Hmm - I don't know exactly how to take that. I got that you took negatively to the article, so I don't exactly know how you view my perspective. Regardless, thanks for your faith in me, I'm glad I'm not the only one.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
You know muddle, it just came out and afterwards, I didn't even know how I meant it either. I will figure it out and expand on it later...maybe. It's the weekend so you never know. If nothing else, it's a cliffhanger until Monday, lol.
I tried something different last night. I went out without telling W much more than "I'm going out, think I might go to the bookstore". I ended up talking to an old friend and heading out to go get coffee with him. I didn't update W on my plans (she had her friend over and, to my knowledge, wasn't counting on me getting home at any particular time for her sake.). She called me at about 10:45 asking where I was. I told her the boro I was in and she got really annoyed, telling me that I was disrespecting her by not telling her my plans. I basically cut her off and asked her if she needed anything. She didn't so I got off the phone. When I got home she was asleep. I have been kicking around this thing about her need to control me, either explicitly or by knowing where I am and what I'm doing at all times, and how I can get a little more breathing room. So this was a bit of a calculated attempt at doing so. Anyway, at one point in the night, I'm sleeping on my back and she starts telling me to roll over. Not asking me but ordering me. I got a bit annoyed at this, and I told her that I didn't want to. She kept at it for a little while and then gave up. Eventually I decided that it would really rock her boat if I got up and slept on the couch downstairs. It sure did. She got up and started to argue with (at?) me all morning. She went on and on about how I was disrespecting her by not letting her know what my plans were. That I was treating her like crap. Oh, and the kicker here that speaks volumes: "you're the one who wants to fix everything"! Every time I responded to something, if I did, I responded with an I statement that had no causal link to anything she said or did. She was REALLY frustrated and annoyed by this saying that I have the freedom and ability to do whatever I want to whenever I want to. She's doing whatever she wants to, and I'm not trying to control her (she actually had the nerve to try and tell me that I was and do try to control her). I think she's scared that the power she thought she had over me is starting to fade away. I don't normally like to play games, but I am actually starting to look at this that way, like a game. Experiment with the dynamic, and see if she changes her tune. I guess doing something different, something out of character, something that tells her "I'm going to do whatever I want to regardless of your approval" really changes things.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
More journaling: this weekend was great - my son and I have been having a really great time together. W has been trying to get me to look at her going away as an opportunity to "get to know our S the way I do". The thing is that when I get the opportunity to spend time with him, I give him 100% of my attention and focus. We hang out like friends. He doesn't ever go over to the TV and watch it for hours, he wants to be engaged and doing things. I see my W ignore him for hours on end, partly becuase she spends all her time on the computer, but mainly because I've noticed this trend where she needs to be entertained by someone or something. She doesn't seem to bring much to the R with our S. This is depressing to me, but I am confident that the new R I have with my son would not have been what it is had it not been for this sitch.
W said to me the other day that if she decided to stay it would be for our S. I had so much to say to this, but I bit my tongue. There's no use arguing, and doing so will only push the realization of your point further from their acceptance. I find this almost rediculous. It's as if she would make this "huge" sacrifice for her son, but she won't sacrifice in the day to day. Which is going to have more impact on his life and development?
W said something else this weekend that made me think. She said that she wished that I could somehow be a part of what's going on between them!!!!! It's not too difficult to see here that what she was saying to me is that she wishes that I could be a part of her LIFE. Because to her, THIS is her entire life. To me, she hasn't been living. For the past 6 months, her entire existance has been about THIS. She has been living in a fantasy and hasn't been living. Too bad for her.
I had a talk with W's stepfather last night. I think he was right on with a lot of his analysis of my W, but he held on to the idea that something he could say would impact her thoughts or actions. I told him that it took a lot, but that I finally accepted the fact that nothing I said could change her thinking, especially because she's getting a sort of instant gratification out of thinking what she does. So now, here I am, at another crossroads where I am concerned with how my actions will effect her. I know I should do what I feel is right, but I find myself debating trying to enhance her life with us, because she very often likes to point out that things are unfair because I can do what I want when I want and she says she cant, or if I should almost abandon her and do what I want. I know that I don't want to abandon her, but it would be unpredictable, and the distance might do something to help with reconciliation if it happens in that it give her an opportunity to see me with far more mystery than previously and more potential for attraction. Then again, this might be pushing her away. At this point, I know that I don't want to try and buy her back, either through actions or gifts or what not, but I don't want to contribute to her desire to leave either. On some level, I think a separation would be ideal now, because it would force her to live in reality, taking care of herself, and it would force her to grow up a bit. Well, it's not an option right now.
