Muddle's Muddy Waters

[MuddleThrough]

That what she SAYS she wants RIGHT NOW.

Yeah, so how do I validate this without being condescending? I know feelings can and do change - they're not facts, but are relative to circumstances and actions. I think this is the only reason that we're all still here - the idea that feelings can and do change. What makes it so difficult for me is the idea that we are waiting for our WASs to realize this, and recognize that it's worth trying to do the right thing in an attempt to reclaim those feelings we once had, or to accept new, different feelings as right.

To me this is all about the fact that she still feels a certain amount of codependency towards you and by you still clinging to hope, it somehow obligates her to at least run a little slower, take a look back every now and then. Like you said, she will see what she wants to see.

Agreed - and she's not making much progress in attempting to rid her life of her dependancy. It's interesting to look at it now because if she's leaving me, then this needs to happen, but now that I'm in a different place, I'd rather not settle into a new relationship where my W is burdening me with her dependancy. It's almost like I'm looking for her to get her act together and get almost through the door and then decide to stay.

Again, same issues with my W though I don't really see how pulling back from "taking care" of her considering the sitch is treating her like a child. I see the opposite as true. Letting her be her own woman, and letting go enough so she feels 100% of the responsibility for her life is treating her like an adult.

Convoluted, I know, but it makes sense in some way. By her viewing my enabling/supporting her codependancy as me, the more whole person caring for a less whole person rather than as me, the whole person, choosing do do what was requested by another whole, complete person, she sees me as treating her like a child, or views me as her father (more accurate to me). So, by showing her that I have the power to stop assisting her, rather than she deciding that she doesn't want or need my care anymore, would be confirming that I have some power over her.

The bottom line is that your "treatment" of her should no longer be the issue if she is truly out of the R, right? Why should she care how you "treat" her or what you "allow" in terms of her life and decisions? If she is truly "detaching" from YOU, then why so much concern from her?

My point is that as long as she continues to give you credit/blame for things in her life, she is still IN your life. Someday she'll figure out that you no more control her, nor WANT to, than she controls you. THEN you can make some real progress.

This is my hope too - although it's such a huge leap of faith to think that my W will WANT to work through anything. I guess that's why we HAVE to invest in this for ourselves only, because we will be better people for having stuck this out and learned deeply about ourselves. In the end, that's what any relationship is about, self exploration.

I know my W is still invested in this R, I know she's fighting a really painful, difficult battle withing herself. It's interesting to see that although it seems like detachment is a common goal between us, she seems to be trying to utilize anger and resentment to justify breaking those bonds - which in some way reinforces them because there's still passion involved.

Interesting - I spoke with W a few minutes ago, asked her if she could investigate borrowing her mom's car to pick up our son from camp in the middle of July because I am going to a meeting out of town. Her reaction was "what if I'm away then?" meaning, what if I'm in Europe screwing your cousin then? - oh yeah, and then she said "See, your plans are always more important!".

[grasshopper]

Muddle, this really addresses the last little bit of your post, but it's truly scary how similar a lot of our lives and W's are...more on that later...

Yeah, so how do I validate this without being condescending?

You do it by not being condescending. Sorry to seem to be a smart-a$$ but I'm not. If you truly value her point of view, however temporary it may be, then you can validate her and allow the conversation to move on. The trick is to REALLY value what she's saying simply because it's what SHE believes and not FEEL condescending or personally attacked by it. MUCH easier said than done. Trust me, I know.

What makes it so difficult for me is the idea that we are waiting for our WASs to realize this, and recognize that it's worth trying to do the right thing in an attempt to reclaim those feelings we once had, or to accept new, different feelings as right.

Yep, this is the hard part, and also where a lot of the "marriage saving" plans differ. Some say to force this decision or "acceptance", and others, like DB suggest that we can't force them to see us in this new light, or accept their cheating as "wrong" before they come to that conclusion themselves.

