Of course he was weak in one respect. Nothing's black and white. We all have our strengths and weaknesses.
All I know is that what my W sees as weakness (my dependence on her), I see as strength. I truly believe it takes strength to leave yourself vulnerable to another person.
Until I met my W, I sucked in all of my feelings. I had to be "strong" for my brother and sister after my mother's death. I couldn't show them how much I was hurting. Yeah, that took a certain kind of strength.
But when I met W, I wanted to be intimate with her. That meant exposing myself with the possibility that she would reject my weakness. I made myself vulnerable to her. She accepted that, and I loved her all the more.
Love entails vulnerability, and I say it again, you have to have a certain amount of strength and of course confidence in another person to be able to bare your soul to them.
It may seem like I'm bearing my soul to this BB, but it's not the same. You, or anyone else could tear right into me, but it doesn't matter. We've never even met. If you thought I was the biggest a**hole on earth, it wouldn't matter.
What my W thinks matters.
What you think of your H matters to him.
The fact that you're expressing your admiration of how he's handling all of this is very important to him.
It's said that self-esteem comes from within. Nice sentiment, but we're social creatures, and especially when we're in love, we need the love to be requited.
Sounds to me like you've turned the corner too, Matilda. And your H is right behind you.
Interesting what you say about strength and vulnerability and intimacy. I thought I was being "strong" in the past by NOT letting myself be too vulnerable with H -- all due to protecting myself from being hurt like I was hurt in my childhood.
So, because I was "strong" in the past with H and protected my vulnerability, that led to a certain lack of intimacy with H which H craved with me, which led him into A, which ended up with me being unimaginably hurt!! How ironic. Damn, I think I'm the stupid one .
I think there were times I also saw H's dependence on me as being weak. "Please don't need me so much. Please don't expect so much." In actuallity, he was being strong by being so vulnerable with me!! I think I let him down terribly in many respects, Andy. I need to let him know that.
I wouldn't go as far as shifting the blame from him to you, Matilda. Yeah, perhaps things got twisted around, but not out of your stupidity, or anyone elses.
I guess the whole blame issue is a bunch of krap.
That's what I think your H needs to know (and believe).
No, not shifting the blame. H gets all the blame for the A. I, however, need to take some responsiblity for the state our M was in -- is all I meant.
It just seemed pretty ironic that holding back to try to keep from being hurt eventually ended up causing me more pain that I could have ever imagined.
Im still keeping up with you and your situation. You are a remarkable woman. The world needs more people like yourself. I have been reading this scripture quite often here of late, and it helps me to cope whenever I get to feeling down. Maybe you can find some comfort in it also.
For it is a credit to you if, being aware of God, you endure pain while suffering unjustly. If you endure when you are beaten for doing wrong, what credit is that? But if you endure when you do right and suffer for it, you have God's approval. For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you should follow in his steps. "He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.: When he was abused, he did not return abuse; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he entrusted himself to the one who judges justly." He himself bore our sins in his body on the cross, so that, free from sins, we might live for righteousness, by his wounds you have been healed. For you were going astray like sheep, but now you have returned to the shepherd and guardian of your souls.
I've been going through all the last week or so worth of posting to this message as well as Andy and Pfrog and Tressa and Ultreya....and a few others.....since I don't have time to reply to all (sorry guys!) I just want to say this as a 'shotgun blast' to everyone....
It sure is a tough balancing act isn't it?
One of the BIG reasons my H and A was he said that he felt like I didn't need him.
This really confuses me....I am not sure how he can believe this when he said to C once in a session that all I ever said to him for the first part of that year he was gone was tell him how tough it was here for me and how I was so alone and so busy and so tired and so busy with the kids and the dogs and the new job and the new unpacked house and...blah blah blah....I admit I was pretty rough on him from Sep to Dec, but I also remember telling him how much I needed him, how much I loved him and would "wait forever" for him because he was "worth the wait". I guess he forgot those things....it's also confusing to me because I don't remember my 'complaining' being all that bad in the beginning-and he started A less than 60 days gone. Go figure. I think he left the marriage a LONG time before he left for the tour.
So how does this equate to him thinking I didn't need him? No idea.....and I have come to the realization that I never will know.
I feel that I was too needy, that I was too open and 'sharing' with him on an emotional level. He felt I didn't need him (again, I totally do not understand this), which led to him thinking I did not want him, which led to him thinking I wanted "someone else" (a fantasy he made up in his own mind to justify is own A).....He also told me he figured I was cheating on him....so he cheated on me.
