In line with my post from earlier in the day - during my convo last night, W was talking about her fears - and I listened and validated her feelings. She then got a bit upset because I "wasn't saying anything" in response to any of this. I know that she expected a certain kind of response from me, and I didn't want to give it to her for reasons I already described, but should I have given some other response? I recognized all the thoughts I formulated at the moment to be attempts at controlling her feelings, and censored myself. In the old M, I would have simply told her this - that I was exercising self control because I noticed this sort of interaction was part of a bigger pattern that I think is not-so-healthy. I think this too would come across as judgemental and condescending, etc, so I'm glad I didn't say this. But I know I should have said SOMETHING. I know that she was taking a real risk trusting me - and I think she felt she had reason to regret telling me anything because she didn't get any return for risk she took. I told her that it was very difficult for me to listen to what she was talking about, but that I wanted to listen to her despite this. She still was a bit upset that I didn't have anything to say.
I guess now either SHE has to change her expectations, or she will continue to be disappointed that I'm not responding to her bids the way she expects me to. I'm not sure this is wise at this stage in the game because I think it might make her less comfortable, but it is in line with demonstrating I'm a stronger person.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
This is a tough spot for you to be in. Sure, you think things will be ok, but some part of you probably (forgive me for saying so) is thinking "it serves you right if the plane goes down", right? I don't mean you wish her harm exactly, just that you don't really feel the need to pat her on the back and make her feel "ok" about certain aspects of this R she has with the OM.
Then you have those feelings like "am I just being an a-hole and should I just be nice?"
Here's what I do. I almost never hold back in expressing something like reassurance of my W's safety if she ASKS me to do so. I won't simply offer that to her anymore. I used to do that and I think she thought of it as condescending, as if I was reassuring her because I thought she could not do anything without my blessing that it would be ok.
It's another of those fine lines. In your case last night, I guess I would say it would have been ok to say the plane SHOULD make it to it's destination but the problem is that in order for you to do that, you would probably have felt the need to add something in about how you don't agree with the trip, etc. You chose to keep quiet, and you even told her why you were doing it.
The bottom line (and there are a TON of those, eh?) is that she WILL have emotional responses to what you do, especially if it's not in line with what she wants to see or hear. Tough noogies. Sorry charlie. You have made it clear that there are just some things you can't be there for right now, but that you WILL be there if the situation changes. You both will have to take emotional risks if this is to work. You are taking most of them now, and when she starts, this will be the first one she faces...your sincerity in terms of your changes and your intentions towards her.
Well, it wasn't really about the plane thing - that I'm at peace with: I told her that I don't know any better than she does if it will happen. It's unlikely, but neither of us knows. I essentially told her that she could comfort herself if she wanted to, but that I wasn't going to.
The other part of the conversation, where she opened up to me regarding things she was worried about in going (one of the things was that he was trying to plan it for a week when his XGF is away - to which I told her "That must make you feel good!") was where I did very little responding. I wonder if it was more that the little hmms (space fillers that show you're paying attention) were missing and she felt like her concerns fell on dead ears. You're right - I did have the urge to tell her that I didn't want her to go, or that it would hurt me if she went, but I fought it. Although, at some point she said to me that she knew that I didn't want her to go, and I told her that she was right. At one point she even said that she wasn't going to go (kind of as punishment to me for not making her less nervous and fearful about the trip - if that makes any sense at all).
Now, the part of this that kills me - in some way I would be proud of her if she went and did this! I know it would be a big deal for her to do something like this on her own. I don't in any way agree with why, or like the idea of her doing it, but I can see the value in her following through with something on her own. It would be good for her - even better if she could apply this to a situation that wasn't so destructive.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: Now, the part of this that kills me - in some way I would be proud of her if she went and did this! I know it would be a big deal for her to do something like this on her own. I don't in any way agree with why, or like the idea of her doing it, but I can see the value in her following through with something on her own. It would be good for her - even better if she could apply this to a situation that wasn't so destructive.
