Struggling with Perceptions

[ANS]

Thanks, Jen.

I'm really not doing soooo well today. Yeah, PMA ebbs and flows and in general, progress is not linear.

I'm just having difficulty keeping it all together. I don't know where to go from here.

The travel, my R... I'm just not getting what I want out of life. I've always dealt with these situations by rationalizing that it's only temporary, and that still may be the case.

But even if it's temporary, six months away from home is a long temporary. And I don't know how long it will take for W to want intimacy. As far as I know, she'll never want it.

You refer to getting back what I need (not want). In a sense, that's the biggest barrier to getting it. W once told me that she felt like I needed her rather than wanted her. To her way of thinking, neediness reeks of desperation. I guess that's why giving her space has brought me so far. But it seems like this is as good as it gets.

[Jen]

Progress isn't linear. Bummer, isn't it!

Your W has to come to understand what I finally understand--intimacy in a marriage is a NEED, not a WANT. It doesn't show neediness on anyone's part. It is such a basic in a good marriage that both parties must NEED it to make the marriage work.

I never thought I needed intimacy. Thought my M could skate along on our vows 26 years ago. Boy, was I wrong!

I see no progress in my R. I think I made a huge mistake forcing my H to move out of the house. I'm having trouble showing H I'm happy. My PMA rose and fell several times yesterday. I was very lonely yesterday evening after H left (he came to sign refinancing paperwork) and started wondering why I am still here...waiting.

We're all in different places in our R's. We all have to wait out the tough times and enjoy the good times.

You can do it too.

I'm thinking of telling mine, "Sleep with me or I will find somebody who will." Think that's to subtle?

[ANS]

Jen,

Need… Want… It’s a little bit of semantics, but that’s my W’s attitude. From her perspective, our M is working.

Maybe you did make a mistake. Mistakes can always be undone (somehow). Are you considering where to go from here?

I’m starting to wonder if I can wait out the tough times. They’ve been going on for too long right now, and things are getting worse. I could probably be a lot more patient if I was only waiting for things to get better in my R, but I really don’t have much going for me in my life right now. I never liked the travel, but always could look forward to coming home to my W on the weekends. She’s so busy with her own pursuits, and our family obligations don’t stop on the weekends, so my R will really be on slow burn.

Sound desperate? I know Kent would whack me upside the head and tell me to stop obsessing. I hear echos of “Do something for yourself”. But frankly, I have enough individual time, and “something for yourself” is not what’s missing from my life.

Rayanne,

I know you were being facecious. Don’t know if you should throw subtlty to the winds. Maybe your idea isn’t so whacky. Needs some fine-tuning though

As for me, I couldn’t even think of it, or even threaten it. That’s the catch-22. W doesn’t want intimacy with me. I want intimacy with her. She’s found ways of having her needs met with or without me (sometimes, despite me).

It’s the lowest common denominator. The person in a relationship that wants the least out of it is in control.

Andy

[matilda]

Andy,

How long has it been since you and your W and a serious R talk? If it's been a while, maybe it's time to sit her down and tell her the things you're telling us. If she thinks you're okay with the way things are, then she is certainly not going to make any changes. You know my story. my H told me EXACTLY how I was making him feel: about himself, about us, everthing. Until then, I thought everything was fine for him.

I know there is a lot of talk around here about giving space, doing 180's, etc., etc., but there comes a time when open honesty may be the only thing that triggers the response that you want. You desire to have your needs met. And, yes, intimacy - emotional and physical - are basic human needs. You can't go on forever denying yourself because eventually you will start to resent your W. I think you can find the words to make her understand that your desire for her stems from your love and caring and not from just a base physical need. I struggled with that for many years with my H. Thought he didn't care who was next to him in bed. I was so very, very wrong. And now I'm paying for that.

You deserve to be happy, Andy. You've been at this a long time, done all that you could to make up to her for your "wrongs" of the past. It's time for your W to get over it and get back into the game. (Good advice for me, too, huh?)

Good Luck,

M

[Jen]

Where do I go from here, Andy? Yeah, I'm considering things to do to rectify past mistakes, but with H not even willing to see/talk to me on any consistent basis, I really don't know what I can do.

I like what Matilda said about the OR talk. But only you know if that would work for you or not. I know it works for me up to a point, but then it stops working.

If H had really told me years ago that the lack of intimacy was killing his love for me, I think I would have understood and done whatever I needed to do to fix it. But he never did. So I thought everything was OK. It built and built with H until he finally said "it's over, I want out." Man, did that get my attention!!!

Do you think this is still part of the process of your W growing in her understanding of the needs of the marriage (not just your needs)? She's come a long way, Andy, and perhaps she needs more time to come to this understanding. Maybe she's hit a plateau and needs to remain on that plateau for a while before moving on in this process. Like you said, it's not a linear process, so perhaps she tiptoed off the plateau to a lower level for a while?

You just sound pretty hopeless right now, and I wish I could make it all right for you. You've done so much for me, giving me hope again when I was hopeless.

Does any of this make any sense, or am I way off base?

