GH Saga...it's all in my head?

[grasshopper]

I wanted to post this before the thought left me, and why not start a new thread with it...

This has been lurking in the back of my mind, in that place that is almost impossible to actually pull anything out of. It is what I think has been causing my anxiety for the past week or so, and the root of my issues right now.

It seems like this entire thing is all in my head. To look at my life, to see my W and I together (unless you're in the bedroom with us), to see my little family, you'd think there was no happier bunch alive. You'd think perfection did exist and you were looking at it.

My W has gone back to living life, yes, stressed out about her case, but back to our "old" life as it were. I of course have not, but still, our daily lives are as normal as normal gets.

So, what the problem? The problem is that everything is NOT ok yet for me to address the issues I THINK we have, it feels like I have to "break" this perfection. It feels like I have to intentionally go back to the turmoil, the uncertainty and pain of a couple months ago. Add to the fear of doing THAT, the fact that I really think at least SOME of my "issues" are entirely self-contained, and you get a TON of confusion over what to do. I WILL "break" things if I have to, disrupt the "perfection" if I must. Conflict, or at least expressing myself, even my negative feelings is something I now know I can do without "breaking" things, and that is a huge thing for me.

I WANT things to be better. The problem is, I think I trusted too soon. I think I DID allow myself to fall back into the "routine", or at the very least, went along with W as SHE fell back into it.

I am SO happy to be where I am, or should I say, happy to NOT be where I was. I HAVE achieved my goals, small and large.

At times I feel greedy. I feel like yes, I DESERVE more than this, but that since I have what I have, I should be able to get MORE, NOW, not later. I shouldn't have to wait anymore. Well, I think that is BS of the highest order. I have embraced patience as a way of life WAY to much to allow impatience or anything that looks like it, to derail me now!

SO much of my last couple weeks has been spent focusing on what I don't YET have in my relationship. I really want to try to focus on what I DO have and move forward with something closer to optimism than dread. I want to be positive in my life, something that I stopped being at some point along the way.

I want to get back to where I was as an individual a few months ago, sans the pain, before I started to get negative again. I want to recapture the me that was SURE of himself because he had to be. I want to BE who I may have only pretended to be as a defense mechanism against seemingly insurmountable odds.

I look at all of you, struggling daily to keep your sanity, much of the time in worse situations than I ever had, and I realize that I owe it not only to ME to do this, but you as well. You, who have helped me SO much over these hardest months of my life, inspire me to do better, and I will.

I wanted to start this thread by acknowledging my anxiety and pledging to do something about it. I DON'T want to break what I have going right now, and I think there is a way to make progress without that but it will require me being strong WITHIN my marriage as much as I was when I was effectively out of my marriage, something that does NOT come naturally to me.

Mama, you have been telling me that I am treating my W like a criminal, and you are 100% right. I have been, mainly because she IS a relationship criminal, but also because I have once again, lapsed into my codependency and lack the "differentiation" as PM talks about, enough not to be able to maintain my own happiness. I am so confused these days because I once again placed the responsibility for my happiness with my W and she didn't, for whatever reason, live up to that responsibility. I know better. I SHOULD know better. Too much, too soon, and as far as her having any RESPONSIBILITY for my happiness, it should not happen at all, ever.

I write all this as much as advice to myself as anything. I want to be better and I just think I have been too hard on myself for not "getting" it all the time. I am going to keep reading PM, maybe look into something more "anger" related and most of all, HAVE FUN!

I don't know what the future holds for my marriage. I am optimistic, much more so than a month ago, or maybe even a year ago, but I just don't know so here I am, back on the wagon again, making my own way again. I HOPE I can give myself a chance to just see what lies ahead without spoiling it. My NEW self will allow that, my old self would not.

I am a new man. I truly believe that, and I think that fact alone will help me succeed. What my W does with HER second chance at this is something I cannot control or predict. I hope she does what makes her happy, and I hope I can help with that...but not be responsible for it.

