I'm not so sure it was resilience as much as no idea how to fix it and too chickensh!t to make a stink about it. It didn't help that her cousin was taking MrsGGB's side and telling me things like don't make it harder on her, she's already got her hands full with the kids etc. Bad advice like that, she didn't need.
For me, WWME was the last ditch effort, I had my walking shoes on, and the doorknob in my hand when we went.
If someone chooses not to at least try to meet the physical and emotional needs of their spouse, after promising to do so in their marriage vows, what is the difference between that and an A?
It appears you are asking me for a rationalization for adultery. Thats not going to happen. Nice try on the two choice dilemma though.
If someone chooses not to at least try to meet the physical and emotional needs of their spouse As Corri said, both spouses are 50% responsible for what happens, PRIOR to the A. So Chromo, prior to your A, were you choosing not to meet your W emotional needs, that you have now taken the time and gotten the help to understand and 'compute'? Were you intentionally killing her sex drive with the supplicating and placating, and fear? Now that you know them, are you doing a perfect job of it still?
Corri I expected to be called out on somethings in that post, but for you to say, he was 50% responsible and then to say, His verbal abuse ALONE, prior to her A, to me makes him the worst kind of offender is interesting. Seems like a emotional reaction to me.
She was verbally abusive prior to A also. She was not meeting his needs prior to the A also. She has been ON and OFF again since she has been posting here, and has been tit for tat. now how was that helpful of me to say? Personlly I choose to take the positive perspective of what she does, and is trying to accomplish.
because she is here, and because she is still THERE, says to me she wants on some level to make her marriage better. Her emotional incongruence, and indecisiveness is ripping her apart, as you well know. Thanks for the reaction though. Once again a F has remarked in no uncertain terms, her feelings on verbal abuse. I was verbally abusive, after the A, after our reconcil. I guess x was justified in escalating to a PA because of it. Oh wait, I was only 50% responsible. Cant take responsibility for her actions.
I think her A was emotional abuse of the worse sort. She could verbally abuse me, and honestly she did during her A, and I let it roll off. It would prick and poke here and there, but ...<shrug>. So I verbally abused her, she emotionally abused me. Which is worse? You can choose to take gender sides, you can denigrate men for their feelings on A, call it ego, or childish, but since you cannot have empathy for what it does to a man, you can at least choose sympathy, that they are both major damages.
he never unchose you, like you did him and the family with the A." the very last comment in my post, I said he has much of the blame. Just because a womans feelings are not wrong, does not mean a mans feelings are wrong. They are both entitled to their feelings. I could be wrong that he feels this way. He is probably just a spiteful pr!ck, who hates Heather, and only showed the tremendous effort and will power to work on his alcohol issue so he could reel her back in to make her miserable and abuse her.
If nothing else, I hope the men here, see the importance of having a strong frame. A woman will follow it whether its positive or negative. I see a lot of guys here trying to learn to empathize or understand a womans perspective. Make himself more attractive. I see a lot of women here trying to fix their man, so he can understand her perspective. You sure dont like it when Cemar does that.
The choice comes when you learn what it is you can do, to move in a positive direction and make the other person start feeling good, or continue to make them feel bad.
Quote: I expected to be called out on somethings in that post, but for you to say, he was 50% responsible and then to say, His verbal abuse ALONE, prior to her A, to me makes him the worst kind of offender is interesting. Seems like a emotional reaction to me.
Opinions usually are.
Quote: Thanks for the reaction though. Once again a F has remarked in no uncertain terms, her feelings on verbal abuse. I was verbally abusive, after the A, after our reconcil. I guess x was justified in escalating to a PA because of it. Oh wait, I was only 50% responsible. Cant take responsibility for her actions.
Yeah, I think verbal abuse sucks, from anyone, male or female. And I was talking about Heather, not about you. I never said Heather did not contribute to the state of her marriage. But it seems that she is the only one of the two who is willing to OWN and take responsibility for her behavior.
Quote:
I think her A was emotional abuse of the worse sort. She could verbally abuse me, and honestly she did during her A, and I let it roll off. It would prick and poke here and there, but ...<shrug>. So I verbally abused her, she emotionally abused me. Which is worse? You can choose to take gender sides, you can denigrate men for their feelings on A, call it ego, or childish, but since you cannot have empathy for what it does to a man, you can at least choose sympathy, that they are both major damages.