For me personally, I have accepted the DB idea that forcing my W to see these new "truths" as self-evident would be impossible. She has to get there on her own, with maybe only VERY subtly nudging from me. Any attempt to be heavy handed would only be more of the same of the last 10 years from me. This I KNOW to be the truth.

although it's such a huge leap of faith to think that my W will WANT to work through anything. I guess that's why we HAVE to invest in this for ourselves only, because we will be better people for having stuck this out and learned deeply about ourselves. In the end, that's what any relationship is about, self exploration.

Yes, it is. This whole process, as is any other that tries to predict with ANY certainty what another human being will do in a certain situation, is a HUGE leap of faith, but when we understand that really, the only part that is a leap is the part about saving the marriage, we begin to understand what the REAL purpose of this is. Yes, the main motivating factor IS saving our marriages but in the end, as you say, it's all about learning what WE want and then learning how to express that in ways we never even came close to understanding before all this.

I know my W is still invested in this R, I know she's fighting a really painful, difficult battle within herself. It's interesting to see that although it seems like detachment is a common goal between us, she seems to be trying to utilize anger and resentment to justify breaking those bonds - which in some way reinforces them because there's still passion involved.

To me, this is a really important thing to understand, both so you have compassion for W and also so you don't do the same thing. I see SO many people here never get to this point. They, themselves, use anger and resentment as the only tools they think they have to detach. They never get that it's simply a choice to be made, and then action to be taken. Detaching is hard, true, but to me, not nearly as hard as walking away from my marriage. If it takes me having to LOVINGLY detach from my W to move forward, then so be it, but I will NOT use anger to that end. It's not real then, any more than it is when times are good. True detachment MUST be self-motivated.

Interesting - I spoke with W a few minutes ago, asked her if she could investigate borrowing her mom's car to pick up our son from camp in the middle of July because I am going to a meeting out of town. Her reaction was "what if I'm away then?" meaning, what if I'm in Europe screwing your cousin then? - oh yeah, and then she said "See, your plans are always more important!".

Ah, you are married to my W...lol. I get this kind of thing all the time. Recently when I decided to tell how I FEEL and what I WANT, she told me "you see, it's always about what YOU want and need." And they say that you can't blame someone for how they feel...try telling my W that.

I feel your pain here. About the only thing to do then is to set a schedule that you both agree to so that nobody has to check with anyone before making plans. Sucks but if that's the way she want's it...

Muddle, I think you're doing fine. You are asking the right questions and mostly, you're keeping your struggle internal, which is the most important struggle for any of us to win.

GH

[MuddleThrough]

Alright, I had a sorta rough one last night/this morning: I got home to find my W standing at the calendar, with the IM screen open, so she was talking to my cousin. I could tell from the way she was counting days on the calendar, or rather I assumed, that she was checking to make sure she wouldn't have her period on a certain week they were trying to plan for. This got me a bit and I said kind of sarcasticly "let me guess what you're doing" and then quickly caught myself and backed off. I didn't want to get into it, but I let myself react emotionally. It kind of stuck with me for the rest of the evening. I was exhausted to begin with, so I did have that as an excuse for behaving a little differently. I didn't allow myself to be hurt or to dwell in it like I have in the past - and I certainly didn't want to address what I was thinking with my W, even though she tried to ask me a couple of times.
Anyway, today is our son's 4th birthday, so last night I ran around trying to find streamers, etc. We were sitting upstairs watching TV when my W decided to run down and get the laundry. I finished what I was doing, and then grabbed the streamers, thinking that I would get a headstart putting them up, and blowing up balloons. Well, I got downstairs and she was on the computer, typing an email. She got annoyed, telling me that I followed her down there. I validated her feelings, and told her that I wasn't down there because of her - and then left her alone to finish. This annoyed me a bit because had she been doing what she said she was down there to do, it wouldn't have made the slightest difference to her if I came down - but because she lied to me and then expected me to know and respect her space, I'm somehow to blame for making her uncomfortable. I know that's all her, guilt, shame and discomfort - and I tried to assure her that I understood her frustration, and that it felt like I followed her down there. Anyway, fast forward to this morning - I got up late, turned off the alarm, didn't make it to the gym (which is ok this morning because I have a bit of an injury that could use a little more rest - I'll go tonight). Our son came into our bed and she was still trying to sleep. I turned the TV on for our son, made some coffee and went downstairs to check email. After coming back up, W was angry and talking about how self centered I am, that I got up late and I only did for myself - I usually at least make our son's bed and I hadn't even done that. She kept telling me that I was down there for 20 minutes - no way - and that on our son's birthday I should have been doing this, or should have been doing that. I tried to be upbeat and not argue with her - I've been doing this since this all started, so we have these one sided arguments - especially since I don't think there's any good reason for doing this in front of our son. I mentioned that it probably wasn't the best idea to be having this conversation in front of him, and her reaction was "I wouldn't be like this if you hadn't done. . ." Man, if only I could make her feel good things these days, lol. She even made a point of saying that she really didn't like me. So we had a sort of interesting morning - things did go over ok, and our son was really happy, but I just got such a nasty feeling from her lack of self control, and my lack of ability to stop the conversation from continuing in the vein it was in. I know appeasing her doesn't work, but what other option do I have? I guess this really is a somewhat subtle way of trying to control my W's behavior?

