-hole to you, that is one thing and something you as an adult will need to handle, but to use the kids in these power plays is totally unacceptable. I think you need a hard boundary there.
H has more of a 'normal' R with D3. He doesn't smother her or play her against me. He lets me put her to bed, decide what she wears, etc. H has very much set up the family in the way 'S5 is for Daddy and D3 is for Mommy'. S5 has even said that, so he very much picks up on it. D3 loves H very much and she is very close to him, but that desperation is not there on H's behalf, it's more of a normal coparenting with D3.
Let me just say this, my H grew up in a similar situation. His F and him were close and his M and his sister were close but not all together as a family. The lines were drawn in the sand and everyone knew it. H's father left his M the day my H left for college. His mom and younger sister were sort of left to fend for themselves and his sister is very hurt by this even today in her 30's.
I'd break that "seperate teams" mentality asap.

I really feel horrible about your situation Heather but it makes me so sad that the kids are going through all of that, and with the two of you still together. Don't you see that? There are tons of issues here that are going to damage those kids. That's why I said before if you did choose D, you may actually be able to have some better control over how the kids are raised, and if nothing else, they will not have to witness how horrid your H treats you.