I don't think it is a matter of worse. And the damage done by A's are not gender specific, either. You certainly don't have to have an A to emotionally withdraw from a marriage, which to me is every bit as damaging as an A. Just my opinion, probably from an emotional base.
In any event, I think it takes two people to make a marriage, and two people to break it.
Quote: the very last comment in my post, I said he has much of the blame. Just because a womans feelings are not wrong, does not mean a mans feelings are wrong. They are both entitled to their feelings. I could be wrong that he feels this way. He is probably just a spiteful pr!ck, who hates Heather, and only showed the tremendous effort and will power to work on his alcohol issue so he could reel her back in to make her miserable and abuse her.
Unless I missed an update, I was under the impression he was still drinking. I did not say that his feelings were invalid. Didn't say they were. I am focusing on the positive with Heather in saying that... if she can, get out of limbo. Puts her in a whole different frame of mind, with a whole different perspective.
Quote: The choice comes when you learn what it is you can do, to move in a positive direction and make the other person start feeling good, or continue to make them feel bad.
"It appears you are asking me for a rationalization for adultery. Thats not going to happen. Nice try on the two choice dilemma though."
Not at all. I do believe I had a very specific NOTE right after my question that said one mistake does not justify another. My question was not a two choice dilemma at all, but simply a question about magnitude of offense. It seems many like to villify the A offender whilst hiding the offendee behind "it was only 50% their fault." Well maybe sometimes it was 75% their fault, or 90% their fault.
NOTE: I am not saying this is the case in my relationship. If you think for a minute that I am attempting to foist excessive blame on my W for my own shortcomings, you haven't been reading my posts for awhile. All I wanted to do was say that in some cases, the real blame for the marriage failing may rest more squarely on the A offendee rather than the A offender. I'm not talking about anyone specifically, just an observation.
"So Chromo, prior to your A, were you choosing not to meet your W emotional needs, that you have now taken the time and gotten the help to understand and 'compute'?"
Well, as I have stated several times, in many convos I had with my W prior to the A she consistently stated she was happy about how things were going. My failing was in not insisting that my own happiness was as important as hers in our M. So no, I don't think I was choosing not to meet her emotional needs. I was choosing not to have mine met in favor of always trying to meet hers.
"Were you intentionally killing her sex drive with the supplicating and placating, and fear?"
Intentionally? So is what you are saying that because I am an emotional retard who was being supplicating and placating (as I thought would make her love me) that I deserved the loss of affection and intimacy? That because of my own fear of intimacy I deliberately sabotaged it with my W. You know, you are right about part of that. My actions did sabotage my R, I am painfully aware of that now. But intentionally?
"Now that you know them, are you doing a perfect job of it still?"
No I am not. I am still ruled by fear. I still gravitate toward placating and supplicating because I still fear hurting her more than anything else. I still make absolutely horrible choices about what I should do daily. The responsiblity for making my M work rests squarely on my shoulders and I am down on one knee under the weight that I should have the strength to handle but don't.
But I'm trying. And I will succeed ... eventually.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Quote: No I am not. I am still ruled by fear. I still gravitate toward placating and supplicating because I still fear hurting her more than anything else. I still make absolutely horrible choices about what I should do daily.
I think there is a valid difference between caution and fear. Where before I saw you moving in fear, now I see you moving with caution. Big Dif. No one likes to hurt another. I think you are seeing your wife struggle and you have empathy for her, but, to give you much credit, you are also turning some much needed empathy onto yourself, understanding that you cannot sacrifice your own needs and happiness... for that does no one, most especially your M, any good. You've learned that the hard way, hm?
Quote: The responsiblity for making my M work rests squarely on my shoulders and I am down on one knee under the weight that I should have the strength to handle but don't.
Uh... no it doesn't. Your wife gets to carry half the load.
"you cannot sacrifice your own needs and happiness... for that does no one, most especially your M, any good. You've learned that the hard way, hm?"
Yes I have.
"Uh... no it doesn't. Your wife gets to carry half the load."
I hope she decides to. I know I can't make her. But I do worry that I am not even doing a good job carrying my half either. I know Lil, negative thoughts. Gotta ditch em.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Quote: I know Lil, negative thoughts. Gotta ditch em.
