Thank you both for chiming in. Both of you seem to take the same perspective, one that seems to fit for my W. She IS VERY independent, even before all this and I KNOW anything I say, even if she didn't express this feeling, would make her think "oh, there he goes again, keeping tabs on me, watching every drink I have." That's how she always reacts. Not that I'm living my life based on her reactions, but in this case, since speaking up is only really to encourage her, i.e. get a reaction, then I guess I want to consider what that reaction will likely be. The last thing I want to do is somehow affect change in the opposite direction. With any luck at all, I couldn't do that anyway.
As far as her thinking it's a problem, well, she's admitted that she thinks she should cut back some and has even gone so far as to admit to self-medicating, although that's not the exact words she used. In short, she's admitted a dependence on alcohol but I think, as you said UD about your H, she may not be physically dependant on it.
I also think I may have mis-posted or have given the wrong impression. I KNOW a lot about the effects of alcohol and alcoholics on the family dynamic, etc. Where I fall short is actually having any PERSOAL knowledge of what it feels like, why it seems good to do, etc. I understand it in a clinical sense, but not on the level of personal experience. I am not discounting alanon's potential benefits to me but right now it's not really a route I want to take...not just yet.
Like I said, this 3 days, while hardly a drop in the bucket in terms of our life together, is HUGE simply because it represents HER making the decision on her own to cut back, or in the case of last night, not drink at all, a first so far as I know since we've been together. One thing that has changed dramatically since all this relationship stuff began is that I 100% stopped being her daddy in that respect. I stopped bugging her about her drinking. Really, I just stopped noticing it. I can say that since I did that, she has dropped all signs of hiding anything (i.e. doesn't try to say she's had less than she has on the rare occasion it came up) and there have been stretches where she drank less than she did before, but nothing like this. Ever since I stopped making it an issue, I think there has been a marked improvement, maybe even paving the way for her to feel "unpressured" enough (she HATES to feel pressured into things) to make this decision on her own. I think if I had been there, all along, either pressuring her to cut back or stop, or making my little passive/aggressive comments, she would NOT have gotten to this point because it would have seemed like something I wanted/pushed for NOT something she wanted.
I am not jumping for joy so much as impressed that she either would or COULD take this step. I don't know how long it will last, nor do I know the motivation, but from where I sit, it is a baby step in the right direction.
I think I will watch and wait a bit more. Actually, OT and you ladies all said that leaving her alone is a viable option or at least not really saying much if I did say something).
I think if I am honest with you I AM feeling "see I told ya so" about this and probably am looking for her to validate my long standing feelings about her drinking by telling me that she knows I was right and is making this change for me. That is silly at best, downright pathetic at worst. I KNOW I want her to be making this change for her and as such, she does not need to talk to me about it, not attribute it to my "pressure". I don't need her to include me in this unless she wants my help in some way.
I can wait, or just let it pass without comment altogether. She WILL mention it sooner or later, this I know.
GH
P.S. Now, can't we get back to wondering why I haven't had $ex in 8 months, lol?
Wow, this is EXACTLY how my W expresses her feelings on the subject. The sad part is that the things she says COULD be either the denial of a true alcoholic OR the honest truth...or somewhere between.
My W grew up in London and all through her late teen years, and into her twenties, all her friends were European of some sort. Having hung around with her and her friends in college, I can say that they ALL, every last one of them, drink like my W, which is to have a few glasses of wine every night, starting with dinner and maybe one or two later on in the evening. She has ALWAYS said that having her wine is no big deal and it's just how she "grew" up. She say's it's cultural (which I have been vicariously blasted for) but in terms of the friends she has had since I have known her, there is SOMETHING to be said for all of them doing the same thing, and all of their friends who come to visit from France, Germany, etc, doing the same. So, are they ALL alcoholics, or is there something fundamentally different about their more casual approach to alcohol, meaning that I rarely EVER saw any of them drink to excess or get drunk, that lends some credence to my W's argument. Oh, and I do know that getting drunk or not does not in any way define alcoholism, the only point I am referring to is the genisis of her drinking, and subsequent continuance may be more due to culture and simply having it woven into the fabric of daily life than a craving, addiction or need...or a little of each.
