Muddle's Muddy Waters

[MuddleThrough]

So what you are saying is that either because SHE told you so, or you inferred it yourself, you think this otherwise happily married W of yours decided one sunny morning that she would start an affair, THEN started to gain a distorted, or "different", more negative perspective on your M?

I certainly didn't mean to come across as if the M was great (or SHE thought it was great), and then she decided to see it as if it weren't. All I'm saying is that you often talk about your W trying to tell you that things weren't working before the A. I didn't have that experience until the A was going on. Sure, we had fights. Sure, my W said she wanted a D in the heat of one or two of the fights, but the reality of her world wasn't ever communicated to me in a direct and clear way - and I am sure, in my case, that was because it was a feeling that could not be understood and articulated. In fact, that has been the problem since the A has started - it took my W a long time to be able to articulate her thoughts on the M or her life because I don't think she clearly understood/understands them.

In fact, my W has said to me that she came to realize that she was fooling herself (actually, she said that we were fooling ourselves) about how good our R was. If we both thought it was, wasn't it? I guess we were only looking at the good when we thought that, but the fact that there's bad doesn't change the good - your choice to see the bad outweighing the good does.

Also, how often have you heard someone say they decided to start an A? Everyone says "it just happened". They were blindsided by the feelings. We all are cynical about this, but the simple fact is that the situation arose and it felt good, and was pursued. This is something that I think can't be ignored because it proves, to me at least, that the state of the M DIDN'T drive this, but rather, contributed to a general sense of unhappiness that left the WAS vulnerably to seeing the opportunity the A represents as a risk worth taking.

That does NOT mean they were happy, it just means that in my W's case, she learned a lot more about WHY she was unhappy where before she only knew she was.

I think this is my experience as well. But again, we operate on the premise that M can not and will not make either partner happy, so the lack of happiness or actual misery of the WAS is unfairly placed on the LBSs shoulders. Perhaps this is entirely done as a convenient mechanism to attempt to absolve themselves of the guilt they feel, but the REASONING of a WAS is certainly not logical or reliable.

I think we are both talking a lot about perspective here and I agree that if our premise is that perspective is everything and theirs is different AND valid, then we are basically on the same page.

Agreed. Just because it's different and valid does not mean that we have to agree with it, but we do have to accept it. Ain't it great how subjective reality can be?

I just fully accept the fact that for whatever reason, my W thought our marriage was "bad" enough or unfulfilling enough to have an affair.

I struggle with this, because I don't know that it's as simple as standing at a crossroads and saying "Hm, I could have an affair - let's see, was my marriage "bad" enough to warrant this? I think this is something that has to be figured out after the fact, and in a sense, the fact that the A is or has happened defines the M as bad enough for WAS, at least that's my opinion. Again, perspective, perspective. You see, had my W decided that she wouldn't pursue the A, the M would have had much more intrinsic value - because of her choice, not the other way around. Now the opposite is true for her - but she passes off the responsibility for her choice onto the M - something that in and of itself doesn't exist and therefore can not have any power over one's choices.

She was NOT happy and that is for many reasons, not just our marriage, this is true, but so too is it true that she chose to try to be fulfilled by a man, something that she had living with her already.

So, do you think that any man can have a successful M with any woman?

Something's wrong with that picture if you accept your permise that the marriage/R was "good" and they just made a choice to go another direction.

Well, I think I'm headed out onto a thin limb here, but what I said before about M not existing in and of itself comes into play here. It's our decisions that make a M. Our decisions about how to act and react. So the state of a M is entirely subjective and is in fact the choice at the moment - how you choose to see the M and how you choose to act in the moment. So the M is POTENTIAL, and not really anything at all. Your perspective is what makes it what it is - and of course history makes it FEEL like it is something fixed and unchangable. So yes, in a sense, their choice made the M bad, and took away some of the good potential.