Wow Muddle, that is a really empathetic thing to say, and with thinking like that, I really think you have a chance to do what YOU need to do in this sitch. You are starting to see why there rarely is no black and white in our sitches. Yes, they are cheating, and yes, that's wrong. There's no way around that, but like Always has been posting on another thread, there is SO much more to it than the affair that to focus on it, even to just focus on our side of it is really short sighted. I think too many people would be terrified of even thinking what you thought and even more repulsed to post it in public but you know what, to me, it demonstrates that you "get it". You understand that this is NOT about you any more than what you are doing is all about her. You each are on a journey, and as you say, it would be a HELL of a lot better for both of you if hers were not so destructive but those are the choices she's making and in some way, as you point out, that must feel empowering to her. Now if she will only use that power for the good of herself AND your marriage things would improve VERY fast...but alas...that time is not here.
Please, keep your focus, keep thinking and keep improving YOUR outlook on life. Your compassion is wonderful to see, and especially since you have discovered that it takes NOTHING away from your self-esteem to feel empathy and compassion for the woman you love, even if she's breaking your heart right now.
Thanks GH. That's a big part of the difficulty here - I DO and have tried to always see things from her perspective. I know there's been far too much judgement on my part, but I have tried to always see it from her side. This has no bearing on how she sees me, and in the end I think we are all learning that we are cementing our values and learning that acting on them is a very personal thing that has little to do with how others see us, and everything to do with how we see ourselves (this of course influences how others see us).
This is the essence of detachment to me: removing selfishness from interactions, i.e., being able to view a situation for what it is, regardless of its impact on me. I guess it's a very spiritual concept, and I think our journey is a very spiritual one, but it's also a quest for truth. I think this is another one of those hugely divergent planes between us and our WASs. They seek to escape life in a fantasy while we seek to truly understand the dynamic of our reality and to accept and improve it.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: This has no bearing on how she sees me, and in the end I think we are all learning that we are cementing our values and learning that acting on them is a very personal thing that has little to do with how others see us, and everything to do with how we see ourselves (this of course influences how others see us).
Yes. I think this is very true.
Quote: This is the essence of detachment to me: removing selfishness from interactions, i.e., being able to view a situation for what it is, regardless of its impact on me. I guess it's a very spiritual concept, and I think our journey is a very spiritual one, but it's also a quest for truth.
I think this too is very true, and as we all know, truth is wonderfully subjective.
Quote: I think this is another one of those hugely divergent planes between us and our WASs. They seek to escape life in a fantasy while we seek to truly understand the dynamic of our reality and to accept and improve it.
Very nice. I really like this concept. Keep thinking!
Not a whole lot to report today. Things have been pretty calm and steady - although a few nights ago, W told me I looked like I needed a hug, and hugged me and kissed me goodnight - something she hasn't done in a while. I couldn't just take it for what it was, I was looking at her thinking - man, you must be feeling guilty for something.
On another note, I'm having some difficulty with one of her friends - one that's supporting her in this whole A thing. I have always had resentment issues because the two of them tend to reinforce the most negative qualities in each other and they have a disfunctional codependant relationship with each other. I have always resented her to some degree because she doesn't have a responsible bone in her body and when my W hangs out with her she always seems to act more entitled and like nothing matters beyond having fun. I have always felt my R with my W suffers whenever the two of them are close. I have accepted that my W makes her own decisions, so it's not really a control thing that I'm worried about (although I have no doubt that this friend is pushing the whole fantasy of being in love thing and living vicariously through it) it's more that I'm even more resentful of her when she's around now. She makes herself at home in our house, helping herself to food, taking naps on our bed without asking - really entitled, so there's plenty in her behavior that I don't like already. Now that I know about how supportive she is of my W I know I must be giving off PA vibes while she's there, and I don't really know how to address this. I had a conversation ith her regarding the A, which I posted about a short time ago - she was trying to convince me that I should give up hope and move on, all in an effort to free my W up to pursue this other R. I can't and won't come out and tell her what I think about her - I don't think there's any real need for that, but I need to control my behavior better when she's around, or make a point of not being around when she is. Trouble is, now that she's cheerleading for my W, W has her over all the time. Any thoughts?