So then (later-into the recon phase) I went dark. So did he, even more so than usual-let's just say he's not a very communicative guy. (he's the one with the favorite phrase of "I don't know")
Darkness didn't work. It made it worse. I sometimes still fall into this trap of being too dark-apparently he does not like the 'mystery L' I had become. Every time I would not express my opinion, every time I would hold my tongue, every time I didn't have anything to say-he always responded negatively (verbally) - to him it was like I didn't care.
Gray seems to be a better way. (hey, it rhymes!)
I still have not perfected it. I still slip. Most days I still don't have a ____ clue as to what or who I am gonna be that day....quiet reserved L, happy gray sort of wishy washy L, or opinionated and occasionally boisterous L....
It is such a delicate balancing act.
Wasn't there something about PERCEPTIONS or something.....??? In some other post??? Just the other day I thought he was being distant. I asked him everything was OK and if there was something on his mind. He said NO. I asked if I were imagining it that he was distant and closed off to me-or what....he said there was nothing wrong with him. I let it drop. He didn't expect me to. For once, I was able to keep my big yap shut when I should have. (ok, so maybe it's actually happened 2-3 times).
And now I seem to be rambling...I did have a point tho...which brings me back to the balancing act. How to be who....I think it can't be all one way or the other, perhaps I (we) need to learn when to be who? I expect this is to be tempered or even decided by how out PMA is as well...huh....
L p.s. Matty-I too often wonder who this man I call my H really is, and no, I do not love him the same way I used to either. It is sad but at the same time OK because that other way was WAY WAY to naively...almost like I built him into some perfect man and that's not fair to him, so in that respect, it's good that I don't love him like that anymore....does this make sense? It never will be the same...but again, is that such a bad thing?
Matilda. Just read your post on my thread. Thanks for asking about me. I caught up on your thread last night and today. Sounds like you are doing VERY VERY GOOD these days! You sound like you have made wonderful progress and I am really happy for you!! I totally agree with you when you say that your H is responsible for the A. I,at the very beginning wanted to blame myself for H cheating but he was quick to tell me it was not my fault. I do however have to assume some responsibility for the condition of our marriage. People screw up - sometimes they screw up so badly that the marriage can't survive. But I believe in my heart that if your love and your bond is strong,you can with hard work,fix the problems and have a strong and happy relationship. Our H's screwed up BIG TIME but that doesn't mean they love us any less - it shows us that they are human and they can mess up but it also shows us that some men can change and are capable of doing what ever it takes to make things better. I know there are men out there who cannot remain faithful,they continue to cheat. These men should have never married to start with. I don't believe they just made a "mistake" -but they are in a far different catagory than our H's I am happy to say! Anyway,it sounds like you are really making great strides in the right direction! You have come a long way and I think you are an amazing lady!!!! Now,you asked about me..... things are still going wonderfully well!! We are happy and still acting like "newly weds" at times !! We haven't had another talk since that last one I told you about but I really haven't needed to. Every so often the thought of the XOW comes to mind and every so often I do think about what happened but the tears don't come any more I am happy to say. It comes to mind,I acknowledge that it happened and I tell myself it has been over for a long time and things are so good now that it no longer has the power to cause me pain. I find that it doesn't cause the pain like it used to. I had a brief "down" moment last week end but I quickly talked myself into a happy frame of mind. What happened was..... our kids gave us tickets to go to Tunica to see the Righteous Brothers (they sing "our song" and we have always loved their music). We decided to spend the night at the casino's hotel. When we got there and entered our room all of a sudden I got this memory of him spending a week end with that B in a casino hotel in Biloxi. I really can't explain why it came to me - all I know is for some reason that triggered the memory of the A. It could be that even though we have stayed in hotels since the A,we had never stayed in a casino hotel and the time he stayed in that casino with her was the only time he took her to a hotel. Who can really explain how the mind works! My H noticed that I had gotten a little quiet and asked me if I was feeling ok. It hit me that I was being stupid to allow thoughts of that B to interfere with my time with my H! I told my self that we were there to have a good time together and enjoy ourselves and thinking about an old hurt was just going to bring us both down and spoil eveything. I just hugged my H real tight and told him that I loved him and that i was so happy that we had the chance to get away together. He hugged me back and told me that he had really been looking forward to getting away with me again! I immediately blocked out the image of the B and the image of them being together. We had some FUN in the room and then showered and went out for a nice dinner! The show was fantastic and when they sang "our song",my H put his arm around me and pulled me closer to him and when I looked up at him,the look he gave me showed me that he loved me and was happy to be with me (if we'd been alone I would have jumped his bones right then and there !!)