Anyway, I got off on a tangent that will probably spark more debate than I'd care for on the subject (because I know anyone who went to college here, in the good ole' USA, could claim that downing a keg in one night is cultural too...lol). I suppose ignorance in this case, or really having seen SO much of the opposite, aforementioned "keg" drinking in MY youth, with the drinkers drinking for one purpose, and one purpose only, to get drunk as hell, is allowing me to be a bit on the fence about the whole thing. Somehow I AM saying that what I see her and her friends do is much more palatable, if not better, but what do I know.
My point was that my W takes that same "you're acting like my father" tact with me and I think that has been a LARGE part of some of our intimacy issues, because I DO act more like her father than a lover...honestly, MUCH more like that in the past...hopefully, not so much now.
Someone recently said to me that W probably felt like a sexy, independent, powerful woman with OM and then somehow related that back to how she may be feeling with us. Somehow, I think W feels much more like my sister or daughter than anything else because of my approach with her in the past, starting maybe with the drinking and permeating a lot of other aspects of our lives. I think MY understanding that is good AND bad. It's good because I can work to fix it. It's bad because I think about it constantly and when there are moments where a lover would do xxx (lol), I balk. I seize up, thoughts of feeling somehow like something other than her lover...confirming just what she doesn't like about me...damn vicious circle.
Leap of faith, eh, OT? Just read about that...getting there.
Quote: I understand it in a clinical sense, but not on the level of personal experience. I am not discounting alanon's potential benefits to me but right now it's not really a route I want to take...not just yet.
I understand! It's a big step... I recommend highly because a good group will help you--and I mean REALLY help--with further detachment. To learn not to assign labels as "good" or "bad" to others behaviors. And it really helps me evaluate how I judge others according to the values I held near and dear to my heart. I've just spent the next 2 decades working on shedding some of them that were no longer useful. So proceed at your own pace.
Quote: That is silly at best, downright pathetic at worst. I KNOW I want her to be making this change for her and as such, she does not need to talk to me about it, not attribute it to my "pressure". I don't need her to include me in this unless she wants my help in some way.
Excellent! You've nailed it, GH. I'm so happy to read this...
Quote: P.S. Now, can't we get back to wondering why I haven't had $ex in 8 months, lol?
I hope you're joking... but, in case you aren't, it's fairly obvious to me. Hey, here's where we also have a similarity, because at the time when Mr. W. moved out, it had been 6 months for us. Only I'm a girl, and I could see the emotional quotient here.
Your W is very disconnected from herself, GH. If she's that disconnected with her own soul, she's even more disconnected in her R with you. Let's turn this into a few math equations:
Disconnect in R with self=Disconnect in R with GH
Disconnect in R with self=Distorted self perception
Disconnect in R with GH=Lack of emotional connection
Lack of emotional connection and deplorable self perception=no sex
Need any more theorems solved?
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Thanks UD. One thing I have been *pretty* good at in all this is *mostly* honest self-analysis.
Quote:
I understand! It's a big step... I recommend highly because a good group will help you--and I mean REALLY help--with further detachment. To learn not to assign labels as "good" or "bad" to others behaviors. And it really helps me evaluate how I judge others according to the values I held near and dear to my heart. I've just spent the next 2 decades working on shedding some of them that were no longer useful. So proceed at your own pace.
Yes, this good/bad thing was something that once I learned I was doing it, became really distasteful to me. I really try not to do that anymore. It's not really useful in a situation where there are only two people and thus, two opinions. Trying to be right all the time is a large part of what got me here in the first place. Now I try to just be myself and not at the expense of someone else.
Quote:
I hope you're joking... but, in case you aren't, it's fairly obvious to me. Hey, here's where we also have a similarity, because at the time when Mr. W. moved out, it had been 6 months for us. Only I'm a girl, and I could see the emotional quotient here.
No, I am not kidding. Sorry.