GH

[deejay]

Wow Gh,
I feel exactly the same way most times these days.To much to soon.I feel like it was to easy for her(if that makes sense)Here she got to go off and have this A and party hearty for 6 months while i was sitting around crying and feeling sorry for myself and she just gets to walk back into my life whenever she felt like it!##
Sorry for that..those are just thoughts i think we may all have some time.Just venting a little.
I think you are right though and i am going to try and take your advice to yourself as well.
Its tough Gh,hang in there,as i am trying just as you.
I do think it is good to talk to your W if you have some things on your mind,because the longer you hold them in the worse they seem to get.Whenever i get like that and ask my W something..Yes she gets angry and defensive some times,but no matter what she tells me about what i asked..good or bad..it makes me feel better.I think the fact that they are willing to give information or tell you something about the A gives you reassurance that it is over.Hell i dont know..it just makes me feel better..that is until a day or two later when i think of something else.
But trust me..the days get fewer and far between when your W is not so reluctant to talk and give reassurance once in a while.
Dont feel bad
WE DO DESERVE THAT!!!
Good Luck
DeeJay

[MuddleThrough]

GH,

Forgive me if I'm off base here, but it seems to me that you are backsliding by giving in to your fear. A much different fear than that of losing your family to an A, yes, but fear none-the-less. I liken your situation to a broken bone - you have survived the pain and the break is starting to heal, however, a broken bone seldom heals properly if not cared for. Sometimes you have to re-break the bone to set it properly otherwise the bone will cause all sorts of problems in the future. Not a pleasant thought, causing the bone to break again.

You call the situation "perfection" - clearly it is not perfect to you - rather it seems like all your energy is going to maintaining peace and security (the one part of your M that wasn't poked full of holes by the A - your family life). This may be necessary now, but be very sure that you don't give your W the impression that this is what you want out of your M.

You owe it to both yourself and your W to get this out in the open. You both have embarked on a journey in self exploration as a result of this trauma - neither one of you can go back to life as it was before. You both committed to changing yourselves. Both of you need to heal - regardless of whether you do it apart or together. I think you can agree to involve each other in your individual healing and growth - thereby fostering growth in your marriage. This doesn't mean that you jump into fixing the marriage, but it allows the real bond to grow between you because you are involved in something deeply meaningful to each of you, fixing yourselves. I think that's something that was said by another poster fairly recently: WE get to see this side of you that your wife doesn't. This process is something that she should be a part of.

I know, on some level you're worried about the whole checking-in, co-dependancy thing again, but I think you know to be aware of it now - but this shouldn't preclude real intimacy and fostering of this all important bond. I think another thing that would be useful to you is direct communication of your needs and desires. This assertiveness may be just what it takes to win your wife over. You're telling her that you're aware of your worth and you deserve great things out of your relationship (this is the same lesson she just learned in her A, BTW). This is something that you can wholeheartedly relate on.

I often wonder when I read your journaling: "Where's his communication with his wife?" I feel that you often hold your tongue and end up working off of your assumptions of where she is rather than directly addressing things. Again, forgive me if I'm off base, but I think that in order to be two whole individuals in a relationship, you need to openly communicate about where you are and where you are going, even if it's a goal that's a week away. Negotiate. Bravely face your fears both individually and together - because if you don't, you are again letting them control you. And your W will notice.

Oh yeah, and the sex thing - I think this communication issue plays into it a whole lot. Persue her overtly. Do it in a way that turns it into a game. Send her letters, mention something sexual at totally inappropriate times. Let her know that you desire her - through your actions - ESPECIALLY when there's no chance of having sex. Let her know that if she rejects you, you don't get hurt, but rather turn it into a game, thereby increasing your desire for her. Be communicative. Share more. All this tells her that you want HER, not just sex.

Well, again, just a few opinions - hopefully there's something useful to take away from this.

[grasshopper]

Muddle,

I think you are RIGHT on with a LOT of what you say. Thank you.