I know this whole process is about finding myself and becoming the person that I think I should be, becoming a husband that lives and acts like I should. In saying this, I know that I'm the only one who can determine how this should look, and whether I'm on track meeting my goals or not. I just wish that some of the feedback I got from my W reinforced my feeling that I'm making progress. I feel that we are further and further away. I remember in the first weeks when this all came out how close we still were - she even slept with her arms around me. Now she doesn't want to even come close. I know I can't use her actions as a way to measure progress, but I can't help feeling like I'm doing something wrong at all times when I'm around her.

[grasshopper]

Muddle, I feel for you. I know our side of this is confusing as hell and I feel a lot of what you're feeling right now. I am blamed for everything too and don't know for sure if my "validation" of her feelings helps or hurts. What I do know is that while I may not be becoming the perfect husband, I am becoming more like the man I want to be. The problem is that we all start this DB process believing that our W's really loved who we WERE before years of marriage, stress, kids, etc, changed us. We feel that when we achieve that holy grail of regression back to the "men we once were" they will see this and return to our open, and likely bulked arms (because we ALL go back to the gym, don't we, lol).

The sad fact is that the men we want to be MAY not be the man they want, especially if they actually WANT someone who is weak and unsure of themselves. I don't think ANYONE really wants that, but I do think that sometimes THEY THINK they do and that's enough for them to lash out at us when they see our strength returning.

We try SO hard to be these independent, validating men, assuming that the OM's are everything that we're not, or WEREN'T in the latter parts of our marriages. I think it's closer to the truth to say that the OM's are just more like what our W's THINK they want but not necessarily better men at all. After all, they have one fatal character flaw...they need to be with a married woman...

Keep your chin up and maybe someday you'll get your chance to set her straight, either through words or actions. You ARE NOT to blame for all this, no matter what she says. You know that and so do I...now we just have to work on her!

GH

[MuddleThrough]