Overall, I think that my state of mind is great. I've been doing a lot that I want to do. I wish my R with my W was different, in quite a few ways right now, but it's not. It will change, one way or another. Time will tell.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Interesting convo at lunch that kind of ties into what I posted this morning. W told me that I have had an attitude with her and her friend and my brother. I told her I didn't intend to have an attitude, and that I didn't really see it as such. I told her that I was uncomfortable with her friend and my brother's involvement in the situation, to which she got quite offended. She started going off about how I was just upset that they didn't take my side. I told her that, no, I was upset because they were contributing to something destructive. That's not really an issue I feel the need to fight.
Anyway, she eventually told me that she felt like I had checked out of the relationship. I was the one who wanted to work things out, and I wasn't acting like I did. I wasn't "making" her want to try. Interesting, huh? All too clear the power changing one's actions can be. I can't say that this is necessarily a positive thing, but it certainly got attention. I did tell her that I haven't checked out - which might have been a bad thing, in fact I think it's one of my issues - I respond to her feelings too readily. I was acting a certain way on purpose, and it got a reaction. Good. She responded by giving me a sort of guilt trip, and while I was very detached from it, I didn't totally hold out my end. Nothing ventured, nothing gained. I certainly don't think any real damage has been done.
Although I did do something else that I think was good: She communicated to me that she felt that I had a double standard regarding the responsibility of our son. She felt that I expected her to watch him when she was around and I wanted to do something, but she had to ask me. My response to her was: "I understand your point. Thank you for bringing it to my attention." to which she responded "I've been trying to tell you this for a while" and I responded "well, you've done something RIGHT this time in that I got it. You communicated directly and I understood it. You did something RIGHT." She was a bit confused, and admitted that she didn't know what she did differently - she didn't know what that right thing was - but I think I may have planted a seed in her mind.
Anyway, I'm still in an ambivalent place in my mind. I may be truly checking out, I'm not totally sure yet, but I think playing this card is somewhat effective. I mean, in all actuality, SHE is the one who is operating on a rediculous double standard - she's upset that I'm not concerned with her feelings, meanwhile she's acting in total disregard to mine. . .
Do I sound resentful? Am I acting this way as a result of a passive agressive stress relief? I don't really think so, because I am genuinely happy with my life now (despite the obvious), but I don't want to turn around to find that my motivation isn't what I thought it was.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
These new turn of events for GH have gotten me a bit down. I asked a question in a previous post about whether I was being P/A at all, and now having read GH's post where his W told him that this was coming through, I'm thinking that on some level I am.
I know one of my goals was to lovingly detach, and while I did do this for a while, I'm sort of at this fcuk it stage where I'm not too concerned about what happens either way. I think this is fueled by more anger than I think, BUT it's a big change for me. I think I have spent so much of my R with my W trying to do for her. I never really noticed that she was such a princess because I always wanted to do for her wherever and whenever I could. But she really acts like she's entitled to whatever she wants. For me to stop catering to her every whim is a big 180 for me, and I can tell that she doesn't like it. When she said to me "it seems like you've checked out" I thought to myself "if you were really checked out, you would be happy to see this, because it would mean I was finally accepting what has to be." There was fear in her eyes. No doubt, she didn't expect this, and she doesn't know what to think.
I know that there was a stage I went through where I thought about how unfair things were. I was doing what was right and it had no bearing on the R. So now, in the midst of her telling me that I don't think about her feelings, or her feelings don't matter to me, I have stopped concerning myself with her feelings and I don't really care too much about how what I do makes her feel. This is different than doing something to make her feel bad, because this isn't the case, but it's more that I am doing what I want to do without concern for its impact on her. This is exactly what she complains that I have done, but in reality, I have kept myself so in check and done whatever I could for her to make her life better. Perspective, perspective. Anyway, who's she to talk about me not caring about her feelings when she's doing what she's doing despite my feelings. Do unto others. . .
Then I get to thinking that she's not entirely well, and this sort of absolves her, or does it. I want to give her all due respect, but in so doing, I need to find some way to excuse what she's doing because it impacts me. It doesn't really affect me too much any more, but it still impacts my life.
Last night, W ran out and I went down to the computer. Her email was open (the account she opened just for the A) - she never leaves it open, in fact she always deletes the browser history - and I didn't look through it or anything. I figure that the fact that they are talking is the only thing that matters. Anything beyond that is information I don't need to know.
GH said something else that got me thinking. He discussed D with his W, who hadn't given it any real thought. My W seems to have done the same. She has thought about going through our stuff and dividing it, but it seems like she hasn't really gotten below the surface. This sort of reality creeping in seems to me to be so necessary, but how can I paint the picture? I get a real sense that this is all fantasy for her and she isn't going to leave because it's too much work - I really get the sense that she's going to push this as far as she can, but she's not going to get herself on her feet. She's looking to be rescued.
