I have the same sitch in my R. W usually will ask me to do things for her, but the difference is that usually it's little thinks like stop by the store and pick something up, bring her the iron from upstairs, etc. It's almost always something I don't mind doing. The problem with me, and maybe you, I don't know, is that I always resented her for not doing as much for me as I did for her.
Know what though, there was one HUGE thing missing from that equation; my ASKING for what I wanted. When I was honest and looked back, the times I DID ask directly for what I wanted, she usually had no problem doing it. When I beat around the bush, or did the passive/aggressive dance, i.e. Gee, I really wish I didnt have to go downstairs and get that paper versus, honey, could you please bring up my paper?
My point is that I don't really see a problem with doing what they ask so long as it goes both ways, and while I USED to think it didn't in my sitch, I now understand that I have to learn how to directly communicate what I want, and when I do, like she does, there usually is very little, if any resistance.
I see what you're getting at - but I think our sitches differ in that it appears to me that my W really does get a sort of ego boost out of exerting what she sees as control, and she acts very entitled and often gives me a hard time if I ask her to return the favor. Example: I go to get a glass of water before bed and she asks me to grab her one. No problem, glad to. Another night she goes and I ask her - I get resistance in the form of looks or excuses.
I believe that entitlement gets you nowhere in a R. I know when I do something I'm not accumulating any sort of emotional currency that I can redeem at a later date. But knowledge and feelings are different, and I wonder if I am expecting something because of what I do. On another note, I wonder if my W's reluctance to do for me has to do with her feeling that she has done/does do so much for others, and doesn't get what she feels she needs in return. I have read Mars/Venus and I found the idea that a woman needs to put up boundaries so they don't give too much really important.
I feel that resentment is something owned and controlled by the person feeling it - and if it gets out of control it really hurts the R. So, as I have often found myself doing since in this situation, I've taken a look at a R dynamic that I feel is less than what it should be - and I recognize that conclusions I'm drawing might not be at all valid because I'm basing this on my assumptions of what my W feels and thinks - and I'm focussing on her part. My W tends to look at things in our R and in the A as if they are fixed and exist objectively - so there are problems with the way we relate, that's just the way it is. I understand that there are two different perspectives, and a problem may only be a problem in one of them - in this situation, it's not really a problem to me because I'm comfortable with my actions (if I wasn't I wouldn't do it), but looking at it from the overhead perspective, I wonder if it's a problem in the R or not, regardless of my perspective.
What do you do when you come up with things like this, when it seems that a problem seems to be so one sided? Do you file it away as something that you might deal with later if your S decides to work on things? Or do you pick it to pieces and try and figure out what tiny part in this you might have that contributes to the problem - running the risk that you'll almost certainly be accepting more responsibility for it than you are due?