I appreciate your sentiment. I can't imagine regressing back to that person I was, and I can't imagine my W wants me to either. But it is interesting that she told me in the beginning: "He reminds me so much of you". I'm not sure where this falls on the strength spectrum, whether he's stonger than I am, or not, in her eyes. And, in I'm starting to be able to say that I honestly don't care. You're right, this guy has a character flaw - more than one, I should say - and I'm really not concerned that she's found someone great that I should be jealous of. She hasn't. Does her love her? Is it love to put someone in a position where they have to walk away from their family in a way they MIGHT later regret? Not in my book - that speaks to me of pure selfish desire. Nothing compassionate or altruistic about it. So, I have little to no concern about their relationship relative to mine. Although, I do have wonder what it is that he is fulfilling in her - is it the simple fact that he wants her so badly that he's willing to be this bad guy to get her? Is it that he has a life, and isn't tied down to obligations that aren't of his own making?
I think in life, we all start out somewhere, with dreams and a certain perspective, and then as one gets caught up in all the stress of daily life, we fail to maintain this perspective. In my sitch, I think this has a great deal to do with why we are where we are - I haven't implemented consistently the way of life that my thinking had projected. Again, this might be me giving myself too much credit for our issues. But in the end we are what we make out of life, right? This is life - there's almost no sense in trying to understand why it is, but rather the focus should be on what can we do with it. I think we all get caught up in the same kind of thinking our WASs do - if only they would turn around and decide to love us again, everything will be all better. If we fixate on the problems, that's all we'll see in life. We are all trying hard to focus on solutions to problems - and we need to be sure that we focus on the biggest problem of all, that we are alive, and we decide what we do with this life - because where we put our energy determines what we see. If all we see if the problem of our marriage, that's all our life will be. I can see that this A is my W's life right now. It's what she lives for. Anything I have done that impacted it was done to her life.
On another note - it's so difficult for me to watch my wife make choices that involve and potentially damage our son. I know she resents the hell out him for being here preventing her from obtaining this wonderful fantasy life she has created. Through her lack of self control, I see her communicate values to him that I don't agree with. She has hit me in front of him (this was a particularly nasty event in the car one day, and the next day he hit her) - and neither of us think hitting is ok. She argues, and berates me in front of him. It seems she is so impulsive and out of control, and I'm too in control to stand up for myself, because I don't want to fuel an argument. I don't want this to be a dynamic that my son sees as normal. I know my W is in a place right now where she feels she has done so much for everyone else, and nothing for herself, so she feels entitled to putting herself first, even when it is detrimental to our son. I know I can't control her - but I see her doing so much damage to him, and I don't know what hope I have of being a buffer, or somehow minimizing this damage. I don't see divorce as remedying this in any way. I want my son to understand that adults work through problems and don't try and run away from them.

[MuddleThrough]

Another little thought buzzing around in my head - she said to me the other day "just ignore it and it will go away". I'm not positive that she's refering to my approach to the A, but it seems to apply. Well, in a sense that's what's happening. I think she wants this to be bigger than I'm making it to her. It's clearly the M that I want to change and improve, not the A. Sure that's a problem, but it's not something I have any control over. So, if I do ignore it, what difference does it make to her? Does she feel that she gets some power or control through doing this? Does this warrant an explaination of my perspective? GH, you told me you thought I talked to my W too much about things, and I guess this is just one of those things she should wonder about. I guess I'm still far too concerned with what she thinks, and wanting to set her straight.

[grasshopper]

Does this warrant an explaination of my perspective? GH, you told me you thought I talked to my W too much about things, and I guess this is just one of those things she should wonder about. I guess I'm still far too concerned with what she thinks, and wanting to set her straight.

I have the same problem and I fail sometimes in keeping things to myself. All I can say is that no matter WHAT you say, she's likely to form her own opinion about what you are doing. She's going to paint you passive, or as "not caring" and there's not much you can do about it. If you try to explain things to her, she's either going to take it as a lie or a desperate attempty to get her to "understand" and therefore, come to her senses.

I know you long to be understood. I do too, and I believe that my W has little clue what I am doing right now. Is that good for my sitch? I don't know. Sometimes I think it is and other times, like now, I think not. What I do know is from the lips of my W I was told that R talks and pressure WILL NOT work, and will push her away, so since this agrees with my DB ideas, I honor that request. It's all I can do. It's all I KNOW to do.

GH

[MuddleThrough]

Ok - interesting conversation, right in line with what we were just talking about, happened last night. W started talking about how she's starting to get really nervous about going to Europe by herself. She's nervous about flying, and about all sorts of other stuff. I listened to her, validated her feelings, but didn't reassure her that things were going to be ok. She got a little upset that I didn't. Anyway, she got to the point where she said "What if the plane blows up?" to which I responded "good point, that's a possibility, and you don't have any life insurance coverage". She got a little more upset, and actually told me that I was "supposed" to tell her that the plane wasn't going to blow up. I told her that she knew that already, thinking to myself - your emotions are not my responsibility. Anyway, this went on for a little while, with W asking me to reassure her that the plane wouldn't blow up - and I wouldn't do it. Does it sound like I'm taking this too far? I know that I wasn't being manipulative trying to make her more afraid of the trip, in fact I wasn't trying to MAKE her feel or think anything. I think this really frustrated her - to the point where she got upset and took her pillow and said she was going to sleep downstairs (she then came back up some time later upset that I hadn't followed her down or tried to convince her not to go).