So how do I get her to look at all the details that are so very real without pointing them all out myself? I know when you are so focused on something that's great and fantastic, you minimize all the costs of getting there. I have no doubt she's doing this. I guess there really isn't any way to show her, or make her consider, or do anything, but this is a problem, and something that I'm finding I'm less and less willing to live with. I have been understanding and patient. I still am, but I have had little meaningful interaction with my W in months now - the bad far outweighs the good. I know this can change, I know there's so much good to be had in our R, but it has to be two people with the same goals. I think I have to keep distancing myself, going dimmer, in order for her to recognize that she's pushing me away. She has been throwing that it my face since the beginning: "you're pushing me away." Well, I think a big part of the draw for her is the superficial ego boost (self-esteem again) she gets from having two people who want her. Now she's starting to feel like I don't want her so much anymore and the fantasy IS starting to slip out of her control. I'm not behaving predictably, so she doesn't know what to do.
Maybe it will help, maybe not. The thing with this A is that because it's with my cousin, and he's in another continent, the R itself is so rediculous because there are so many sacrifices inherent to actually having the A become a real R that it would fail on its own merits nearly instantaneously. So I do sort of have the luxury of experimenting with the dynamic of our R within a wider spectrum than a lot of other people might. She CAN'T really just leave and run away with him. . .
It's interesting to put this down in writing because experimenting with the dynamic of the R is like trying on different clothes for me. It's experimenting with different character traits that I possess and seeing how they work for me, and how they change the situation. I hope my motivation is all in the right place, but regardless, I have to this point grown substantially as a person - not necessarily in my M. I am proud of who I have become and the strength that I am aware I possess. I can't say I've solved any real issues in my R, but I think all the progress I've made will be instrumental in the R if it comes to that.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Muddle...I can't do it my man, I can't NOT check on you...and selfishly, I am only replying to you because you included me in your post...and much of what you say applies to my sitch.
All-in-all, I think my downfall, or the PART I played in it has been my inconsistency. It is my passive/agressive stuff 100%. I have been loving one day, angry the next. If I can give you any advice at all right now, it is to just BE what you want to be and damn be to all who say otherwise. If you want to be patient and loving toward your W, then do it. If you want to set boundaries, then do it, but whatever you do, decide to do it and then keep it up. I did not do this.
Also, about the D talk. MY W is 100% convinced that we will never get divorced. It's not even about painting a picture. No matter what I say or do, short of actually filing myself, will convince her that we won't be together in some way forever. It's maddening, I assure you.
At one point I even accused W of being like that on purpose so that I would have to be the one to break up the family and she could say that she tried to stay together in spite of everything. She didn't dispute that too much.
My friend, learn from me. Understand that if you see progress and especially if you see progress with YOU, then leave it alone. Give time and the process a chance to work. Don't push, don't expect, don't stop loving. This is NOT a game to be won by the 4th quarter, it's a life-long process that we are just starting. I forgot that. Please don't make that mistake.
WOW - it's like I've been visited by a ghost, lol. We miss you man!
Quote: If I can give you any advice at all right now, it is to just BE what you want to be and damn be to all who say otherwise.
More and more I have come to this conclusion. Our Ws have made us feel like we have been doing something wrong. Somehow, it's our responsibility to make them want to come back. BS. The best I can do is keep myself open as long as I can. I have my life to live, and I'm not going to live it groveling at the feet of someone else. If she doesn't like who I am, tough. I don't really like the person she is choosing to be right now, and I have accepted that there's nothing I can do about it, now it's time for her to come to terms with this. I'm living for me now. There's room to accomodate someone who wants to travel down the same road as I do, but I see no reason to accomodate someone going the opposite direction.
Quote: If you want to be patient and loving toward your W, then do it. If you want to set boundaries, then do it, but whatever you do, decide to do it and then keep it up. I did not do this.
Point taken - but I think as long as my personal motivation stays consistant there's room for experimenting with "tactics."
Quote: Also, about the D talk. MY W is 100% convinced that we will never get divorced. It's not even about painting a picture.
And here's where the really troublesome issue is: she's acting like she can do whatever she wants to - she's not holding herself to the same standard as you are, and she doesn't see any ramifications for this. Maybe the boat needs to be rocked.
Quote: At one point I even accused W of being like that on purpose so that I would have to be the one to break up the family and she could say that she tried to stay together in spite of everything.