You SEEM to be making my point here. I am more concerned about my W's perspective on things than any abstract philosophy on good and bad. To my W, our marriage was bad. Period. For me to think that it was good and simply in need of some patch-work would be, in my mind, discounting her perspective.

I disagree with you saying that to allow yourself to see the R the way you do would be discounting her perspective. Just because you don't agree with her perspective doesn't mean that you discount it. Look, I think it would be somewhat hypocritical if you REALLY thought that because her opinion was that the M was over and you DIDN'T pack her bags for her and help her leave, because you recognized the merits of your own perspective, even though it didn't jibe with your W's. I know that you don't see any intrinsic value on a R, because if a R could be intrinsically bad, then WE would be stupid to try and work on them. So just because she has that perspective AT THE MOMENT doesn't mean that the M is/was bad or will be viewed that way forever. Your perspective on what you are doing to the state of the M has absolutely nothing to do with your W's perspective. The reasons you are doing what you're doing may, but your understanding of what you are doing doesn't. Same thing with your lack of understanding of where your mutual expectations weren't being met.

She was ready to leave. She had her mental bags packed and you don't do that when there is a good situation that needs some work. You do that when you suffer through years of, yes, unfulfilled expectations and desires and decide to DO something about it.

This implies that people react to situations without any will at all. Their feelings require action. Sure, she had a reason, or an excuse, to leave. She didn't feel like she had much reason to stay either. I think you said it without meaning to, one's perspective in life determines whether you suffer through the same events that you could appreciate. She chose to be ready to leave - sure she had reasons on both sides. If she didn't have those reasons, do you think she wouldn't have made that choice? Maybe, maybe not. If you want to do something, you can ALWAYS find reasons.

in the end, the decision to have the affair and continue it for any length of time is a reflection on the quality of the marriage and thus there IS hope for reconciliation should the quality of the marriage be improved and the individual perspectives on it exposed and are addressed by each partner.

Agree and disagree. I think that blaming the decision to have and continue an A on the M is a way of having at least 50% control over the motivation. I don't think you have any. I think that for my W, a big part of the motivation for continuing the A is her personal self esteem - feeling that people expect her to fail so she's going to show them, on some level or other. I do absolutely agree that reconciliation is possible - and I for one am very optimistic about this - if both perspectives are thoroughly explored, and an agreement is forged that takes into account both perspectives and unifies life and marriage goals of the partners. This way, with each partner being true to their own view and part of the agreement, true fulfillment can be a reality.

In a "bad" marriage, I think one or both of the individuals are not able to grow and thus when one of them decides to try to grow, they find themselves "stuck". I know that's more about MY sitch than a universal but...

I agree with you here - but I would add to this that I think that almost all obstacles to growth are self imposed. Humans are incredibly resourceful creatures. So, in a sense you proved my point.

I think, as I said, in my personal case, the things that my W "expected" from our marriage were some of the same things I did yet neither of us ever took the time of effort to try to GET those things. We just too it for granted and ended up here.

I agree - it's all too easy to mis-prioritize energy. I know that in my sitch we didn't work towards anything, but rather we accepted it for what it was, as if it had a life of its own.

In general expectations are bad (oops, sorry)

Eh, they're a fact of life. I go to work in the morning, and I expect the office to be there Wait - in that example it is bad!

both people are working towards the same goal

This is the key. I think we accepted the M in and of itself. We didn't recognize that being married is a process, and we need to keep re-evaluating our goals.

it DID take this affair to wake me up to that fact.

I agree. Same for me. Glad it happened though - the waking up, I mean.

I only use the past mistakes in my marriage as a tool to understand what I don't want to do in the future.

Critical - use the past as a source of good to build on and "other stuff" to leave out.

P.S. Before someone accuses me of thinking too much, I only think about this stuff when I read something here. The rest of my day is spent actually LIVING, not thinking about how to live...or at least I WANT it to be, lol.

Well, this is living, isn't it?