You mentioned that you don't see a problem doing for them as long as it goes both ways. I think that the fact that fairness (as in M/V) is calculated differently by the different sexes means that there's no way to know if equity exists, even though I clearly feel that it doesn't. And how do you determine the equity of the score breakdown? Clearly, there's the specific act based score and the residual running score. I may have gotten 10 glasses of water to my W getting me 1, and yet my W might still feel that she has done more because the residual disparity is so great. At some point it takes an act on her part to purge the residual stuff and start fresh, otherwise there's no way to equalize the score again. I guess I feel that my W's resentment is so great that I'm in an enormous amount of debt.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Well, another weekend has come and gone. I'm starting to really wonder in my GAL is hurting my sitch at all. One of the bigger issues in our M is the inequity in our roles and opportunities. My W has social anxiety disorder, and I have always respected her decisions with respect to dealing with this. When we had our son, W decided that she would stay home with him - and I agreed because I thought it best for our son, despite the fact that it would be more difficult for us to make ends meet, etc, and she wanted to. Well, now I'm blamed for "enabling" her. Her friend told me with a straight face that I should have pushed her to be a better person, and the fact that she's not now is because I enabled her. I responded by telling her that she was really insulting my W, that she is her own person and responsible for who she is in life. Ok, so over the years we've been through some difficult financial times, and we decided to go to one car because it would be cheaper than payments, insurance, and running costs on two cars. We decided on a car that I liked, that happened to be stick - which my W didn't know how to drive at the time, but told me she would learn. She used to ride a motorcycle with a manual transmission, so it's not a stretch to think that she could pick it up quickly. Well, she took a total of about 2 lessons and then every time I asked her if she wanted to try she turned it down. She doesn't like to drive as it is and I so, so she really has no problem letting me drive her where she needs to go. We live close to a shopping center, easily walking distance (I've done it many a time) where there are a lot of stores. There's a playground about a block away. We don't live in the middle of nowhere. Anyway, my W blames me for keeping her in a prison. She claims that she can't do anything, or go anywhere because I have designed it that way, or at the very least, I am happy that it is the case. I tell her that I would love it if she would go out more, and I support her in anything and everything that she thinks makes sense or would be beneficial to her. It seems to me that she uses this as an excuse to justify her giving in to her fear of interacting in the world. Back to the GAL point: she now resents me that I can go anywhere when I want to and she can't. I have tried tell her that I want very much for her to get out and do things, but that it is not something I can push her to do - she needs to be the driving force here (early on in the A she told me that I didn't give her the "tough love" she needs, and that she didn't think I was capable of it - to me this sounded like she wanted someone to step in an run her life for her, to solve her problems and make her proud of herself). So now I don't want to rub it into her face that I can go out while she "HAS" to stay in. We can't afford to buy another car now - she does fairly often have opportunity to borrow her mother's car for fairly long stretches, so it's not a completely hopeless situation, but I do want to be considerate and not make things worse. Oh, and something interesting that happened this weekend - I said something about being focused on myself and how I have things to work on. She replied to this by saying "I think you think that working on yourself is going to somehow make this M work, that I'm going to come back." I replied that I had to do this for me regardless of where the M was headed. She then told me that because I told her that she would be happier in our marriage if she worked on herself and her life (things I told her when she first told me about how she was realizing how unhappy she was in our M at the start of the A) she thought that I was trying to "lead by example" or something. Well, I think it's a fact that if she were to do more in her life (changing roles, etc) that was fulfilling she would be much happier in our marriage. I can't give her this, I can only support her when she chooses to do so. But this really seems to be a hangup of ours (mine because I have spent too much time thinking about what she could do to improve her life - things I don't have much, if and, control or influence over.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Well, all I can say is that while our sitches/W's are not really the same, there are similarities. My W used to say the same kinds of things about being "forced" to stay home with the kids even though she chose to do that. She also used to claim that I didn't want her to go out or do anything. Well, I have come to learn that my BEHAVIOR betrayed my actual feelings in this. Sure, I SAID all the right things, like "honey, I want you to go out with your friends more and have fun" but every time she did that, I acted all passive/agressive and pissy because in the end, I was really uncomfortable with her doing those things because I was/am really insecure. I have no idea if this is you too, but I bet there is some of that.
What I am saying is that you may think you have supported and encouraged her, but little things like the stick shift and such probably drove home a message to her that you didn't really support her independance as much as you claimed to, EVEN IF you really did, unlike me.
As for her calling you out on the "self imrprovment tactic" for marriage improvment, well, I think that shows that you two, especially you, spend too much time discussing such things. At the end of the post you claim that you have spent too much time telling her things she can do to improve herself/her life. I would suggest that you stop doing this. Even if you are right, she's considering the source right now, and that source SEEMS like a man who's primary interest has been/is controlling her and saving a marraige she doesn't necessarily want to save. I think she probably doen't think you have HER best interest at heart here, even though I think you do.
