I actually paid for three sessions and have two left. But I'd have to pick just one thing to discuss because our situation is so multi faceted that even with going to counseling once a week, I still have new stuff to talk about every single time, lol. Knowing my situation, what would you say are the most critical issues in my R?
Both of you being P/A. Escalating instead of neutralizing, or deescalating the sitch, in response to him being a d!ck. perspective control. decision making instead of feeling=deciding, new feeling=new decision. Its very wastful of your energy and emotional resources, addicitve (literally, the emotional self juicing needs more extreme reactions, to get a 'fix') and causes life to live you, instead of you living life.
You know what your 'issues' are right now Heather. Working on those is not the solution. Its not the 'weekly new item' from you two playing wack a mole, with each other that you need to focus on.
Your H has made himself completely emotionally unavailable to you, because he gets hurt when he does. the most recent time I can remember he was vulnerable, that you have related, was when he came home from out of town, and you gave him the choice to ride in your truck, or take a cab. If I had choosen to never ride in your truck, I would now have added to that, never ask for a ride again, truck or not. he will continue to not ask you for anything, untill it comes to handing him a pen from the other side of the table. Has he ever asked you for sex since the A? Its not cause he doesnt want it.
All the other 'issues' are irrelevant, untill 1) you can feel a emotional connection with him again. 2) he feels safe enough to allow this. That is the vicious cycle I see going on. He doesnt ask you for anything, this makes you feel ignored, you ask him for stuff, in various ways, to reconnect and he rebuffs you, because he gets nothing from you he needs, and doesnt ask you for anything either. Thats about as differentiated as a person can get. I dont approve of it, or think its healty.
He isnt going to go first. IMO. what are you going to do?
because I haven't always behaved like such a great person, i.e. with the one night stands I had in high school forgive yourself. self criticism is internally incongruent. You did it. you hopefully see why YOU did it, not why someone forced you too, and know you wont choose that again. because its your decision. Im gonna be real blunt.
Your one night stands and your needing H's approval and the A, is a issue you have of needing outside validation. thats normal, we all have it on some level, but when its destructive to your life, it needs to be handled. itll pop up again in the next R. My one night stands, were about seeing how much power and control I had and testing my skills. Its probably why I played relational leapfrog (nopism) testing my 'value'. (I dont believe playing this leapfrog is possible from a purly logical level, in a M. we said vows after all. reality seems to differ with me. ) Both of them are from insecurity. They are both needs for validation. My checking for my 'value', was destructive to my life and happiness.
This is what he is unconciously trying to force you to get. validate yourself. Yes he is being a real Ahole about it. He needs to validate you. Yes I know your LB is dry from the past 2 years.
Perhaps eventually H would get over resenting me for one-upping his 'authority' on the matter If Im correct, any bluster about you ignoring his authority about this is a facade. He says you do what you want. I think he wants to see you do what you want, in a positive way for the R.
H told me last time that if I pushed the issue, he would never sleep in the same bed as me again, period Your there. you have to calibrate. This comment gives me pause on my previous opinion, but only you will know if he is talking about you pushing it on a verbal level or with demands or anger.
I am still considering it as a last resort option before separation. if its done in a loving detached manner, and not a escalation of wills, I understand your feeling on this.
Once again, H does not 'choose me'. I force my way back, much like I did when he tried to kick me out. MO. he never unchose you, like you did him and the family with the A. You feel you forced your way back, but if he really wanted to kick you out, you would be out. it was just testing behavior to see if its what you really wanted after unchoosing him.
Im curious. does he ever say things like we should seperate then, or I want a D, etc? I really understand, your feelings heather. Your M is a mess. It is not emotionally satisfying to you. Seeing you relate how you feel about sleeping on the couch, being a outcast makes many of us sad/hurt for you. If you move out, you really will be an outcast, and to put it simplistically, his incorrect frame will win. (actually everyone will have lost)
Have you ever thought of going to your bed, during the night like your kids do? If he asks just say 'I want to be with my family'. That will not only be honest, but will probably be really scary for you, as it leaves you wide open to rejection, that you mentioned before, not wanting to give him that ability.
