Thanks GH, I think you captured my confusion remarkably, but in so doing you bring up quite a few good points. The trouble is, when I hear or see points, I tend to try and counter them, or argue, and THAT is entirely counterproductive with my W. Just as an exercise here, I'm going to do just that, because it might help me approach this from a position where no argument is necessary.
Quote: I immediately thought the same thing your W did, that this was really something you were going to do for the kid's sake, not really her's.
I could easily see this as something I'm doing for my son - and I could really put a huge amount of energy into this opportunity, and both my son and I could benefit HUGELY from it. The fact is, I would see this situation as BUYING lemons and then making lemonade from them. If you don't want lemons, why buy them? My POV, and I'm not saying it's right, is that she is the primary caregiver, she's going to go away, someone has to take over HER responsibility. Period.
Quote: Here's the thing. Your W's perception is VERY skewed these days. She is NOT making rational decisions. That said, your letter to her IS judgmental and the work thing added in just sounds like an excuse to me.
I know it's judgemental, and that's a serious concern to me. My action in life comes from judging things according to my values. No way around it. If I don't act in accordance with my judgements/values, then I'm being a hypocrit for judging her for acting against her values. I'm not saying here that I'm judging and condemning her for this (even though I did just say it) but rather using it as an example of human behavior that I want to avoid in myself. You're right, the work thing does sound like an excuse - it is a valid reason - and it will no doubt be taken that way.
Quote: IT IS MORALLY wrong, but then again, so is the affair as a whole so this distinction seems a BIT arbitrary to me but then again, an overseas trip to consummate a EA seems a pretty good place to draw the line.
I'm not totally sure where you are coming from when you talk about me making a distinction between the affair and this particular action. I know the A is wrong, and I choose to not involve myself in it one way or another. She is making me an accomplice in this and that's what I want no part of.
Quote: This idea of not taking the time off IS your attempt to try to thwart her plans, and even if it isn't,it looks to all the world like it is. I say more power to you, just understand that it could backfire.
This is the crux of it - and I think that it is too easy for my W to accept this as fact. She won't expend the energy trying to understand the distinction between me not wanting to be involved and me trying to prevent her from going. She can do as she pleases - it certainly won't be as easy for her to do without my help, but she CAN do it. I certainly don't want this to backfire, but I can also see my taking the time and doing as she wants and expects to backfire also and turn into a "he helped me go see OM, so he must have supported me" down the line.
Quote: maybe it would be best to simply say you are not taking the time off, period. Don't explain yourself or try to justify anything. To me, it really won't matter what you say after "I'm not doing it" because she'll just try to turn it against you and make you feel like an a-hole. Why not let her come up with her own reasons for that.
I think this is a really good point, and one that I almost instantly had an excuse for. I have taken a fair amount of time to respond to her on this. I think that if I was going to respond this way, I should have done it from the offset. I almost feel she's entitled to an explaination, I guess it's my effort to make up for the time I've spent stewing on this. My guilt. My fear of telling her something she doesn't want to hear. My desire to appease her.
Is this just a misplaced stand I am trying to take against parts of myself that I don't like? Am I infusing this with far too much importance because I see so much to it? See, this really IS all about me, and if I do tell her this without conveying that to her, it's going to be perceived as all about HER, which to me, it's not.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
muddle: you say that you would love the time with your son. so take the time that you will be getting. you do not have to help her with her plans. i think you are forgetting one important part here, that is your son. if you dont take him, then who will, would you trust a stranger or someone you do not like to have him the whole time she is away? i wouldnt. you dont agree with what she is wanting to do, nor do i blame you either, cause i sure wouldnt. i would tell her that im taking son, and when you get back me and son will be gone. period. no more words to say, sometimes tough love is the best love, and your wife needs to know that. this well if she feels like im stopping her from going that she will always use that against me, bullshi#, this is all about you and your son, lets face it she will do whatever she wants to, dont be affaid to stand up for your family, maybe thats whats she is looking for, maybe not. like you said you think this is morally wrong, and so does the rest of the world, including her. i would call her on it and tell her that if she wants to go, thats fine, but me and son will be gone.
muddle, sorry to tell you man, but your son is YOUR responabilty. he has to be, she isnt thinking of him or you. why are you leaving your son out of the problem you and your w are having. he SHOULD BE FIRST, and the rest second. thank about that muddle please!!
Shippd, thanks for your perspective. I have to admit that it puts me a bit on the defensive. I don't think I'm in a place to give ultimatums, nor do I want to. I'm not going hold my son over my W's head.
I do take responsibility for my son, and should my W abandon her post, I will be there for him. Should my W find someone to watch him that I don't agree with, I will be there for him.