!! I am really trying hard to NOT think about the up coming golf trip close to where the B lives. I have managed so far to not think but it is getting closer (he leaves the 14th of this month). I feel in my heart that I can trust him and I believe him when he says he has no reason to even go into the town where she lives and hangs out. He has promised me that he wouldn't even be tempted to go to that club where he met her. Last year when he went they stayed in the same place they did the year he met her. Some of the guys wanted to go to the club but he told them he didn't want to and swears he didn't. I have talked to some of the guys I know and they told me that my H either stayed in the room and played cards with some other guys or he went to the casino where they were staying and gambled some. He told me last year that he knew how badly he had hurt me and there was no way he was going to do anything to hurt me again or jepordize the progress we had made. I know he will do what he tells me. I just hate the thought of him being anywhere near where the B lives. What is wrong with me? It is better than last year. Last year I was sick to my stomach thinking about his being where he was and I was struggling to try and trust him. This year I know in my heart that I can trust him but the closer it gets to the time he'll be leaving,the more "down" I seem to be getting! Am I nuts or what? I really don't want to have to bring this up with my H. I did bring it up during our last talk. He told me that he can't take that feeling away. He can reassure me that he loves me,he can reassure me that he will not go anywhere she might me, and he can reassure me that he can be trusted but I have to decide if I believe in him or not. I have to either let these feelings bring me down or I have to trust and believe in him with all my heart and my mind. I guess it sound stupid but my heart is telling me to trust and my mind is trying to raise doubts !! Any advice as to how to stop this battle in my head? Maybe I don't trust him as much as I think I do -is that possible? I know that I am happy and I know that I have not regretted once that I forgave my H!! I know things are better and I know that I am feeling better about things. When I was with him on trips there it didn't bother me so this has made me think I'm crazy!! Well,I have written a book so I'll stop now. If you can tell me anything to help stop thses nutty thoughts I am all ears!! pfroglady
That balancing act that you're talking about, I go through that every day, too. I'm getting pretty tired of it. I've decided I'm gonna figure out just who exactly I am, who the real ME is, and then just be me. If H doesn't like it, well, I guess that his problem. However, I think he will like it, cuz I think the REAL me is a much more affectionate and caring person that he's seen in the past.
I agree with you that in some ways it is good that things are different and will never be the same. H is also one of those "I don't know" kinda guys, but he's putting forth a real effort to put his feelings into words nowadays. That's good. I am much move loving and affectionate with H. That's good.
But there is something way deep inside, I'm not even sure I can put it into words, that has changed -- and I know that is not good. Whatever it is, I feel a tremendous sadness to have lost that. Whatever it is, I KNOW it will never come back, and that is sad. I wish I knew how to express what I'm feeling a little better. Maybe if I really contemplated it I could, but right now I'm trying to focus only on the positive.
I also wanted to tell you from your above reply about your experiences of the past that I can really understand now how hard it is for you to get passed your H's betrayal. When people have been through what we've been through it just makes it a 1000 x's harder to learn to forgive and trust again. I think I've finally turned a corner and am well on my way, but I know I will never trust him the way I used to. No matter what he does, how trustworthy he is, I know there will always be a little voice inside saying "be careful." H knows it, too. It kills him to realize that he's put both of us in this position, but he does realize that he did it and he's willing to live with those consequences. Just so very sad, and so very unnecessary.
I hope things are getting better for you. We all desire to live happy, contented lives.
Well, there you are , Pfroglady. I've missed you. Thought you didn't love me anymore
It's so good to hear that things continue to go well with you. I can practically "hear" the happiness in your post.
As for the trust issue, I kinda touched on that in my reply above to Me2. Unfortunately, I don't think we can ever attain the level of trust for our H's that they once enjoyed. I do think that we can get to the point where we trust them enough to have peace again in our hearts, but it will never be like it was before. I think that's just human nature. Once the trust is broken it can be repaired, but there will always be a scar there reminding us. Unfortunately, this is a legacy of adultry that most people don't consider when they enter into it. I know this is a difficult burden to bear for my H. He never thought about what it would feel like to not be trusted. He likens it to being in prison - a prison of his own making he readily admits.
We talked a little while back about jealousy. I think this feeling is the first cousin to mistrust. You say you feel jealous about other women you H comes in contact with at the club, etc. That's borne out of mistrust. I've coveted my lack of jealosy all these years. It's wonderful to not feel jealous. It's wonderful to trust someone so completely that you don't feel jealousy. I think my H equated lack of jealousy with lack of love and caring. In the world he grew up in all the women were extremely jealous and it thought it came from deep love. He chose to view my lack of jealousy as not loving him. That was his perception. To him, his lack of any jealous feelings for the OW was one of the reasons he knew he didn't love her. And conversely, his extremely jealous feelings at the thought of me being with someone else made him realize just how much he loved me. Crazy how two people can view the same emotion in such different ways.