Forgive me if I'm off base here, but it seems to me that you are backsliding by giving in to your fear.

I re-read my post and I can see where it looks like that now. Hell, it may very well BE that I am giving into fear, but I don't think so. My experience with being direct with my W yesterday showed me how I can be MUCH different and not afraid of expressing myself. I am NOT afraid of anything more than being my old, controlling, P/A self.

You call the situation "perfection" - clearly it is not perfect to you - rather it seems like all your energy is going to maintaining peace and security (the one part of your M that wasn't poked full of holes by the A - your family life). This may be necessary now, but be very sure that you don't give your W the impression that this is what you want out of your M.

My W is under NO impression that I want this to be the permanent state of our marriage. I have reminded her of that fact, and DONE things to affect change from the status quo. Right now, much like Deejay, I am just feeling some things, and thinking some things that derail me sometimes. I am committed to a NEW relationship with my W, and yes, today, there may be a bit of "maintaining" the peace going on, but less and less as each day passes. If I have taken nothing from OT's comments to me (and I have taken MUCH more), it's that I cannot continue to manage my W's emotional life, or really any other part of it. I have to let go of that, and each day I am working towards that. I know some day I will have to "just do it" because it's not really a "working on it" kinda thing...but I'm working on it, lol.

I liken your situation to a broken bone - you have survived the pain and the break is starting to heal, however, a broken bone seldom heals properly if not cared for. Sometimes you have to re-break the bone to set it properly otherwise the bone will cause all sorts of problems in the future. Not a pleasant thought, causing the bone to break again.

No, not a pleasant thought, but as I said, I am not so much afraid of breaking it again as doing it unnecessarily. I do agree though, fear should not be the main, or even a strong secondary motivation.

You owe it to both yourself and your W to get this out in the open. You both have embarked on a journey in self exploration as a result of this trauma - neither one of you can go back to life as it was before. You both committed to changing yourselves. Both of you need to heal - regardless of whether you do it apart or together.

Yes, I DO owe it to her to be open but you are wrong in one assumption here, SHE never committed to anything of the sort, that is changing herself. SHE still doesn't really talk much about that and NEVER said much to the effect. If she is working on that, she is doing it without talking to me at all about it.

I am hoping some day she decides to put more effort in that area, but for now, I am going to keep working on myself.

I think that's something that was said by another poster fairly recently: WE get to see this side of you that your wife doesn't. This process is something that she should be a part of.

You're right, she doesn't see this side of me, but she doesn't want to either. Whenever I bring up my "process", she kinda mentally rolls her eyes. She doesn't think I should keep seeing my C and doesn't get why I still read so much, post, etc. She is NOT supportive of my "process" but IS supportive of my changes. Does that make sense?

So, yes, someday soon, I hope she does get to see the person you all see. Actually, I think she already does, but she needs to see more.

I know, on some level you're worried about the whole checking-in, codependency thing again, but I think you know to be aware of it now - but this shouldn't preclude real intimacy and fostering of this all important bond. I think another thing that would be useful to you is direct communication of your needs and desires. This assertiveness may be just what it takes to win your wife over. You're telling her that you're aware of your worth and you deserve great things out of your relationship (this is the same lesson she just learned in her A, BTW). This is something that you can wholeheartedly relate on.

This is a POWERFUL affirmation of what I am discovering about the power of being direct and honest versus P/A. I KNOW this is something I need to do 100% in my life now, and will work VERY hard to do it. Thanks for this especially!

I often wonder when I read your journal: "Where's his communication with his wife?" I feel that you often hold your tongue and end up working off of your assumptions of where she is rather than directly addressing things. Again, forgive me if I'm off base, but I think that in order to be two whole individuals in a relationship, you need to openly communicate about where you are and where you are going, even if it's a goal that's a week away. Negotiate. Bravely face your fears both individually and together - because if you don't, you are again letting them control you. And your W will notice.