I guess this comes down to a judgement of my W's character. She is someone who expects to always get what she wants. I guess I am trying to send her a message that she has made decisions, and gotten what she wanted, and now is ignoring the responsibilities that came along with those decision. She wants the freedom to do whatever she wants to, she needs to realize that her responsibility is her own. I know it comes across here like I am trying to teach her a lesson, I'm trying to fix her. The truth is, I am trying to fix myself. I have spent nearly my entire R with her appeasing her, and doing what I can do lesson the burden of life. This is a fault in myself that I need to learn to fix. I accept and own what is mine - and I need to STOP owning what's not.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
you know muddle, this thought just came to me, that maybe this is what your wife is longing for.
me and my w went to a marriage seminar, a round table full of couples, 22 in all. the one common thing amoung the women there, mostly involved in a, the one thing they all said is that they felt there husband did not love them enough to fight for them. they felt that the marriage was over, mainly because they did not feel the love that they wanted so bad from thier husbands, my wife included. is this your wife? i dont know, but i bet part of it is. one more story, a long time friend of mine, female, is now seperated from her husband. she has told me several times that she wished her husband would fight for her like i did with my wife. she shook the tree and nothing happened. he has not fought for her, not once. the sad thing now she feels like he never loved her and she has filed for divorce. have you ever even talk to your wife about your feelings you have for her? have you told her other then you dont agree with her. does she no how much you will be hurting if and when she leaves. i would lay it out, because if she leaves your odds of her comming home to you are not good. so you give her ultamadums, its better then just siting back watching her leave. it might not be the bding thing to do, but man you are stronger then i am, i could not do it, with out letting her know my take on it. that i would not be here waiting for her when she left. and yes when she leaves she is abanding you and your son, that does not bold well in the court system. its time to rattle the cage muddle, she has to see the whole picture, the damage that she is getting into, and where you stand either way. fight for her........
Shippd, she knows that it will hurt me. I have directly communicated my feelings to her. I have told her that her going will hurt me tremendously, but that I wasn't going to stop her. "That's true love" she said, and then "If I come back and you've done things like notified family, or moved out, I'll know your love wasn't strong enough."
This whole "fight for her" concept has left me, and I would venture to guess a whole lot of you all out there, totally confused. To fight, you need opposition, the A seems like the likely opposition, the threat. Fight the threat, and you are fighting against your S. No can do. So, the next enemy has to be the problems in the M, the ones caused by you. So the fight turns inward, introspectively battling your own issues in order to become a better person and a more worthy S. Somehow, this DOESN'T look like fighting, except to a COMPASSIONATE person. So the issue here is that behaviors that look like fighting are detrimental, begging, arguing, pleading, etc, but the real fight goes unseen. The responsibility for SEEING the fight falls on the shoulders of the WAS - and unless they are looking for it, they will not see it. They probably don't want to see it much of the time, and when they do, they want to see the pathetic, hurt, sad S that loves them so much they are falling apart in order to fuel their ego. So, where's the fight at? This is, of course, assuming that the LBS IS actually fighting here.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
well muddle, your in a catch 22. i promise you if she leaves without you telling her your point of view. she will then say well you didnt love me enough to stop me from going. where do you go from here? i guess that is the question you have to answer. you have to decide what that is before she leaves, and then tell her what that is, she really needs to know before she leaves. you did tell her early on that you would not accept her going, have you continued to let her know that. you said you gave her an unltamatum, and was affaid of that after you gave it to her. i promise you that if she leaves, you will not be able to work, focus on life, you will not be able to do anything but think what are they doing right now, it will drive you nuts. i do feel you need to make a decision before she leaves as to what you will do if she does. muddle the tree has to be shook, the cage has to be rattled, either way, she is going to turn it against you, but atleast if she does not go, then she wont have the guilt of that. i think all this bickering between you two is not good for you sitch. in a way i bet she feels you are making her feel stupid, by your actions. i would tell her how you feel about this, and then leave it alone. do not let her bring you into her world of fighting.
Quote: This whole "fight for her" concept has left me, and I would venture to guess a whole lot of you all out there, totally confused. To fight, you need opposition, the A seems like the likely opposition, the threat. Fight the threat, and you are fighting against your S. No can do. So, the next enemy has to be the problems in the M, the ones caused by you. So the fight turns inward, introspectively battling your own issues in order to become a better person and a more worthy S. Somehow, this DOESN'T look like fighting, except to a COMPASSIONATE person. So the issue here is that behaviors that look like fighting are detrimental, begging, arguing, pleading, etc, but the real fight goes unseen. The responsibility for SEEING the fight falls on the shoulders of the WAS - and unless they are looking for it, they will not see it. They probably don't want to see it much of the time, and when they do, they want to see the pathetic, hurt, sad S that loves them so much they are falling apart in order to fuel their ego. So, where's the fight at? This is, of course, assuming that the LBS IS actually fighting here.