You think maybe you haven't forgiven your H as much as you thought cuz you have these feelings of mistrust? No, I don't think so. Forgiveness just means you've decided not to hold the "account open" so-to-speak, or hold the A over your H's head in the future. You've decided to let go of the anger and resentment in order to build a happy future with H. It doesn't mean that the hurt will magically go away or that you will completely and totally trust him again.
I'll be thinking about you around the 14th -- keep you in my prayers. And, of course, please drop by here and discuss anything you need to. The best thing is that you know in your heart your H will never hurt you like that again. Just keep focusing on that while he's gone (and make sure you can contact him at any time day or night .
I've got my own D-day coming up on the 10th. Last year on that date H was out of town and OW was planning to spend the night in his hotel room. He called me rather early in the evening to say good night cuz he was going to "get to bed early", had a long day the next day. (uh-oh, I'm feeling my blood pressure rising ) I called him back later in the evening just to say ILY, miss you, thinking about you, etc. (I rarely called him when he was away cuz when he called me it was on the company). Come to find out much later that the OW was there with him. She went into the other room and closed the door while he was talking to me, but I'll be she was listening at the door, cuz when he hung up and went into the other room she was getting ready to leave, said, "I can't do this anymore. I'm leaving." H said, "Fine, I think that's for the best." Told me she got really mad then cuz she expected him to beg her to stay. Told him, "I heard you tell your W you love her." Him, "Yeah, I've never said I didn't love her. I thought she didn't love me." To wit she replied, "Then what are you doing here with me." Him, "I really don't know, but I do know I want you to leave now."
Don't know why I feel like I need to go over what was said and done. I guess in a way it makes me feel a little better knowing I won that battle without even knowing I was fighting it. But just knowing about the date and what happened a year ago makes it hard to get through it, so I know how you'll be feeling on the 14th.
You know, even though I KNOW there is no possible way H would ever go back to the OW, something he said one time kinda stuck with me and might be the reason I would never feel comfortable with him being anywhere near her no matter what. After the above occasion where I called him at hotel, he told her it was over. However, they kept in contact via phone and email -- mostly business, but she would insinuate some personal stuff to try and get him to feel sorry for her. Around the 1st of June last year, H and I went to Las Vegas for the weekend. We had a really great time (hot time). The OW had called him the week before we left and he told her what our plans were. Apparently she got really angry, hurt, etc, said, "So, you're going on a romantic getaway with your W?" H said, "Yes, and I'm really looking forward to it." He said he didn't call her when he got back, and was hoping she wouldn't contact him, but she did. She asked him how the weekend was and he replied "Had a fantastic time." Got her crying apparently .
Towards the end of June he went to Florida for a convention for 5 days. I was supposed to go, but motherly duties kept me home. Well, guess who was there. And, yes, they got together a couple of times . I asked him why? If you knew it was over and wanted it to be over in May, and hadn't been with her since that time, why in the world would you do it again? He told me -- and this is the part that kind of haunts me -- that since he'd already done it with her it didn't matter if he did it again!! See, his thinking was that the A was one thing -- no matter how many times he was with her. He was pretty surprised to find out that I see each time he was with her as a separate betrayal!! So I guess sometimes I let myself think that if he were ever to be in a situation with her again where it would be easy, maybe he would have that same mindset -- "The damage is already done. What harm can one more time be?"
I know that is crazy thinking. Even the first night that H dropped the bomb on me he told me that even if I kicked him out right then and there and filed for D, he'd never go "back there" again. I know just the thought of her makes his sick. He asked me last month to not even mention her name again. He told me he hates her cuz of all the stuff we've found out since then. But there's just that little part of me that wonders, after all, "what harm could one more time be?"
Anyway, just have H keep in contact with you. Tell him you might need a little extra reassurance while he's gone. He'll gladly give it to you. He's just gotta be so darned happy that he married such a terrific woman.
