You know what, GH? I think I have been looking at this from too much of a black and white perspective. I do need to find middle ground, more with my approach to this. I think I need to tell her how I feel about making this decision. Perhaps this will give her the opportunity to be more compassionate - she has in fact been "trying" recently - and she might appreciate this. I am indeed projecting a huge amount of importance onto this, and if I do "take a stand" it won't mean to anyone what it does to me.
As far as the "trying" goes, yesterday I came home for lunch. W was somewhat sad looking and started going on and on about how much she was doing both for herself and the family. I replied that I had noticed how busy she was, and asked her if it made her feel good to be getting so much accomplished. She responded by essentially asking me if I appreciated it! I told her that what she was doing was for her, and I did notice it. She then looked at me with a really pouty look and told me "I'm really trying." I didn't know what to make of this. I am fairly certain it's her way of dealing with her guilt, but I'm not sure if she's trying on the R level for real. She has recently tried to make all of our interactions better, and she has been pursuing me, to some extent, since I completely stopped my pursuit. I'm not sure if this is a genuine interest in seeing if she can improve our M, or if it is a superficial means of maintaining the status quo.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle, at some point we HAVE to stop trying so hard to attach motive to everything. IF she does things that positively contribute to the family or you, then appreciate them and move on. I do the same as you and it drives me crazy. "Did my W have me buy her a new ring because she's really committed to us, or as a smoke screen to continue the affair while enjoying the new trust I may have in her because of the ring?" We could do this for the rest of our marriages no matter WHAT happens.
I am not saying to trust her, just to trust yourself that you don't NEED her to be motivated by pure thoughts/desires, you simply want her to behave in a certain way and when she does, enjoy it. At some point, something has to give and it's at THAT point when it can matter what her motives are. I wish I could take my own advice on this.
All I know is this thing we do, this over-analyzation of EVERYTHING in our sitches is going to cause us to take an early dirt nap!
Quote: You know what, GH? I think I have been looking at this from too much of a black and white perspective. I do need to find middle ground, more with my approach to this. I think I need to tell her how I feel about making this decision. Perhaps this will give her the opportunity to be more compassionate - she has in fact been "trying" recently - and she might appreciate this. I am indeed projecting a huge amount of importance onto this, and if I do "take a stand" it won't mean to anyone what it does to me.
I guess this is really the heart of my point. Your morals are your fiber, I get that, but at some point you realize that this is only between you and your W and what you do in that context is neither right or wrong, just your way, her way, or some kind of compromise. Sure, there ARE abstract ideals of good and evil but what I said about you drawing a distinction (BTW, forgot you asked me to explain this) between the affair on the whole and this trip, was about this.
I see the whole affair as a kind of evil and this trip is just a part of it, but not necessarily THE part that deserves the "line" to be drawn. Of course, that's up to you, but your point that by watching your S while she's gone, you are somehow being an accomplice makes me wonder. Don't you think IF SHE feels you letting her go makes you an accomplice, that standing by all this time after you knew about the affair is much the same? Don't YOU see it that way too? I know you somehow attach much more importance to this trip, and rightfully so, but if you are truly not trying to stand in her way, something that MANY people would advise you to do (that is they would say TO stand in her way), then why bother to lay down the moral "smack-down" over the issue of your son's care? The smack is really over the trip, right? What's the difference between you not looking after him and making an ultimatum about "Either don't go on the trip or I walk." To me, they are close to the same, or at the very least, not taking your son while she's gone is a P/A way to get the point across about your displeasure, something that she already knows... so why belabor the point. She doesn't care at this point enough to prevent her from doing this.
Again, if you are trying to prevent her from going, then do it. I don't think that is entirely wrong, but if you are going to claim to NOT be doing that, then I don't really see why it's so important to make the childcare an issue.