Talk is cheap, bubba. You're like the guy who says he's gonna quit drinking, but bring me another beer anyway.
I thought of another metaphor for you, chrome. What if you were teaching a class and there was a student in the front row who started heckling you? Started saying that you were stupid, an incompetent teacher, got your degree(s) from the back of a magazine, and didn't know a supernova from a supersize order of fries? Would you invite that student up to take over the class for the REST OF YOUR LIFE?
When you let glob run your thoughts, you are doing just that. Glob is not the enemy. Glob needs love and compassion just like the rest of us, but he doesn't need to be running the show.
STOP THE NEGATIVE SELF-TALK NOW.
Don't argue with the negative voices. Don't get into a debate with them. They are not from a rational place, so they cannot be persuaded to listen to reason (any more than that heckling student can). Just turn off the volume.
I have to say nice job, because of the overall tone of your post. Man you have come a long way.
My actions did sabotage my R, I am painfully aware of that now. But intentionally?
exactly. it wasnt intentional. you didnt have the proper environmental training, nor the knowledge, nor the R skills. Therefore your W (or heathers H) isnt/wasnt doing it intentionally either. so while she is 50% responsible prior to the A, lets leave A's out of it. They are huge breaches of trust, and saying yes....but, and IF.... then is not acknowledging the A is 100% the offender. Its just wanting another loan from the bank right after you just defaulted. NOPE. Sorry. Trust first. Assurance that it wont happen again first, and THEN we can get back to the 50/50 issues that existed in the R. Well if your busy engaged in the same activity that you were before your A, then how can you add LU to the offended spouse? A haver obviously havent figured it out, so the action/reactions will remain the same.
All I wanted to do was say that in some cases, the real blame for the marriage failing may rest more squarely on the A offendee rather than the A offender Negative. I have no problem with a person leaving a bad spouse. its a decision. thats not what happens in a A. I dont even have a problem with 'open' R's. I dont think they are all that healthy, but they are not breaches of trust, they have honesty, and arent abusive.
I never said I thought my W was doing things intentionally. One of my biggest problems in all of this is over-empathizing with her. I see how she is scared by what I am proposing, the kind of R I want. She doesn't know how to be intimate, any more than I do. And she would rather stay in her comfort zone of not knowing than take the plunge into this fearful place where you do have to put your heart out on a plate and hope it doesn't get smashed. Life would be so much easier if I didn't have this need inside me.
"They are huge breaches of trust, and saying yes....but, and IF.... then is not acknowledging the A is 100% the offender."
The A person is 100% the offender ... for the A. Period. Maybe I'm just projecting here, because I myself am tempted to overly blame myself for everything. So when I see what appears to me to be someone overly blaming an A person, I get rowdy. An A is not the only way someone can "unchoose" someone else. And maybe I'll get villified over this, but I also don't think that an A is the worst thing that someone can do to their partner. It is up there for sure, but I can think of worse things. NOTE: this doesn't mean an A is justified in response. The mature thing to do would be to leave the R. But mistakes can and will be made by humans.
I agree with most of the rest, although maybe I am missing some of the points you are trying to make. I still see that there are other ways of majorly (is that a word) breaching trust in a relationship other than having an A. NOTE (yet again): that doesn't mean an A is justified.
I want to talk further about this but I'm getting the feeling that the crosstalk and noise is deafening the main issue, and that is helping Heather with her situation. Sorry if this discussion has gone too far afield
I know that this issue is also a thorn to you BF, and I'm sorry if I twisted that thorn thoughtlessly. Peace, my brother.
Your friend, Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
An A is not the only way someone can "unchoose" someone else.
true. the point of my comment was sharing his feeling, on her comments about choosing. she has one, he has one too. the feelings are not wrong, but we need action to change them.
but I can think of worse things. Im curious what that is. I could deal with anything else x threw at me, except this. killing a family member, would probably be up there. I know now I cant, know exactly what I will do in the future.
this issue is also a thorn to you BF, and I'm sorry if I twisted that thorn thoughtlessly everyone knows what I think about A's. Im very understanding and tolerant of those who want to fix it and move on though. Im not very tolerant of limbo land, internal indecision, no matter what shape it takes. feelings are great. feel them, enjoy them, make note of whats causing the bad ones, but dont let them run you.
but I'm getting the feeling that the crosstalk and noise is deafening the main issue ditto.