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Alright - I guess this is where all the guilt is coming from: at lunch my W told me "I think we need to talk about my plans" - to which I told her OK, but she seemed a little upset that I wasn't affected by her statement. In fact, she gave me a couple of digs about how I seemed like I wasn't really acknowledging it. I asked her if she wanted to talk about it right then - she said she didn't - and then asked her how "OK" wasn't enough of an acknowledgement. Anyway - now that I'm away from there, I'm finding myself slipping. I am letting this affect me - in fact, I am doing it to myself by thinking these thoughts. I know I can control this - but to me, this is a sort of threshold - a line that hasn't yet been crossed. Any twisted innocence there was in it "JUST" being an EA is going to be lost. I guess the feeling I have had up until now is I'll believe it when I see it, about her going. I'll deal with it then. I'm trying hard not to set myself up by thinking she's not going to go, but rather that I shouldn't deal with anything unless it's actually happening. I can't regard their intentions, that have nothing to do with me, as real. So now I'm stewing a bit. I DON'T want to be p/a here, but I also don't want to contribute to her going at all. The issue really is going to be who will watch our son while she's gone. I think she expects me to take a week off of work to do this, but I'm not sure that I agree with this in any way. This is her deal, and she needs to take care of the whole thing herself - I'm not going to absolve her of her responsibilities in the name of "opening the gate". I think this really is protecting her from the consequences of her actions, thereby enabling her. Does this sound like a fear induced rationalization to you? I know it makes a certain amount of rational sense, but I don't want to seem like I'm trying to control her. I know she will take any opportunity to tell me that I'm doing just that, but I'm not sure where exactly in all this grey to draw the line.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
To me, you do NOT owe her anything in terms of being a babysitter while she goes to sow her oats. IF, and that's a BIG IF, you two somehow had a previous arrangement, agreed to before this trip came up, where you were to look after the kids for this week, then fine, but otherwise, as you said, welcome to the wonderful world of being a single parent. You can't just take trips and expect your ex-partner to pick up the slack. You actually have to plan for these things and then IF your ex is open to it, MAYBE they will accommodate your wishes...maybe not.
I am not saying to try to spite her but like I said, why do you owe her anything more than accepting that she's making decisions for herself? That's already MUCH more than a lot of people would be willing to do. If she wants to see your lack of "help" as trying to prevent her from going, well, I don't know how much that can be helped. If she really wants to go then she has to act like a big girl and arrange for care for her kids the times you can't do it because of work or whatever.
I know this is a tough spot. It's NOT that cut and dried because you are torn between acting "as if" and enabling her. It's a spot we are in a lot it seems. It SEEMS to me that there is a line here but I really think this is one of those times where only you truly know enough to make this decision.
Thanks for your perspective, GH. I had the talk last night - it was actually quite interesting. She had had a couple of glasses of wine by the time she started talking to me. She's still really wary of me, and so she was asking again whether I'll tell my parents or his parents when she goes. I assured her that I wouldn't - for the first time in a real way. I then told her that although I really didn't like the reasons she was doing what she was doing, I really liked the fact that she was facing her personal demons and taking control of them in order to persue her happiness. The whole conversation moved her, and we were physically much closer than we have been in a long time. There was a lot of passionate kissing, etc. And then, of course, she has to tell me that she loves me, but she's not in love with me, that she loves me, but not the way I want her to. I told her that I alone can know how I want her to love me. I think it's interesting that there's any passion coming from her if she really doesn't want to have a husband/wife relationship with me, but I'm not going to fight with her about this. She openly acknowledged that my "letting her go" was making her feel more close to me, and that it would make it more difficult for her to go because she has that much more reason to feel guilty. She was crying and upset about how much damage this was all doing, saying things like "what happened to us?", "I'm sorry I fell in love with someone else", "I'm sorry I'm hurting you, I don't want to hurt you and our son." I tried to validate her pain and guilt (things that CLEARLY were coming out of her mouth) and she reacted by telling me that she didn't feel guilty. Interesting.
Oh, and also - she told me that she has been reading my journal! I think there are two ways to take this: 1. that she's interested in me, what I'm thinking and what I'm doing because there's some mystery now or 2. she's scared that I'm being two faced with her and that I'll ruin her plans at the first opportunity and she might glean some insight into my state of mind. I'm betting on the 1st.
So, needless to say - there's a bit of encouraging behavior on her part. She's still so deeply entrenched in this that I'm sure we still have a long way to go. Even though it felt really good to be close again last night, I KNOW that my happiness isn't intertwined with her perspective on me because I'm no less happy today than I was yesterday. This to me spells serious progress on my part.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