On another note in the same conversation, she said she wasn't going to go. She then started talking about staying with me and how it would be the same as it was. My response was "if that's what you choose" knowing that I'm not the same, I don't think the same and I don't have the same standards I did before this all started, so there's NO WAY we could go back to the same relationship. She then said that she couldn't improve herself while in this relationship - that we just don't have the resources (for things like a second car, etc). This got me, because it just shows how her thinking is: I'm in a trap, gotta get out, anything will be better than this, the problems in here don't exist out there. Sorry, but divorced people have a LOWER standard of living than married people. I didn't tell her this, but I'm sure she'll figure it out sooner or later.

GH, what you say your W told you about how to deal with the A is something I struggle with, and have struggled with since the beginning of my sitch. My W said similar things, but my thinking at the time was that not putting pressure on her would make escaping in this fantasy she created that much easier. I always felt that her talking about "pushing me away" was manipulation - her way of punishing me for doing things that she didn't want me to. Regardless, it had the same effect. I'm not sure if it's more a desire to be understood on my part, or concern that I might be misunderstood and the thinking behind my actions misinterpretted. My Ws biggest complaints with me these days is that I have all the good intentions in the world, but that my decisions always turn out bad. Case in point - yesterday, we drove into the city to take our son to the Children's Museum for his birthday. Heading down, we hit some nasty traffic. I divert to another highway, more traffic. So, it takes us twice as long as it should have. My fault. My bad decisions. On the way home, similar story. My W is going nuts in the car because it's taking so long. And it's all my fault. I'm a horrible person for getting us stuck in traffic. If I had only decided to take a different road/street/highway, this wouldn't have happened. My reaction at some point (for the most part I validated her frustration, took no responsibility, didn't argue) was that my intention was to get home without it taking longer than it had to, that I couldn't have anticipated where the traffic would be. "Oh, you always have good intentions, you never INTEND things to go this way, but somehow they always do". Oh well. I know it's not mature behavior on her part and that I shouldn't give it a second thought, but it makes me think.

[grasshopper]

To me, you seem to be doing the right thing. I don't think it's EVER on us to make this thing they're doing any easier. That's NOT the same as forcing them to stop.

She then started talking about staying with me and how it would be the same as it was. My response was "if that's what you choose" knowing that I'm not the same, I don't think the same and I don't have the same standards I did before this all started, so there's NO WAY we could go back to the same relationship.

Ok, so now she's thinking of the possibilities, good. At least this shows she's thinking about things. I too have said the same thing about ME being different and that no matter what I could not accept the same "old" marriage. To this point, I am not doing really well with that. I have slipped back into the "old" marriage a bit and I am working to get out of that rut. The point is that I think you are right. You WON'T, CAN'T go back. Who you are, what you now know about relationships and marriage won't let you. Your consistency in action will prove that to her over time.

GH, what you say your W told you about how to deal with the A is something I struggle with, and have struggled with since the beginning of my sitch. My W said similar things, but my thinking at the time was that not putting pressure on her would make escaping in this fantasy she created that much easier. I always felt that....

Could you clarify this? I re-read it a couple times and I can't tell if you are saying that "letting" the A continue has worked, or has not, or if I missed the point altogether.

As for the last bit about everything being your fault, I'm right there with you. To me though, it's more about the fact that when I made decisions in the past, and that was rare because I often deferred to her on most things, I was not confident myself, so I instilled a lack of confidence in her. If I really OWNED my decisions, like I hope I do now, I think things would be better.

Take for example a similar, almost the same story as yours. We were taking a trip to the courthouse for my W's case. She was really worried about getting there on time. I decided to take a different way to get there. Immediately she started in on me about "won't that take longer" and "you always do this and it never works out". Instead of getting defensive or just saying "fine, we'll go your way" like I used to, I simply said "the traffic WILL be bad on xxx road and this way we'll miss that. We may or may not get there faster but at least this way I know we'll get there on time and that's the most important thing." All said with a smile.

