Quote: Well, I think it's nice to think that our Ws wouldn't have done what they did had the M been better - but, this is unknowable.
Well, I think it's nice to think that our Ws wouldn't have done what they did had the M been better - but, this is unknowable, and As do happen in good Ms
I don't think we are really arguing here, but I will make my argument (lol) directly about my sitch and my marriage. I KNOW because I have done the hard soul searching AND my W told me in no uncertain terms what motivated her to have an affair. Sure, she could be lying but since she told me AFTER I had already basically figured it all out on my own, I suspect that I am right and I suspect my W was telling me the truth about the missing intimacy, my being gone too much, the lack of "attention" and all the rest. It was PAINFULLY easy to see what was, yes, BAD in our marriage, just as it was very easy to see what was good.
No, there is no 100% guarantee that things would be different now if only I, ME alone had done things differently just like there's no guarantee that they will be different NOW with mainly me doing the work to change things.
Quote: ...and As do happen in good Ms.
Really? I think by definition an A, and I am not talking about a drunken one night stand, but an A of the sort we are usually talking about here, defines a bad marriage. I disagree with you. A's of that sort do NOT happen in "good" marriages...IMHO.
Quote: I guess this is also in some way and attempt at controlling your universe, by projecting your personal power into the past, saying that had you done something differently, your W wouldn't have made the choice she did, that your actions would have influenced her choice if you had been more aware of the state of your M. Maybe, maybe not.
You're right, I have no real idea that things would have changed IF I knew the real state of the marriage from her perspective. Actually, she tried to tell me and I never listened so in effect, no, thing were NOT different after I knew. I just kept on believing that my marriage was perfect because I refused to understand that to her, things were VERY different, and yes, bad.
I know I cannot undo the past, but I can learn from it and try not to repeat it. In my marriage, there were some very fundamental mistakes made by BOTH of us and I can only correct my part of that and hope she does the same. It's all I can do. I have no power over the past, and today, I understand I have little real power over her other than that of the power of influence.
Quote: This is something I fight with too, and I fight with the idea that should we reconcile, there is no way that I can A proof our M going forward, because I have no power over my W.
Well, again, we somewhat disagree. I don't think there is any way to 100% A-proof a marriage though some say there is. I think it IS possible to do a hell of a lot better job than I did in the first ten years of my marriage and I think that if I did that, and my W reciprocated that effort in any way, that we could do a lot to prevent each other from straying. Again, this comes down to the idea that A's happen in good marriages, which I don't believe but I think it's important for you to understand that I KNOW perspective is everything, and GOOD in a marriage IS subjective, as you say.
Quote: Should your W die today - God forbid - would you go through the rest of your life thinking you had a BAD marriage? No, I have no doubt that you would tell people that you had the incredible opportunity to know this wonderful woman intimately, and although your M left some things to be desired for both of you, it provided you with one of the best opportunities for self growth in your life. I know this is extreme, but I think it's so critical to live in the grey and avoid the illusions of black and white thinking.
Well, to use your example, how many funerals have you gone to where you knew for a fact that the person speaking HATED the person being laid to rest? I know I have seen that so I think your analogy is a bit unfair. EVERYONE speaks better of the dead. We are not talking about our spouses dying, we are talking about them cheating and while I have no doubt that any of our friends that know us and our sitch would say that our marriage is flawed and my W was wrong to cheat, none of them would say so at either of our funerals.
In the end, I think you and I are very similar and I too don't believe in black and white thinking. I live in the world of grey but there are certain aspects of my "old" marriage that are just this side of black in terms of MY perspective and I will work tirelessly to change MY contribution to those things. Labeling them "bad" is just my way of categorizing those things which I believe need to change in my life.