I still think you have the personality, the force of will, to be able to turn it around, if you can focus on what you want, instead of what you dont want. This is a crucial difference. do you see it? your there because of your kids and because you choose to be. Those are really positive reasons. I respect you for that. Tell you H that. maybe he will too, a little.
If you have any desire for your M to work, you will have to learn perspective control. Being able to see positives, finding reasons that tell you that your H does care for you. without that ability, you are going to bitterly continue in your IF he... then. and yes....buts, that show the incongruence between your feeling and your thoughts right now. Your ripping yourself apart. You can blame him, which he does have much since it is a R dynamic, or you can begin to take control over you. Finally.
"he never unchose you, like you did him and the family with the A."
If someone chooses not to at least try to meet the physical and emotional needs of their spouse, after promising to do so in their marriage vows, what is the difference between that and an A?
I'm not targeting this on you BF (god knows your sitch is quite a bit different), it is just a question I have had and never really been able to answer, and your comment just brought it to mind. NOTE: I am not saying that an affair is the acceptable result of neglect, one mistake doesn't logically imply that another should be made.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Quote: "he never unchose you, like you did him and the family with the A."
I don't agree with this at all. If you read the history, he 'unchose' her over and over and over again. He just didn't leave her. His verbal abuse ALONE, prior to her A, to me makes him the worst kind of offender.
And again, both you and her H seem to completely disregard that up until the second Heather decided to have the A, he was 50% responsible for getting the marriage to a state where she would even CONSIDER an affair.
Marriage is not a test of "let's just pile as much of my sh!t and personal insecurity onto my partner as I possibly can... let's see how much of it they are willing to carry ... after all, s/he said they love me... now let's see him/her prove it."
Heather.
No one here is going to tell you to get out. All the "gosh, I just do see how you can live like that," quotes are not going to make your decision to either stay or go any easier.
Make up your mind, set your course and follow it. THEN ask for advice. Hanging out in limbo, neither in nor out of your marriage, is the worst kind of torture.
I have to agree with Corri and Chrome on this one. He has "unchosen" her even if they technically live under the same roof. He is very abusive. They might as well be separated and frankly, and I will come right out and say I think Heather, and possibly her son, would be better off away from him. But like you said Corri, it's only her decision to make. As far as making a decision and THEN asking for advice, I won't go that far, because the whole thing is a process and reaching that decision is often very painful, as you know. But yes, hanging out in limbo, is torturous.
Quote: As far as making a decision and THEN asking for advice, I won't go that far, because the whole thing is a process and reaching that decision is often very painful, as you know.
Oh my God, yes. I did not communicate what I meant clearly. Perhaps those who have hit the edge can help me explain what I mean. Balto is going through this right now... Karen went through it once... GEL went through it. I know there are others. You went through it as well.
It's the 'sh!t or get off the pot' moment. And when you hit it, it's a solitary experience. The questions you ask before you hit that moment are all geared towards rationalization, kwis? Once you decide, the type of questions you ask are different.
If I am coming across as judgmental, that is not my intent, and I apologize. It is indeed scarey and confusing. That fear and confusion can keep you in limbo for years, and many hear can attest to that fact. But... limbo wreaks havoc on an you, your kids and your M.
Oh, god, I'm rhambling... sorry. Heather, I hope I didn't come across harsh. Limbo, to me, is the just the absolute worst... far worse than he!!, for at least then, you know what you are dealing with.
"Limbo, to me, is the just the absolute worst... far worse than he!!"
MEGA FCUKING DITTOS ON THAT!!!!!!
Sorry, Sheriff Chromie got a little excited. I'll make sure he stays in cage where he belongs.
And big dittos on what you said earlier about marriage NOT being a test to see how far one can be pushed and still remain faithful. Yes, an A is an awful thing. But the abuse and neglect that sometimes set up the conditions for an A can be just as bad, if not worse.