![[Eek!]](images/icons/shocked.gif){kind=icon}
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I totally agree with you when you say that your H is responsible for the A. I,at the very beginning wanted to blame myself for H cheating but he was quick to tell me it was not my fault. I do however have to assume some responsibility for the condition of our marriage. People screw up - sometimes they screw up so badly that the marriage can't survive. But I believe in my heart that if your love and your bond is strong,you can with hard work,fix the problems and have a strong and happy relationship. Our H's screwed up BIG TIME but that doesn't mean they love us any less - it shows us that they are human and they can mess up but it also shows us that some men can change and are capable of doing what ever it takes to make things better. I know there are men out there who cannot remain faithful,they continue to cheat. These men should have never married to start with. I don't believe they just made a "mistake" -but they are in a far different catagory than our H's I am happy to say! Anyway,it sounds like you are really making great strides in the right direction! You have come a long way and I think you are an amazing lady!!!!![[Wink]](images/icons/wink.gif){kind=icon}
!! We haven't had another talk since that last one I told you about but I really haven't needed to. Every so often the thought of the XOW comes to mind and every so often I do think about what happened but the tears don't come any more I am happy to say. It comes to mind,I acknowledge that it happened and I tell myself it has been over for a long time and things are so good now that it no longer has the power to cause me pain. I find that it doesn't cause the pain like it used to. I had a brief "down" moment last week end but I quickly talked myself into a happy frame of mind. What happened was..... our kids gave us tickets to go to Tunica to see the Righteous Brothers (they sing "our song" and we have always loved their music). We decided to spend the night at the casino's hotel. When we got there and entered our room all of a sudden I got this memory of him spending a week end with that B in a casino hotel in Biloxi. I really can't explain why it came to me - all I know is for some reason that triggered the memory of the A. It could be that even though we have stayed in hotels since the A,we had never stayed in a casino hotel and the time he stayed in that casino with her was the only time he took her to a hotel. Who can really explain how the mind works! My H noticed that I had gotten a little quiet and asked me if I was feeling ok. It hit me that I was being stupid to allow thoughts of that B to interfere with my time with my H! I told my self that we were there to have a good time together and enjoy ourselves and thinking about an old hurt was just going to bring us both down and spoil eveything. I just hugged my H real tight and told him that I loved him and that i was so happy that we had the chance to get away together. He hugged me back and told me that he had really been looking forward to getting away with me again! I immediately blocked out the image of the B and the image of them being together. We had some FUN in the room ![[Big Grin]](images/icons/grin.gif){kind=icon}
!!)!! I am really trying hard to NOT think about the up coming golf trip close to where the B lives. I have managed so far to not think but it is getting closer (he leaves the 14th of this month). I feel in my heart that I can trust him and I believe him when he says he has no reason to even go into the town where she lives and hangs out. He has promised me that he wouldn't even be tempted to go to that club where he met her. Last year when he went they stayed in the same place they did the year he met her. Some of the guys wanted to go to the club but he told them he didn't want to and swears he didn't. I have talked to some of the guys I know and they told me that my H either stayed in the room and played cards with some other guys or he went to the casino where they were staying and gambled some. He told me last year that he knew how badly he had hurt me and there was no way he was going to do anything to hurt me again or jepordize the progress we had made. I know he will do what he tells me. I just hate the thought of him being anywhere near where the B lives. What is wrong with me? It is better than last year. Last year I was sick to my stomach thinking about his being where he was and I was struggling to try and trust him. This year I know in my heart that I can trust him but the closer it gets to the time he'll be leaving,the more "down" I seem to be getting! Am I nuts or what? I really don't want to have to bring this up with my H. I did bring it up during our last talk. He told me that he can't take that feeling away. He can reassure me that he loves me,he can reassure me that he will not go anywhere she might me, and he can reassure me that he can be trusted but I have to decide if I believe in him or not. I have to either let these feelings bring me down or I have to trust and believe in him with all my heart and my mind. I guess it sound stupid but my heart is telling me to trust and my mind is trying to raise doubts ![[Razz]](images/icons/tongue.gif){kind=icon}
so I'll stop now. If you can tell me anything to help stop thses nutty thoughts I am all ears!!![[Mad]](images/icons/mad.gif){kind=icon}
) I called him back later in the evening just to say ILY, miss you, thinking about you, etc. (I rarely called him when he was away cuz when he called me it was on the company). Come to find out much later that the OW was there with him. She went into the other room and closed the door while he was talking to me, but I'll be she was listening at the door, cuz when he hung up and went into the other room she was getting ready to leave, said, "I can't do this anymore. I'm leaving." H said, "Fine, I think that's for the best." Told me she got really mad then cuz she expected him to beg her to stay. Told him, "I heard you tell your W you love her." Him, "Yeah, I've never said I didn't love her. I thought she didn't love me." To wit she replied, "Then what are you doing here with me." Him, "I really don't know, but I do know I want you to leave now." ![[Frown]](images/icons/frown.gif){kind=icon}
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