I LOVE THIS. You really nailed that feeling a LOT of us have when we thing about the whole "fighting" part that usually falls on us male LBS more than anyone else. There seems to be a contingent of people out there (not NECESSARILY on this board mind you) that feel if we don't actually take up arms against the OM or immediately make ultimatums, we are somehow weak or not fighting. I think you make a GREAT case for a different kind of fight, the "unseen" fight as you call it, can be the most difficult kind of battle for us to wage and of course, according to DB and many on this site, the most rewarding.
As for your sitch, I am tending to agree with this idea that you say to hell with this idea that somehow by taking care of your boy you are "letting" her go, or supporting the affair. In the future, if you are D and your W asks you to take him because she wants to go on vacation with her new boyfriend, are you always going to say no? What if you wanted her to do the same for you and your GF? I am not trying to paint a bleak picture, only to try to get you to see that the morality of this sitch is not absolute and entirely dependent on the timing of it... which is no small thing, I agree. You are still her H and she your W but if that is not to be in the near, or distant future, then what does it matter?
I hope I am making sense. What I am saying is that you are projecting all kinds of things onto this sitch, and that's your right, but you COULD decide that this is ONLY about you and your son and leave her the hell out of it.
One thing I thought of is this; is there any middle ground here? IS this ALL about a moral stand, maybe even trying to prevent her from going, or is there any practical value to trying to get her to arrange for/pay for someone to look after him with the idea that you will decide when and if that happens depending on your schedule?
That way she is being the responsible mom and you are still not being the 100% facilitator of her trip.
Lastly, that line about you "not loving her enough" if you do any of those things on her list is one of the most asinine, totally perfect WAS things I have ever heard. WTH? Um, honey, if you loved ME enough, you wouldn't be flying intercontinental to f--k my cousin.
Sorry muddle, she pissed ME off with that one.
Man, like I said, this is a tough one, one that I really have a hard time giving advice on. I guess I just did, but take me with a HUGE grain of salt.
Quote: . i promise you if she leaves without you telling her your point of view. she will then say well you didn't love me enough to stop me from going.
Shippd, pardon me for calling you out on this one, but you are projecting your sitch onto muddle's (and who doesn't, BTW) big time. I couldn't disagree with you more, at least in the "i promise" part. Muddle's W could return from this trip and say "muddle, you 'letting' me go was the most loving thing anyone has ever done for me. I asked you for time and space and despite how you felt about this trip, you didn't stand in my way. I now realize that I made a big mistake. Things were not as they seemed with OM and I really want to try to make things work between us. I really appreciate you letting me find this out for myself instead of trying to force me to see it. I would have resented you like hell for that and probably would still be figuring out how to be with OM right now."
It COULD go that way too. We don't know. The thing I do know is that like most of us, I believe Muddle has told his W how he feels enough. She knows he loves her and is standing by in this most difficult time, trying to figure things out. Just because he doesn't try to force the issue does NOT mean he doesn't love her or that he's not fighting. Just because he doesn't say, for the 14th time, that he hates the A, loves her and doesn't want her to go, doesn't mean she doesn't know how he feels. She does... and she's doing this anyway. It's where she's at right now and yes, he can try to force her away from "there" but then again, we ALL could try that. Many of us did that and then, when it didn't work, we ended up here, DBing our a$$es off because our experience told us this was a better way, at least for OUR sanity.
What worked for you may VERY WELL work for muddle...then again, it may not. There are no guarantees in this... or promises.
Yes, GH. I don't buy the line that "you didn't love me eough to stop me". You CAN'T stop her, Muddle. If she really wants you to stop her than what she is saying is she wants you to control her, dominate her, treat her like a child or an object to be owned etc. Is that really what you want in your m? You must treat her like a responsible adult (although she ain't acting like one) in order to ever get to a point where you will be to some degree equals in a R. The macho take her down with you idea sucks. Definately, do not use your son as a weapon against her. Not only is that morally wrong, it is setting up a really bad future. You threaten a kids status with mom and she will become the worst enemy you ever had! I still say, let her go! You've let her know what she is doing is wrong, now let her live her life. You have no moral guilt to feel here at all. Besides, she might hate the guy! Just my 2 cents. P.S. Again, I know how hard it is to watch the love of your life go off to be with someone else. I know, man.