I can't tell you how big a 180 that is for me because that sitch is one of my triggers. I used to get SO pissed at her for that kind of thing and more fights probably started that way than any other way between us.

All I am saying is that they can try to paint us as idiots and people who can't make a decision to save their lives, but we can't allow ourselves to buy into that. The fact of the matter is that they probably would not do any better under the circumstances.

GH

[MuddleThrough]

Thanks GH. I think my refusal to tell her what she wanted to hear went deeper than just the particulars of the conversation. I was really thinking about detachment while I said that, and when she asked me why I wouldn't tell her what she wanted to hear I had a very hard time not saying to her "because I refuse to be resposible for your feelings any longer. I think that's one of the issues in our relationship, and I am changing the dynamic of this now." - trouble is, I couldn't come up with an alternate reason for this either. But basically, she kept telling me I was letting her down for not "making" her feel better. I just want to be sure that this isn't PA behavior (I REALLY don't think so, but sometimes things come across as something other than you intend them to). As for slipping back into the old marriage - I have no idea what to expect IF I get another chance at this, but I'm sure this will happen. I know a part of the problem in our marriage is that ruts were created. They're still there. My W has told me on a couple of occasions that she thought the only way she could come back to our M is if we were separated - that's the only way she could feel she had the choice to. She has been thinking about this option, and she acknowledged last night that in her fantasy, she discounted a lot of the complications of reality. Specifically, she was talking about taking the trip and she said that she was always just thinking of the simple "I just want to be with him" stuff and not taking into account that she would be feeling guilty, wondering what our son was thinking, worrying about me, worrying about what would happen while she was there, etc etc. She used to think it was all so simple and now is realizing that it's not.
The issue with the "bad decision" thing: I think it has to do with self esteem. I have no question in my mind that regardless of the decision I made (whether bad or good) the fact that we ended up in worse traffic is not my fault, but to my W, who has no control over the situation and feels the need to have control, blaming satisfies this need to some degree or another. It gives her the opportunity to boost her ego/self esteem by saying "YOU didn't do this right - if I had the opportunity to do it, I would have done better." I think this is self destructive, because it's not grounded in reality. I remember reading something about self esteem issues in relationships, and one of the things that tends to happen is that negativity is turned outwards towards the intimate partner because the fear of being seen as helpless and fearful (as the person sees themself) is overwhelming. No matter how much this other person loves them, their fear overcomes this. The only real way to improve self esteem is through consistent follow through of challenging actions. Setting goals and accomplishing them. So I guess in the enabling dept, I have been a crutch for my W. I can either wait for her to decide to stop using the crutch, or I can decide to stop being the crutch. I'm just not sure whether my decision to stop being the crutch is disrespectful to her. Ok, I'm rambling a bit here.

In response to your request for clarification, GH, I'm not talking about tactics in an emprical sense. Nothing has worked or not worked to this point, as the sitch is still ongoing. Things might be more/less comfortable, but I don't think that's in any way an indicator of strategic success. Let me try and explain a little better: the romantic love/infatuation of an affair impacts brain chemistry in such a way as to create a euphoric state. This state, not unlike those created through drug use, is a very pleasant place to be, especially if you have been dwelling on problems for a long time. A person who experiences such pleasure wants to continue to feel that. They are looking for ways to have their world cooperate to enable them to dwell in this place as often and as long as possible. So we sort of enable their escape by not opposing it strongly. So, I guess what I'm saying is that I have these conflicted approaches to the sitch - one that says "I have no control over my W's actions, and this thing has to play itself out, she has to get bored of the high she's been getting and realize that she wants something more mature" and on the other hand, I felt the need to strongly express my disapproval. I know that my expression of disapproval and resistance has reinforced her "it might be right for me" attitude, and the right/wrong dynamic of our R to begin with makes her feel it's even more important to prove herself right here, so it probably is causing her to somewhat push herself further than she might have otherwise. Although, one of the benefits here is that they are extending themselves on faulty logic, and the further out they go, the more flimsy that logic becomes. Often people need to hit rock bottom in before they are willing to accept that they need to change, and by going out on the fantasy limb beyond the point of no return positions this person in a place where falling is inevitable.