Muddle's Muddy Waters

[MuddleThrough]

Sure, she could be lying but since she told me AFTER I had already basically figured it all out on my own, I suspect that I am right and I suspect my W was telling me the truth about the missing intimacy, my being gone too much, the lack of "attention" and all the rest.

You know, this strikes such a familiar chord with me - my W also talked about things that were missing, lack of fulfillment, etc. The lack of something, to me, can't ever be a bad thing, because by definition, it isn't anything at all. At most, it's unmet expectations, that may not have ever been properly communicated. We didn't beat our wives (at least I didn't ), so I still see it as things to be improved, but they weren't necessarily bad.
This perspective thing goes both ways. You and I had very different experiences with the way our Ws came to their opinions about their Ms. My W came to see things in such a negative light AFTER the A was in full swing. To me, this meant that the A had changed her perspective, and because she wanted out of the M in order to persue the A, she looked at our M from an angle she never did before. It took me some time to realize that this did not make her wrong about what she saw. Although her perspective and motivations caused her to veer more negatively when viewing an aspect of our M than she used to, and than I did and do, it doesn't change the fact that those things she's passing judgement on exist.

...and As do happen in good Ms.

Really? I think by definition an A, and I am not talking about a drunken one night stand, but an A of the sort we are usually talking about here, defines a bad marriage. I disagree with you. A's of that sort do NOT happen in "good" marriages...IMHO.

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I have read that before, but I'm sure you're well aware of the variety of opinions on As out there. I think you have to look at how you define good. No M is perfect, and even if you have wide open lines of communication, there are never any guarantees. To me, an A is all about personal choice. The person who chose to have the A, chose to have the A for their own reasons, whether it had to do with the M or not. I think that quite often, an A is an attempt to fill a void in oneself, one that can not be filled by marriage, or any relationship for that matter. It's quite possible for anyone to have this void in a good marriage if they are not happy with or in themselves. So, what's a good M then? Well, in theory, the best M is 2 HAPPY people living whole lives choosing to be together. I think the happiness is what prevents As - and as we all know, that's a personal responsibility.

You're right, I have no real idea that things would have changed IF I knew the real state of the marriage from her perspective. Actually, she tried to tell me and I never listened so in effect, no, thing were NOT different after I knew. I just kept on believing that my marriage was perfect because I refused to understand that to her, things were VERY different, and yes, bad.

Perspective is everything. You see what you want to see, on some level or another.

Well, again, we somewhat disagree. I don't think there is any way to 100% A-proof a marriage though some say there is. I think it IS possible to do a hell of a lot better job than I did in the first ten years of my marriage and I think that if I did that, and my W reciprocated that effort in any way, that we could do a lot to prevent each other from straying. Again, this comes down to the idea that A's happen in good marriages, which I don't believe but I think it's important for you to understand that I KNOW perspective is everything, and GOOD in a marriage IS subjective, as you say.

I think intrinsic to your statement is the idea that you both agree on what it takes to make a M work, and that you are both committed to doing the personal work to ensure that your lives are happy and whole, and that you maintain respect and love for your life together. This is essentially the same responsibility that we all took on when being M. What happened then? Did we have false expectations of what M would be? I think this is a big part of it.

Labeling them "bad" is just my way of categorizing those things which I believe need to change in my life.

Yes, of course this is what it comes down to: what does your perspective DO for you? What is the utility of the way you frame events in your life? I think some people need to be on the brink of disaster in order to "fix" something, and thinking of the old M as bad does that for you, motivating you to change it. At present, I would like to think of my M as what it is, with significant room to improve on a good thing. This allows me to be primarily motivated by love and not fear.