Yes and no. I am as guilty as anyone of simply venting and not posting the good stuff. There are plenty of times when I communicate with W about these things, but yes, I DO need to do more of that, and as this seems to be the theme of your post, point WELL taken.

Oh yeah, and the sex thing - I think this communication issue plays into it a whole lot. Pursue her overtly. Do it in a way that turns it into a game. Send her letters, mention something sexual at totally inappropriate times. Let her know that you desire her - through your actions - ESPECIALLY when there's no chance of having sex. Let her know that if she rejects you, you don't get hurt, but rather turn it into a game, thereby increasing your desire for her. Be communicative. Share more. All this tells her that you want HER, not just sex.

I think I am doing pretty well with this. I THINK I have found out how to communicate my desire for HER and not just sex. I HOPE I am doing that and that sooner or later it will translate into progress. I am pretty sure I am ok here, no matter how much I vent about it. Just like with the rest of my sitch, I think more openness and directness it a must here.

Thank you so much for your post. It really helped me focus my thoughts today.

GH

[Underdog]

GH, you asked for some thoughts over on Mama's thread, so I'm here. Mama beat me to the punch on the thought of expecting your W to be dishonest... so I'll leave you to finish digesting that particular piece of information.

I actually think what I wrote on Mama's thread applies to many (if not most) of us here. Face it, not one of us is here because we didn't have communication problems...

For you specifically, that means you emote honestly as an example to those you love in your life, GH. Make it a mission of the highest order to express yourself honestly AND kindly in all your communications, and let others know that you won't react to information that you know might hurt--and I think you'll find them more than willing to step up to the plate and follow suit. If she's not willing to be honest with you, examine why. Is it because she's involved in activities that are clandestine? Or are you judgmental and she is afraid of being open with you for fear of ridicule? Or do you make it uncomfortable for her to share because you don't agree with how she feels? Each one of the scenarios requires patience and a willingness to be open with yourself. Oh yeah, 100% of the time.

Since your post is extremely uplifting, I think it's just time to sit back and watch how you navigate these paths. But I do have a word of warning for you--and it applies to just about everyone here. It's something that I had to do as well, so please know that I'm not singling you out. It's just part and parcel to this path.

Work on changing what is in YOUR heart, GH. That is, try to shed the cloak which gives you the opportunity and desire to see yourself as the victim and her the perp. Or another version? Your position is right and hers wrong.

Mr. Wonderful told me that this particular viewpoint--held by me for quite some time--was singlehandedly the most unappealing thought when considering a reconciliation. He intrinsically knew that I felt he was wrong for leaving, that he was off his rocker for believing that walking out was the only way he could feel better, and he also doubted that I would EVER be able to change how I saw things.

Nobody wants to be in a R with someone who they feel has or is judging them for how they feel. Nobody. I had a unique pattern in my life--I seemed attracted to people who left their families. So I opted to put on a different set of glasses and attempt to see why they felt it was the only way--not to judge them, but to understand.

And GH? That enlightenment seemed to bring out the empathy in me. Empathy and compassion are what your W needs from you right now. Cultivate those parts of you that can foster more of that in your R, and just maybe she'll begin to trust you the way you want to be trusted again.

Try to envision the qualities in others that you find encourage you to be truthful with yourself and others. Then tap into them and let them pour forth.

BE love. I can promise you that it will change what is in your heart, and others will gravitate toward you and act like you. No matter what the outcome, you will be a kind and gentle person...

Not a cold and judging one with a critical eye.

IOW, knock down those walls, guy... as a woman, that's what I find infinitely appealing in a man.

Make sense?

Betsey

[grasshopper]

Wow, between muddle and you, I have a personal philosophy for life, lol. Between you guys (girls) and OT kicking my arse every now and again, I am blessed.

Seriously, there is too much GREAT stuff in that post to respond to the way it deserves to be responded to. In short, I think I can embrace ALL of what you said. It really resonates with me right now. I really love your ideas and think they are JUST what my sitch needs (BTW, yours too Deejay).