No question this is parallel in my sitch. She absolutely doesn't want to initiate anything. I have, in an effort to show her unconditional love, essentially confirmed her security in this relationship as long as we are still together. Maybe this was a bad thing. I'm going to keep playing this out, but I sort of regret it now. I recognized that she was holding all the cards, and I essentially told her that this was the case. I know I hold certain cards of my own, but regarding the M, she's holding all the cards that lead to reconciliation.
Quote: My friend, learn from me.
Certainly trying here. . .
Quote: Understand that if you see progress and especially if you see progress with YOU, then leave it alone. Give time and the process a chance to work. Don't push, don't expect, don't stop loving. This is NOT a game to be won by the 4th quarter, it's a life-long process that we are just starting. I forgot that. Please don't make that mistake.
You know, there's one thing that I haven't really done. I think I need to write something down that solidifies my purpose here. I "know" what I'm here for, but I need to be able to forgive myself when I find myself on a road that isn't working for me and return to the centered place that all my actions SHOULD be coming from. I know I'm better now than I've been in a long time. Since way before this A stuff started. I still do want to save this M, but the deeper into this I get, the more I realize that I am growing further and further away from my W. She needs to catch up on many levels, and while I DO want to wait for her, it's getting harder and harder to see the R I should have with a life partner with this person I'm sharing my life with now. Regardless (I know this all sounds really pessimistic) I want to give it the best chance, I wouldn't be happy with myself if I didn't. I know there's all the potential in the world in this M, but my W's will is being wielded from an immature place right now. Unless she grabs hold of it from higher up, there's not a whole lot of hope.
Here's another issue that I find myself struggling with: Since this all started, I have been taking such a critical look at myself and making changes for the better. W has become more and more resentful of the fact that I'm looking more like a goody-two-shoes, of course because of all her guilt and such. This is destructive because it puts a huge divide between us, and since we are so diametrically opposed, there's no clear way to unify. I'm not sure how to lessen the impact of this, because I like who I have become, the things I've focused on in my life, but I don't want to distance myself too far.
Anyway, GH, if you're reading this, thanks for checking in. The recent change in your sitch has hit hard, and sparked a lot of thought. Thanks for keeping us all updated - it truly is a huge service to us all. Keep your chin up and keep on keeping on.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: WOW - it's like I've been visited by a ghost, lol. We miss you man!
I miss you too, but I can't do it full time right now...that said...here I am again, lol.
Quote: More and more I have come to this conclusion. Our Ws have made us feel like we have been doing something wrong. Somehow, it's our responsibility to make them want to come back. BS. The best I can do is keep myself open as long as I can. I have my life to live, and I'm not going to live it groveling at the feet of someone else. If she doesn't like who I am, tough. I don't really like the person she is choosing to be right now, and I have accepted that there's nothing I can do about it, now it's time for her to come to terms with this. I'm living for me now. There's room to accomodate someone who wants to travel down the same road as I do, but I see no reason to accomodate someone going the opposite direction.
Ok, here's the thing. I guess that is what you are and who you want to be, which is what I was saying to embrace. For me, I think what I said was more about making the choice to be patient and not letting other people, here or in real life, get the better of me and influence me to leave my path for something that was not really for me. It's all about learning who you are, what you want and then sticking to it...at least that's what I believe now. I didn't do that as well as I should have and I feel somewhat of a failure for it. I know I am not a failure but it FEELS like it.
Quote: Point taken - but I think as long as my personal motivation stays consistant there's room for experimenting with "tactics."
Not for me anymore. I am too far along in this. I know what I need to change, know what my marriage was missing in the past, and know that we need help to fix it, even if that help comes only in the form of open, honest conversation. What is over for me is the constant agonizing over what is or is not "working" in terms of my sitch. Either I, the man I am, will "work" for my W, or I won't. That's it. No more going down tunnels, cheeseless or not. I can't do that anymore. It has to be a much more transparent process next time or I won't be doing it.
Quote: And here's where the really troublesome issue is: she's acting like she can do whatever she wants to - she's not holding herself to the same standard as you are, and she doesn't see any ramifications for this. Maybe the boat needs to be rocked.
My W FULLY knows what the potential ramifications are and I THINK she knows I have control over a lot of them. The problem is she just doesn't care right now, and worse than that, she sees those "ramifications" as pressure to conform to what she is "supposed" to do, i.e. stay married, be the "perfect mom", etc... and she is rebelling against ALL pressure right now. It does me no good to paint a picture. She already knows what it looks like, HATES the idea of it but is not detured in the slightest by it.
IF my W stays in this marriage, I am 100% convinced now that it will be ONLY because she sees a reason to do so, not because she sees reasons NOT to do so. That is a VERY important distinction for me to understand, and one that leads me right back to DB basics again.
GH
P.S. Ok, I must still have my night-light on, lol.