Quote: Your W is very disconnected from herself, GH. If she's that disconnected with her own soul, she's even more disconnected in her R with you. Let's turn this into a few math equations:
Disconnect in R with self=Disconnect in R with GH
Disconnect in R with self=Distorted self perception
Disconnect in R with GH=Lack of emotional connection
Lack of emotional connection and deplorable self perception=no sex
Need any more theorems solved?
Well, yes, if you can solve the one that goes like W+GH=hot sex, I would LOVE that, lol.
Anyway, I am doing a lot of reading and soul searching on this. I have DEEP intimacy issues and so does W. The problem is that we had these before the A and now, with all the emotional garbage that goes along with that stuff, I fear it may take a long time to emerge from it.
I am taking the steps I think I need to take to do my part, but all of the "theorems" that you threw out there don't paint a rosy picture for W.
I oscilate between thinking I need to DO something and thinking I need to DO nothing in terms of HER. My current reading (Passionate Marriage) seems to suggest that I need to basically detach from her in a sexual sense and just be much more comfortable in my own skin as it where. I am only a little over 1/3 of the way through it now so I am only half-sarnachian-cocked (ick) at the moment, lol, and really don't know for sure if I know what I am talking about.
So, as for me, well, that's what I and my IC are working on. I am getting back with her on the 29th for the first time in a long time (scheduling issues) and I think we will set to work on these issues.
Millions of people are affected by the excessive drinking of someone close. The following twenty questions are designed to help you decide whether or not you need Al-Anon:
1.Do you worry about how much someone else drinks? Yes.
2.Do you have money problems because of someone else's drinking? No, not that I know of.
3.Do you tell lies to cover up for someone else's drinking? No, not really. Well, that's a loaded question because in my W's family (religion) ANY drinking would be condisered amoral. W does not practice this religion but it wouldn't matter to her family. SO, that said, still no, there has not been an occasion for me to have to lie to anyone about her drinking.
4.Do you feel that if the drinker loved you, he or she would stop drinking, to please you? I have felt this way in the past. No longer, so no is the correct answer.
5.Do you blame the drinker's behavior on his or her companions? I used to blame her attitude towards drinking on her companions and environment. Since she mainly drinks in our home these days, and I am the only "companion" around, I guess these days, the answer is no.
6.Are plans frequently upset, or cancelled, or meals delayed because of the drinker? No.
7.Do you make threats, such as, "If you don't stop drinking, I'll leave you"? No.
8.Do you secretly try to smell the drinker's breath? No.
9.Are you afraid to upset someone for fear it will set off a drinking bout? I have to say yes, I have felt this way in the past, but really, since all this has happened, her "drinking bouts" as few as they've been, have not been as a result of anything I did or said, so once again, these days, no.
10.Have you been hurt or embarrassed by a drinker's behavior? Yes.
11.Are holidays and gatherings spoiled because of drinking? No.
12.Have you considered calling the police for help in fear of abuse? No.
13.Do you search for hidden alcohol? I used to, and found some empty bottles. That was many years ago. Her excuse then was that her parents used to come in town all the time and on short notice and she threw the empty bottles (those mini ones, she used to drink those sometimes when she didn't want to open a bottle) under some towels in a closet rather than have them in the trash can for parents to see.
14.Do you often ride in a car with a driver who has been drinking? No, never.
15.Have you refused social invitations out of fear or anxiety? No.
16.Do you sometimes feel like a failure when you think of the lengths you have gone to control the drinker? Used to, not these days.
17.Do you think that, if the drinker stopped drinking, your other problems would be solved? Yes. I still believe that to some extent. I am getting over that feeling too. It's kinda like thinking the affair stopping will solve the marital issues...it won't.
18.Do you ever threaten to hurt yourself to scare the drinker? No.
19.Do you feel angry, confused or depressed most of the time? Well, that's not really fair thses days, but in the context of her drinking, no.
20.Do you feel there is no one who understands your problems? No. There are many people who understand my problems.
If you have answered 'yes' to three or more of these questions, Al-Anon or Alateen may help.