Heather, I haven't had my moment of utter clarity yet either. I feel like I am getting close, and that feeling of getting near the edge is almost more terrifying than not knowing. But you know, as bad as weeks of crying, fighting, anger, and all that is, it is still better than hearing my W say (as she did a few months ago and again recently) "I don't know if I will ever be able to be affectionate or intimate with you." And for you not being able to share the marriage bed or garner minimal respect. We're both in limbo now, fighting for our emotional survival. But with a huge dose of strength and our last breath, we'll make it. OK, I'll stop being so melodramatic now. Somebody kick me and tell me to shut-up.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Chrome, FWIW, about 5 years ago Mrs GGB said pretty much that she was through with being intimate and that I'd have to get used to it. I then hung in limbo for maybe 3 years with the occasional nookie crumb thrown to me (got the last two kids from those crumbs) when she was feeling enough in the mood (a half dozen times a year or so). It was living Hell. Things, while not perfect, are much much better now; we still are going through droughts that last a few weeks now and again (seems like more than not), but at least we can talk about it and doing so will usually getus back on track at least for a few days.
Anyway, I'm only saying this to show that it is possible to pull yourselves back from the edge of the precipice. If I can do it, I know you can too. The key, at least Ive found it to be so, is intimate communication. I think in light of your recent posts, you are also finding that, although perhaps not recognizing it yet. The communication I am talking about is nothing held back, but still presented in a loving way (this is not the forum for attacks on your mate's character or criticisms of her, rather a way to let out your thoughts and feelings). As simple as it sounds, both MrsGGB and I have found it to be perhaps the most difficult thing we've tried to do. Chromedome, if you haven't already done it, you ought to take MrsChrome and yourself to a WWME weekend. I know you aren't big on the religious side, so ignore that part of it. The point is they do give you some tools that will help with intimate communications. The dialog process (which is what they call it) does feel a little stilted and corny, but it does seem to work. Basically, they give you a discussion topic that generally presents a situation and asks you how it makes you feel, then you write a 10 minute love letter to each other describing those feelings, then you exchange letters, and then discuss the feelings, working back and forth until your partner has a good feel for what you were feeling. Like I said, it looks and feels a bit corny, but it does work.
Now if I could just get MrsGGB back to doing the dialogs. They made her feel uncomfortable; she's still very protective of her inner thoughts and feelings.
Thanks for the empathy GGB. I do have hope that we can get to a better place. It sounds like you and I are more similar than I thought before. The whole "protective of inner thoughts and feelings" is dead on.
I do plan on doing a WWME weekend or Retroaiville (sp?) soon, perhaps sometime after the nursing is over so it can be just me and her. I'm not concerned about corny, I'm about as corny as they come. I have tried to spare you all my corny sense of humor as much as possible. I am also not afraid of religious stuff. I go to church regularly, and am a believer. I just get really fed up with the rampant hypocracy in the church today, those people who call themselves christians but don't have an ounce of love in them for their fellow man or woman unless they think and act exactly the same. I'd better stop.
I have told my W several times that I think our biggest problem is poor communication. I'm trying to fix that now, but any help I can get is welcome.
Chrome
"Recollect me darlin, raise me to your lips, two undernourished egos, four rotating hips"
Yup, yup, yup. I think poor intimate communication is at the root of the problems for the majority of the folks here.
FWIW, I do see a lot of me reflected in your posts. Both MrsGGB and I are chronic passive-aggressive confrontation avoiders, so a lot of crap gets swept under the carpet instead of putting it out in the open and discussing it.
Yeah, get past the nursing first. You want the weekend totally to yourselves with no distractions. Leave the kids with the inlaws and avoid the temptation to call in checking up on them, they raised your W after all, so I'm sure they are quite capable. Then again, if your W is anything like MrsGGB, she'll have to call in a couple times a day anyway
Chrome, you might go to the wwme website for some idea of their method. They've got a question of the day and reminder materials that discuss the dialog technique in detail at http://www.wwme.org/already.html
One thing I found when we went to the weekend was that our marriage was a lot stronger than I had previously thought it was. I had been considering Retr@v*(&$lle or however it is spelled, but went to WWME because MrsGGB's best friend had been and recommended it to MrsGGB (otherwise she would not have gone). Turns out the WWME was just right for us.
reality seems to differ with me. 
) 