I thank you so much for these thoughts. I am printing them as we speak and will read over it several times today.

GH

[grasshopper]

To muddle, but also journaling a bit more...

You know what, I AM afraid. I am afraid that I will communicate all the garbage in my head before I communicate the love and joy. That's what I am afraid of. Sure, I NEED to express it ALL, but I have expressed SO much pain and anger over the past several months that it's high time I moved on to express some love and vision for the future. I want to let W know that I am full of life now, not regret, hate or anger. I want her to FEEL my love from across the room. I think in order to do that, I need to do as you both have said today, and OT has said 1000 times, I need to be 100% direct and honest with W on ALL fronts.

I feel SO empowered by all this and want SO much to implement it in my life starting today, for better or worse, because I believe that in the end, it can only lead to better.

GH

[grasshopper]

Oh, as the Irish say, Feck it! Here goes the DETAILED reply to your post, UD, it deserves it if any ever did.

For you specifically, that means you emote honestly as an example to those you love in your life, GH. Make it a mission of the highest order to express yourself honestly AND kindly in all your communications, and let others know that you won't react to information that you know might hurt--and I think you'll find them more than willing to step up to the plate and follow suit.

The few times since all this started, which was a at least one more time than ever before in life, that I DID emote honestly to my W, I have seen the positive results. I KNOW this to be the right way to do things.

If she's not willing to be honest with you, examine why. Is it because she's involved in activities that are clandestine? Or are you judgmental and she is afraid of being open with you for fear of ridicule? Or do you make it uncomfortable for her to share because you don't agree with how she feels? Each one of the scenarios requires patience and a willingness to be open with yourself. Oh yeah, 100% of the time.

At this point, I don't KNOW if she's being honest, but lets say she's not 100% (just like I'm not...yet) honest with me. I think it COULD be any one of your reasons why not, but likely the later two. I think I CAN make a dent in this by first being open myself and removing MY fear of opening up from the equation.

Work on changing what is in YOUR heart, GH. That is, try to shed the cloak which gives you the opportunity and desire to see yourself as the victim and her the perp. Or another version? Your position is right and hers wrong.

Actually, UD, that has been the one thing I think I embraced VERY early on that allowed me some of my success. That said, I HAVE slipped back into the "me good, her bad" mode and need to STOP IT. That's what I think is allowing me to suspect all these things about her, because I DO think of her as doing evil and me good. I have always known at the core of me that it was wrong to think that way and for a long time, I did not. At the most critical time, I did not. Now, I need to really work on getting back to that.

Mr. Wonderful told me that this particular viewpoint--held by me for quite some time--was singlehandedly the most unappealing thought when considering a reconciliation. He intrinsically knew that I felt he was wrong for leaving, that he was off his rocker for believing that walking out was the only way he could feel better, and he also doubted that I would EVER be able to change how I saw things.

I KNOW W feels this way too. She's said so. For the longest time I never understood what she meant by it. Now I do. Now that I understand the value of validation, and even SELF-validation, I get where I went wrong. I really do.

Nobody wants to be in a R with someone who they feel has or is judging them for how they feel. Nobody.

I know that because I have both judged and been judged and see the harm in both. Yesterday when I expressed my anger and hurt over the mall thing, I was TOTALLY afraid of my W doing what she's always done in the past, get angry at my feelings and go on the defensive/offensive. When she did nothing of the sort (because I didn't tell her my feelings of anger/hurt IN anger, just that I felt that way) I was greatly relieved and then finally understood the power of calm, open communication, free from fear of rejection. You see, I was still afraid of her reaction, and even though her reaction was good, I still learned that I COULD have taken it if she had been different in response. AT LEAST I was being honest and open...and in turn so was she. It was VERY, well, intimate.

And GH? That enlightenment seemed to bring out the empathy in me. Empathy and compassion are what your W needs from you right now. Cultivate those parts of you that can foster more of that in your R, and just maybe she'll begin to trust you the way you want to be trusted again.