Also, my W was jealous of my doing a lot of things out of the house too so GAL has been a big challange for me. I figured out early on that if I had simply been around more, my sitch would likely be much different, but alas, I wasn't so I can only work on that bit by bit. Just because I know it is something I want to do for my kids as well as my life in general, I have cut back on my extra-family activities for the past few months and it seems to be paying off. I think I have posted to a lot of people that for me, because being gone a lot was a LARGE part of the downfall of my sitch, GAL has been a lot more about being happy with my life and embracing the things I like about it, and showing that happiness to my W and family. Before, I was always down about things. Now, I have taken back my life and decided that I like it a lot, even with the current trauma.
I know it can be confusing trying to figure out when you are supposed to stop enabling her, when to support her, when to love gently or tough, and when going out is going to help of hurt the sitch. The bottom line is that I don't think now is when you are going to really get an accurate idea of when to do those things, especially from her.
Keep looking towards your own internal guidence system and TRY to figure out what the best thing to do for you is.
Yes, yes, yes - you're exactly right. I have been SAYING all the right things to my W - she acknowledges that I talk the talk, but I haven't exactly followed through with my actions. I think this is her biggest complaint. I am trying to address this, for my own sake. I have come to realize recently that a big part of the problem in my R - and maybe yours too GH - is that I always thought in a good R you allowed yourself to be totally vulnerable with your S. You let down all your walls and shared at the deepest level. I know that I'm a strong person, that I've been a strong person. I think it proves a certain level of security to open up and express insecurity. But for my W, who often only sees the part of me that is vulnerable and insecure, doesn't get to see the decisive, strong willed person enough. I think a big part of this comes from being too open about ourselves. I recognize the need to detach and be more of an individual, but I do feel that one of the most fulfilling parts of our M is the fact that we have always been able to talk about anything. To choose to stop doing so is difficult. In fact, my W has told me that she feels I'm being somewhat two faced with her by not telling her everything that's on my mind - feeling that I'm telling her one thing and thinking another. This might just be her desire to control the situation though. Regarding telling my wife how to fix her life: I don't do this, I simply told her that I thought if she worked on this she might feel differently about things. I certainly didn't and don't get into details about what or how things could be fixed.
And of course you're right in your last lines - if I'm truly doing any self-improvement for myself, then I need not worry about what she thinks, and my actions will prove this. It's difficult to weed out what is in my power to change and control and what's not, especially while my W is blaming me for everything. I don't want to be defensive and not take responsibility for things I should and can change, but I also don't want to take responsibility for what is not truly mine.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: I have come to realize recently that a big part of the problem in my R - and maybe yours too GH - is that I always thought in a good R you allowed yourself to be totally vulnerable with your S. You let down all your walls and shared at the deepest level. I know that I'm a strong person, that I've been a strong person. I think it proves a certain level of security to open up and express insecurity. But for my W, who often only sees the part of me that is vulnerable and insecure, doesn't get to see the decisive, strong willed person enough.
I think this is true, although I have expressed it a bit differently. For me, this has always taken the form of me always complaining about things, say at work or elsewhere, talking bad about people when I was frustrated with them and looking to her for help making decisions. So what was the end picture she got of me over the years? Well, duh. She saw an indecisive, unhappy man who disliked just about everyone he knew, probably even her. Gee, who woulda thunk it?
Of course, this realization (which BTW, she TRIED to tell me about long ago, befoe all this) came as a shock to me because I have a TON of people who I like, am happy most of the time and make several tough decisions a day on my own. Ah, but do I ever talk about all that? Nope. I guess my beleif in being open and "deep" with her only applied to the negative things in my life. What's worse is that when I tried to say things were different, it sounded like I was being defensive...well, I guess I was.
Quote: I recognize the need to detach and be more of an individual, but I do feel that one of the most fulfilling parts of our M is the fact that we have always been able to talk about anything. To choose to stop doing so is difficult.