[ANS]

Thanks for your input, gals.

Matilda,

It’s funny. I’ve given this self-same advice to so many people. Try honesty. Throw away the subterfuge. (sound familiar, Jen?)

quote:Originally posted by matilda:

Good advice for me, too, huh?

Yeah, and maybe me too. Our last R discussion was 2 or 3 months ago. I think it’s taken that long to get rid of the negative aura around OR. She had commented to me that she was sick and tired about my negativity wrt OR. Is it safe to try again, or will it just look like a throwback to that? I don’t know. Gotta think on it a bit.

quote:Originally posted by Jen:

Do you think this is still part of the process of your W growing in her understanding of the needs of the marriage (not just your needs)? She's come a long way, Andy, and perhaps she needs more time to come to this understanding. Maybe she's hit a plateau and needs to remain on that plateau for a while before moving on in this process.

I just don’t know.

quote:Originally posted by Jen:

You just sound pretty hopeless right now, and I wish I could make it all right for you. You've done so much for me, giving me hope again when I was hopeless.
Does any of this make any sense, or am I way off base?

Yeah. I feel pretty hopeless. Guess we all do from time to time. You’ve helped me too, Jen. Make no mistake about that. But you can’t make it all right for me any more than I could for you. Got some thinkin’ to do.

It all makes sense. Not just Jen’s posts, but Matilda’s and going back through all of my threads, there’s so much sage advice. I just gotta flesh out the best thing to do for the way things are now.

[Jen]

And that's what it all comes down to, Andy. Right? We have to figure out what is best for us to do, and then do it and take whatever consequences come our way.

I hope the best for you, my friend.

[ANS]

quote:Originally posted by Jen:

She's come a long way, Andy, and perhaps she needs more time to come to this understanding. Maybe she's hit a plateau and needs to remain on that plateau for a while before moving on in this process.

Or, maybe not.

This morning, she started the OR talk that I’ve been contimplating. It went something like this:

W: Are you still taking your Willbutrin?
Me: No. Haven’t for a long time now.
W: I’m not stupid, you know. I know that it’s more than just Québec that’s been bothering you. I know it’s been about the way I haven’t been able to respond to you the way you want.
Me: I know you’re not stupid. I haven’t talked about it because I’ve just been avoiding putting pressure on you.
W: I don’t agree with the way TF has been handling his R. He shouldn’t be a doormat in order to get his W back.
Me: Yeah. I agree with you. But I’m not him. I’ve changed my behavior because ILY and I want things to be fairer.
W: You probably don’t remember it, but you’ve pushed me away before, too.
Me: No. I do remember, and I regret it.
W: You also distanced yourself from me and the kids. When we were outside, you were at the computer playing computer games, or lying on the couch. It was only when you went through your depression that all of a sudden, you wanted to be part of our lives.
Me: Yeah. I know. It took my depression to realize that I had it all wrong. It was only then that I understood what you went through during your burnout. I also came to understand that the things I did to try to help you through your burnout came off the wrong way. For example, I was trying to be strong. I know now, that it only came off as condescending.
W: You did a lot of hurtful things though.
Me: Don’t forget. I was out of control. I wish it never happened, but I don’t feel guilty about it, because it wasn’t me.
W: You think I resent things from the past. I don’t.
Me: I know. But I don’t know what the word is that would describe the fact that all of these things from the past are still bothering you.
W: In the past, you’ve always dealt with things by ignoring them, hoping they’d pass.
Me: Yeah, I know. And sometimes that works. And I’m also guilty of not listening to you because I chalked some of your opinions up to your burnout. I only understood how wrong this was when I was on the other side of the fence.
Me: So. Are the feelings dead?
W: <<shrug>>
Me: I want to get them back.
W: Time will tell.

She just called me at work.

She wanted to make sure I was OK wrt what was said this morning. She also wanted to assure me that despite what she said, she didn’t think that our problems were all my fault. I said, “I know.” and that fault doesn’t matter anyway. The important thing is for us to be on the same team. I told her that a few months ago, she said that she was sick and tired of me making her into the enemy. But at the time she said this, I felt like it was her that was making me into the enemy. But since then, I feel like we’ve been on the same team for most things. We stopped the pissing contest over who had it tougher.

She again apologized for bringing this up. Especially on V-day. I told her that I was glad that she brought it up and that I feel better knowing that we’re on the same team for this too.

I feel another thread coming on. Shall it be “We’re on the same team” or “Burying the past”?

[ February 14, 2002, 11:30 AM: Message edited by: ANS ]

[Jen]

Andy, it sounds like W still has some confusion about you, what she wants in the R, and what she is willing to give to the R. She's still trying to put all the blame on you, although it sounds like she realizes that is what she is doing.

And of course it's not all Quebec that's bothering you. It's good she realizes that.

It's still pretty fragile, isn't it? It was good she called you at work and talked some more. She must have realized at some point how the OR talk felt to you.

I just called my H to update him on something. He wasn't friendly at all, but he wasn't unfriendly, if you get my drift. Felt like I was talking to a stranger!