Yes, I think my M does need much more of this, but also more "individual" growth and reclaiming of ourselves.

I want to be trusted again, just as I want to trust HER again. I am still unconvinced she wants my trust, but I will go on, moving forward in my "cultivation" as you say.

Try to envision the qualities in others that you find encourage you to be truthful with yourself and others. Then tap into them and let them pour forth.

BE love. I can promise you that it will change what is in your heart, and others will gravitate toward you and act like you. No matter what the outcome, you will be a kind and gentle person...

Words to live by. Thanks again.

GH

[always_14]

I also think that for W to feel your love, SHE needs to open her walls to accept it. This will come from forgiving herself, overcoming guilt, forgetting what she did (flashes/pangs of 'oh my God, how could I have done that.'), and then stop feeling like she alone was the victim in your M and to start looking at how SHE contributed to the demise. After all, your part was 50%.

This takes time, look how long it's taken you. Give her a chance. Maybe it'll go faster for her with your empathy and compassion, as UD states....whereas you gained this growth with her total rejection.

I too loved UD and Muddle's posts. They were wonderful, as I am also at a phase where I struggle with these things. Whatever happens next, I want to be a different person to face it all. It's a LOT of work in reconciling to a good, healthy M, really turning around some seriously unhealthy behaviors, but with both of you on board, you can do it.

I think if you start practicing what UD, muddle and OT state, she will follow suit.

Just remember, everyone, EVERYONE (including YOU), just want to be understood, as humans capable of mistakes, weaknesses and in the end, greatness for love.

[MuddleThrough]

GH,

Good for you - I think it's important that you admit your fear because unless you do so, you'll be fighting to hide it, enabling it, and allowing it to define you. Now you can accept and transcend it. I think one essential point that Michelle makes is that it's often crucial to just act. Damn the potential consequences - just do it, and do something different than you would normally. Accept that you are fearful, and that you might not make the right decision - but acting without overthinking something is far more productive than planning the perfect action and then trying to execute it.

I think you should rethink what you said:

"you are wrong in one assumption here, SHE never committed to anything of the sort, that is changing herself. SHE still doesn't really talk much about that and NEVER said much to the effect. If she is working on that, she is doing it without talking to me at all about it."

How much stronger could she state to you that she is demanding change in her life? She felt pursuit of this feeling important enough to risk ALL that she could have lost (and I have no doubt that she calculated what they were during this process) for it. I know it's misguided (as you state in your post that she isn’t looking to change herself) - looking externally for something that can only be found inside - but the NEED for change is there, and the fact that she went into this proves her dedication to change. She is looking to change something external to her to change the state of her emotions inside. Even though it’s convoluted, she is looking to change herself.

I have no doubt that she's scared now. She's probably even more scared to look inside herself now that she's done what she's done because she's now defined herself as a "bad" person in a lot of ways. She needs to forgive herself - and I think that's the first thing that we all needed to do as LBSs in order to move forward. I think this might be why she somewhat mocks your process - because she's afraid of doing something similar. I think she might also view your "process" as selfishness brought on by self-pity and in reaction to her stimulating you to do so - defensively on her part of course.

I think maybe you need to do your best to give your W a safe place to vent her fears, frustrations, ANGER with you and everything that she is feeling right now. As far as the roles go - you're right in that she has done something wrong – not matter how it is rationalized, it’s wrong - but I think you need to completely forgive her and stop expecting, or feeling entitled to her making this up to you in some way. She can't - this is not a debt that can be paid. You have said yourself that you can't hold her in the R out of obligation - but yet there's some sense of obligation here, some sort of emotional capital gained that just doesn’t exist. You are contributing to your own resentment if you keep up this line of thinking because you don’t want to be married to a bad guy, right? Well, you’re not – you’re married to a woman that you love and respect that has done something bad. Don't, however, discount that HER reality includes the fact that she's been the bad guy. Just don't put her or hold her there - always make sure you see the person, not the role.

Again - just some personal opinions, I hope they can be constructive.