Again, I had to choose not necessarily to stop talking to her about things, but to make sure to include a LOT of positive things and not so much negative, indecisive stuff.
Quote: In fact, my W has told me that she feels I'm being somewhat two faced with her by not telling her everything that's on my mind - feeling that I'm telling her one thing and thinking another. This might just be her desire to control the situation though.
Yea, I've heard this, but you know what, I had to learn not to care what she thoght in this respect. I figured out that she was just as likely to get angry, upset, or say I was "hiding things" if I was or wasn't telling her everything. In my current sitch, I try to make it a point to be open and direct with her, but earlier in the sitch, there just were things better left unsaid, from BOTH of us.
So, like I said, I had to really learn that the "rightness" of what I am saying has NOTHING to do with what she thinks about it, or how it makes her feel.
Quote: It's difficult to weed out what is in my power to change and control and what's not, especially while my W is blaming me for everything. I don't want to be defensive and not take responsibility for things I should and can change, but I also don't want to take responsibility for what is not truly mine.
Responsibility, especially in the respect of a marriage of TWO people, is in the eye of the beholder. You accepting or denying responsibility is probably not going to make a damn bit of difference to HER, and her accusing you of being responsible for something you don't feel responsible for is likely going have a similar effect on YOU.
It doesn't really matter because in the end, the marriage is the responsibility of BOTH of you and blame is not really productive. Open, honest, deep, sensitive communication is not about blame as it is feeling safe to disclose and disagree in a relationship. Blame does not really help accomplish that...IMHO.
Ok, the blame things was more about what I can do to change the dynamic of the relationship, using her "input" but without directly talking about anything. I don't intend to do anything here to get a direct response from her in the sense that I'm taking responsibility for problems, but rather I'm trying to discern where I can effectively take responsibility for making a positive change in the M. It just occurred to me that one of the obvious things in our relationship that I recognized early on in this whole process was that I tend to take responsibility for things regardless of whether or not I am objectively responsible. I tend to placate my W by saying sorry for something I may or may not have had a whole lot of responsibility for - and I may not have felt sorry for it either. I have recently stopped apologizing for things that I'm not really sorry about - so I think that might qualify as a 180 - but I'm not sure if the overall idea of me taking responsibility for the entire R as seems to be the case these days is more of the same.
Today my W asked me if I had talked to the teacher at our son's preschool about his birthday on Wednesday. I hadn't, because I just planned to bring the cupcakes and goody bags in, what's there to talk about? Well, she got upset because she would have felt more comfortable if we were sure that it would be ok, but had never mentioned that she wanted me to talk to the teachers. I didn't apologize for this, because in my mind I am perfectly comfortable bringing the stuff with us without notice. So, even though I'm feeding into her idea that I'm a stupid, thoughtless person, do you think the fact that I'm not accepting more responsibility than I see fit is of any significance?
I guess ultimately this is something that detachment will hopefully achieve for us: once our S perceives that we have stopped caring so much about the R, they will (hopefully) begin to start caring more. Not sure if I'm trying to make something fit here that doesn't quite.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: t just occurred to me that one of the obvious things in our relationship that I recognized early on in this whole process was that I tend to take responsibility for things regardless of whether or not I am objectively responsible. I tend to placate my W by saying sorry for something I may or may not have had a whole lot of responsibility for - and I may not have felt sorry for it either. I have recently stopped apologizing for things that I'm not really sorry about - so I think that might qualify as a 180 - but I'm not sure if the overall idea of me taking responsibility for the entire R as seems to be the case these days is more of the same.
I do the same thing, and also am trying to stop. It's all part of being codependent. I used to say I was sorry for damn near everything. The sun could set a few minutes early and cause W to be a little sad and I'd apologize for it as if I made a call to God and arranged for it myself. It's stupid and it had to stop. I'm right there with you.