Again, I will admit to being VERY conflicted about this.
ok, lets set the story straight first. i did not say use your child as a pon in this. i think you already are. i said that you should take care of you son. i also said in the courts eyes, not to tell her, that if she abandons you and son and leaves the country that does not bode well for her. theres one more thing about muddles sitch that is totally different then most others, mine included. his wife has not been physical with the om. right now its just a fantasy. if she goes to be with him, muddle your attitude will change towards her. you understand that it is very likly that they will be physical, and then you have to decide if you can handle that. let me tell you, with me, and alot of others in here, have a hard time dealing with that issue. yes, my w is back and we are doing great, but if i did not shake up the tree, rattle the cage, she would not be here. she might have later come back, but who knows when. i did not try and control her, dominate her, i TOLD her i was not going on with the current point in our r. that if it didnt change i was gone. point blank. it took her all of three days to digest this info i gave her, i did not try and make her stay, nor would i, i gave her my thoughts, thats it. and thats all i am saying to you muddle. if you are ok with her leaving, then say nothing, but if you are not, then my friend you better let her know, because if you dont, and she gets physical with this guy, are you ready to handle that. its tough to swallow, i have to remind myself everyday, thats she is back with me, but it is hard knowing out of 17 years what we had is lost, our commentment to each other and only each other. muddle i think you have an oppertunity here to speek your mind, not tell her not to go, but what you will do if she does.
Ok, I just got back from lunch, where I had a conversation with my W that resolved some of what I was stewing about. I'll tell you about that in a bit, but first I want to respond to your points:
Quote: Muddle, at some point we HAVE to stop trying so hard to attach motive to everything. IF she does things that positively contribute to the family or you, then appreciate them and move on.
Right, of course. I do try to do this, and, as seems to be an issue with me, it's more difficult to implement acting on an understanding than accepting the understanding in the first place. In this case (I assume you were responding to my response to what W said to me) I felt that W was trying to communicate something much deeper to me, her eyes, body language, and the amount of emotion in her voice and being said this. In the end, it doesn't change my day at all what she was feeling or saying, but she was trying to communicate something that I don't think she was capable of articulating. This meant something to her that it didn't mean to me, and she wanted me to know it.
Quote: I am not saying to trust her, just to trust yourself that you don't NEED her to be motivated by pure thoughts/desires, you simply want her to behave in a certain way and when she does, enjoy it. At some point, something has to give and it's at THAT point when it can matter what her motives are. I wish I could take my own advice on this.
This is the whole zen-like concept of all of this - when you try too hard to figure out what happens, you're too caught up in the illusions of your own making to recognize the moment when it shows itself. Guilty as charged.
Quote: All I know is this thing we do, this over-analyzation of EVERYTHING in our sitches is going to cause us to take an early dirt nap!
I agree, but ONLY when we attach emotional value to it all. I think that the intellectual part of it will expand our minds and our understanding of human nature and ourselves. Again, as long as we do it from a detached perspective.
Quote: I see the whole affair as a kind of evil and this trip is just a part of it, but not necessarily THE part that deserves the "line" to be drawn. Of course, that's up to you, but your point that by watching your S while she's gone, you are somehow being an accomplice makes me wonder.
I do see your point in the abstract, but my perspective on it is slightly different. I see my "line" here being drawn not on the affair, but on the way the affair is impacting me. If it didn't impact me, I don't try to interfere, but I am now being asked to facilitate it, and THAT is what I am objecting to. I get the sense that you believe that I AM trying to thwart this, even though I don't think so. It truly makes me wonder if that is a part of my motivation that I'm not acknowledging.
Quote: Don't you think IF SHE feels you letting her go makes you an accomplice, that standing by all this time after you knew about the affair is much the same? Don't YOU see it that way too?
No, I don't. It is happening despite me, without regard to my feelings. I am not involved in it. I have done my best to remove any of my habits and actions that might be motivating them.
Quote: but if you are truly not trying to stand in her way...then why bother to lay down the moral "smack-down" over the issue of your son's care? The smack is really over the trip, right?
The issue is that I'm being asked to give up my responsibility to my job and facilitate her trip. I have tried to put myself in this position with her planning to go do something else, and I just can't figure out how I would act then. Yes, the trip itself IS the issue. No, I will not try to prevent her going. I just don't want to be involved. Am I manipulating my perspective to make myself an obstacle to her going, or is the fact that my opposition to helping her do this just coincidentally an obstacle?
