Muddle, this really addresses the last little bit of your post, but it's truly scary how similar a lot of our lives and W's are...more on that later...
Quote: Yeah, so how do I validate this without being condescending?
You do it by not being condescending. Sorry to seem to be a smart-a$$ but I'm not. If you truly value her point of view, however temporary it may be, then you can validate her and allow the conversation to move on. The trick is to REALLY value what she's saying simply because it's what SHE believes and not FEEL condescending or personally attacked by it. MUCH easier said than done. Trust me, I know.
Quote: What makes it so difficult for me is the idea that we are waiting for our WASs to realize this, and recognize that it's worth trying to do the right thing in an attempt to reclaim those feelings we once had, or to accept new, different feelings as right.
Yep, this is the hard part, and also where a lot of the "marriage saving" plans differ. Some say to force this decision or "acceptance", and others, like DB suggest that we can't force them to see us in this new light, or accept their cheating as "wrong" before they come to that conclusion themselves.
For me personally, I have accepted the DB idea that forcing my W to see these new "truths" as self-evident would be impossible. She has to get there on her own, with maybe only VERY subtly nudging from me. Any attempt to be heavy handed would only be more of the same of the last 10 years from me. This I KNOW to be the truth.
Quote: although it's such a huge leap of faith to think that my W will WANT to work through anything. I guess that's why we HAVE to invest in this for ourselves only, because we will be better people for having stuck this out and learned deeply about ourselves. In the end, that's what any relationship is about, self exploration.
Yes, it is. This whole process, as is any other that tries to predict with ANY certainty what another human being will do in a certain situation, is a HUGE leap of faith, but when we understand that really, the only part that is a leap is the part about saving the marriage, we begin to understand what the REAL purpose of this is. Yes, the main motivating factor IS saving our marriages but in the end, as you say, it's all about learning what WE want and then learning how to express that in ways we never even came close to understanding before all this.
Quote: I know my W is still invested in this R, I know she's fighting a really painful, difficult battle within herself. It's interesting to see that although it seems like detachment is a common goal between us, she seems to be trying to utilize anger and resentment to justify breaking those bonds - which in some way reinforces them because there's still passion involved.
To me, this is a really important thing to understand, both so you have compassion for W and also so you don't do the same thing. I see SO many people here never get to this point. They, themselves, use anger and resentment as the only tools they think they have to detach. They never get that it's simply a choice to be made, and then action to be taken. Detaching is hard, true, but to me, not nearly as hard as walking away from my marriage. If it takes me having to LOVINGLY detach from my W to move forward, then so be it, but I will NOT use anger to that end. It's not real then, any more than it is when times are good. True detachment MUST be self-motivated.
Quote: Interesting - I spoke with W a few minutes ago, asked her if she could investigate borrowing her mom's car to pick up our son from camp in the middle of July because I am going to a meeting out of town. Her reaction was "what if I'm away then?" meaning, what if I'm in Europe screwing your cousin then? - oh yeah, and then she said "See, your plans are always more important!".
Ah, you are married to my W...lol. I get this kind of thing all the time. Recently when I decided to tell how I FEEL and what I WANT, she told me "you see, it's always about what YOU want and need." And they say that you can't blame someone for how they feel...try telling my W that.
I feel your pain here. About the only thing to do then is to set a schedule that you both agree to so that nobody has to check with anyone before making plans. Sucks but if that's the way she want's it...
Muddle, I think you're doing fine. You are asking the right questions and mostly, you're keeping your struggle internal, which is the most important struggle for any of us to win.