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So, I don't know how I scored, but it was a good exercise. I WILL seek help in this regard if I feel I need to. Right now, I hope my W truly is able to do this on her own.
GH, Think of cutting back or quiting drinking like going on a diet. You don't want to tell anyone or too many people in case you fail. Your wife may have heard some sobering facts in her DUI class. She may be cutting back just to see if she can. If she didn't say anything to you about it, then leave it alone. If she does say something, you might let her know that you love her regardless.
Thanks Mama. Last night was more of the same. One glass after dinner and then tea for the rest of the night. I didn't say anything but since I sometimes buy the day's groceries, and did last night, I called her and asked her if she wanted "anything else" which usually means wine. She said "no, I'm fine". So I know SHE knows I have noticed and that is good enough.
I to grow up in Europe(Germany) in my teens. As long as you could reach up to the bar they'd serve you. My family gave all of us kids small glass' of wine with dinner, only for special occasions. My parents where what they called social drinkers. My H family too, don't drink because of their religion. My occasional drink a few times a month have not been a problem. But I can see when one is raised being told that drinking is a "sin" that they can think you have a problem. My H will have a drink with me once a month. I chose not to drink because I know that with past experience and with alcoholism running in my family, it can become a problem.
Regarding W feeling sexy, independent, powerful woman with OM, this may be true. I know that when men notice me, ie. the store or being out and about, this make me have a spring in my step. I seem to say, I must be looking good for someone to approach me and ask me out. All I do is show them my ring and tell them "I'm sorry but I'm married". Being "lonely in bed" can make a person want to be "Noticed". Only thing is I always make it a point to let my H know when things like that happen. Makes H more aware that he needs to pay attention to me. When you and W go out and are having a great time together or just with the kids do you ever just take her hand, hold it, kiss it and them just let go of her hand? I know that after my H EA this is something that we both had to learn all over agian. Little sign of affection from me to show him I was ready to forgive and let everything go.
Thanks for the words on the drinking thing. I don't really have much more to say on that. It is a situation I am going to continue to monitor, but for now, things are looking better than in the past for sure.
In terms of the feeling sexy part, yes, I do a lot of the little things, kissing her hand for no reason, complimenting her, hugs from behind with a kiss on the neck, etc. I also make sure it's not predictable, in terms of what I do or when I do it. I have been doing this for some time now, but admittedly, YEARS went by without so much as a hint of this from me so maybe I have some more time to put in before she believes I am really expressing confident affection rather than doing these things to win her favor. I assure you (and her) that it's the former.
It is getting frustrating to be doing all these things and having her not respond at all, but again, after so long, it must feel contrived to her to say the least. I am going to be patient because these things I do are about expressing my feelings for her, and if they were not for her, then I would be expressing them for whatever other woman I was with. I now understand the importance of this. For me, overcoming a terrible lack of self-confidence was the key, and really continues to be so. I struggle with that daily.
On a side note, but relating to that struggle, I got a rare confirmation that one of my changes, 180's if you will, has been noticed and taken to heart by W. I was walking around doing some household stuff and made some comment. I don't remember what it was but somehow W took it as self-depricating in some way and said "Oh great, the self-depricating humor is back" and sighed. I immediatly said "Whatever you thought I said or meant, you're wrong, I love myself, for better or worse and grinned from ear to ear." I meant that too.
It's obvious that my low self-esteem and subsequent self-deprecation wore on her after, oh, say 10 years. I can't imagine why, lol. I guess she noticed that I cut that out of my daily life.
First want to apologise for using your thread but I need your advise, you read my thread about the 2 A i had.
You told me that I should make changes...I went for a few C and had realise alot of emotion damages i had since i was a child. I realise how wrong I was with my life and the way I handle my M.
GH, please tell me help me...I have been texting my H about the discovery I had about myself to him, I need his understanding that I am working very hard to change n improve myself but he has no respond to me.
My C wanted to see him too, he said he will consider. I need to stay sane and strong everyday to not break down, please give me some advice.
Sorry to trespass your thread...I don't know other ways to write to you.
So proceed at your own pace.
Betsey