Quote: What's the difference between you not looking after him and making an ultimatum about "Either don't go on the trip or I walk." To me, they are close to the same, or at the very least, not taking your son while she's gone is a P/A way to get the point across about your displeasure, something that she already knows... so why belabor the point. She doesn't care at this point enough to prevent her from doing this.
It puts me in a position where I can feel that I did the right thing for myself. I am NOT trying to change her behavior with my decision.
Ok, so now on to now: I decided to talk to my W about how I was feeling about this. I did, and I did so without being emotional, I just told her I was having a lot of trouble with facilitating this. She actually was very understanding. She told me that it would make things a little more difficult for her, and in so doing, she clearly got the point that I was NOT trying to prevent her from going. She told me (tearfully)that nothing was set in stone, and that she might not be going after all. In the end, we both expressed that we were appreaciative of the amount of effort each other put into trying to see the other's POV.
She did call me a moment ago and told me that she talked to her friend (one that I wouldn't feel that great about leaving S4 with) and she was willing to do anything to help out. So now I do have the option. And now the impact of my decision is somewhat cleansed of the stigma of attempting to control her actions. . .
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
shippd, I can't speak for muddle, but i think he decided long ago, weighing all the potential consequences of his actions, not to try to stop her from going. Am I right muddle? That's why i keep challenging him about that, because he has been VERY clear about why he is "ok" with her going on a certain level, because she needs to learn to be on her own, to grow as an individual and experience life and all that comes with making her own decisions.
That HAS been your position in the past, right muddle? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Shippd, I agree, this may very well be the turning point in his sitch but you know I don't really agree with forcing the issue. I DO agree that it worked for you, and mind you, if memory serves me right, there was no "big event" that triggered your "action" you just finally had enough and decided to take a stand, right? If so, that time comes at a different point for all of us.
I also agree that her getting physical with OM could complicate things immensely but like you said, you and your W are back together and doing well after a similar sitch so... it's NOT the end all. It's just a REALLY difficult thing to deal with, as if the rest of this were not.
Like I think muddle has been saying, this is REALLY difficult and I don't think it's in any way cut and dried.
Ok, so once again, all the stress on our part and it kinda went ok. I am glad you got to speak your mind and the convo went well. Maybe this can be a stepping stone to more of the same (good convo).
Quote: i think he decided long ago, weighing all the potential consequences of his actions, not to try to stop her from going. Am I right muddle?
You are.
Quote: he has been VERY clear about why he is "ok" with her going on a certain level, because she needs to learn to be on her own, to grow as an individual and experience life and all that comes with making her own decisions.
That HAS been your position in the past, right muddle? I don't want to put words in your mouth.
It has.
Quote: Like I think muddle has been saying, this is REALLY difficult and I don't think it's in any way cut and dried.
We define ourselves with our choices, Shippd, yours worked for you. I appreciate you sharing your wisdom with me. (I'm not really sure why you think I'm using my son as a pawn in this, but I'll leave that one alone).
I know that I'm taking a risk by "letting" my W go. She's going to do what she wants to do, either despite me, or with extra motivation supplied by my actions. She may become far more sucked in to this A as a result. She may decide not to come back. Hell, she might commit suicide because she can't handle the stress of the sitch and the guilt for what she has done. None of this is really my concern. This is her burden to bear.
I don't want a W that isn't my equal, that doesn't want to be where I'm keeping her. I'm not sure if I'm going to want to be with this woman that has betrayed me on so many levels. I think I do right now, but I won't know until it happens. I know what I'm getting into for the most part, and I accept it.
I don't mean to imply that your choices were in any way wrong, they just aren't choices that I feel apply to my sitch right now. I am starting to be concerned that at some point I'm going to need a separation, and I feel like I'm getting closer to that point - this of course is driven by my lack of patience for the A, and my feelings of entitlement and expectations. Perhaps I will find the ultimatums appropriate at some point. Right now, I don't. As for the crossing of the line into a PA, I don't know what to expect. I am nervous about how I will allow myself to react to it, but in the end, she is her own person, as she was before I met her.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