In terms of the R, I don't think I or anyone else has ever suggested you take responsibility for the entire R, or really, the bad parts as I'm sure you mean. You just learn MUCH more about what you ARE responsible for and then answer to yourself for those things. I don't think it's nearly as important that you confess your sins to her as it is to purge them from yourself.
Quote: I didn't apologize for this, because in my mind I am perfectly comfortable bringing the stuff with us without notice. So, even though I'm feeding into her idea that I'm a stupid, thoughtless person, do you think the fact that I'm not accepting more responsibility than I see fit is of any significance?
If you are being "stupid and thoughtless" then stop. If you are not, then don't apologize for her perception that you are. Let your actions speak for you and if she can't hear, then let her take the blame for having a hearing problem.
Quote:
I guess ultimately this is something that detachment will hopefully achieve for us: once our S perceives that we have stopped caring so much about the R, they will (hopefully) begin to start caring more. Not sure if I'm trying to make something fit here that doesn't quit
I disagree. Detachment, LOVING detachment that has NOTHING to do with physical or emotional distance, is all about us finally being US AND being close to them. Passionate Marrigage describes this as differentiation and really I think it's interchangable with detachment for our purposes.
The goal in each case is to allow us to function in a close, emotional relationship and remain independant. In the case of detachment, as I think we should use it, that means learning to stop reacting to their negative "stuff" and just be comfortable with who we are, what we do, and our own emotional state of being. Right now, most of us are totally influenced by our spouses emotional whims and it's causing us great harm.
So, no, I don't think we give them the impression that we don't care about the R anymore. We give them the impression that we are not dependant on them anymore and are capable of first loving ourselves, and then STILL loving them. We let them know that while we DO love them, and DO want the marriage to work, that we don't NEED that like we need air to breathe or water to drink. We WANT them in a way only a person who truly knows what they want can.
Muddle, it is REALLY hard for me to do all this but I am starting to understand that I have lived very little of my life for me, and in living for others, I have never really truly given of myself. I have never really had a "self" to give, and that's what I am trying to get through all this...and then learn to give of it freely, without obligation, out of love alone.
A couple of things - about the responsibility for the R, now that my W has "checked out" and wants nothing more than for me to agree to separate, the entire R is in my hands, so to speak. I guess this is what I'm getting at. Even though her part is her part and I have no control over it, I am the only one (not entirely true) that is involved in the R at this point. I say not entirely true because my W is still actively invested in parts of the R - but it's my feeling that her scales have tipped farther in the direction of OM so inherently she needs to give up everything with me. The stupid and thoughtless comment was to demonstrate who my W has turned me into, how she manages to find fault with me for anything and everything. I don't let it bother me, but it is a fact of the situation at present. Another thing she blames me for is that by "holding on" to the R, I'm keeping her captive. Even though I tell her she's free to do what she wants, it's her life, I'm not going to interfere, etc., I'm still imposing my will on her. I guess you see what you want to see. As for detachment - I know what you mean, and this is what it means to me, but to someone who is used to getting certain cues that have now ceased, it may look very different. These changes are noticable, and to someone who is used to having her emotional whims reacted to in clear and finite ways who is no longer experiencing this, it could feel like the other person no longer cares the same way. I know that I want to be with her, and I know that I convey this in different ways now, but it's still conveyed. I think more than anything, detachment allows for a greater amount of respect of the S. I've come to realize (the big light bulb went off while reading Mars/Venus) that I've been conveying a lack of respect for my W's feelings, without meaning to of course, for years now. She has been saying that I don't listen to her, that I don't care about her feelings since this all started. I know now that this is true, and I make every effort to listen well, when I have the opportunity. So on the respect point - I believe that everyone is equally capable of making things happen in their life as they want them to. Some people have more resources, but the capacity is there in everyone. To remove my responsibility for getting things done for my W is to truly respect her - BUT is it treating her like a child? She has this hang up that I treat her like a child, and therefore it's difficult, if not impossible to be lovers, because she views me like her father. I know this is her issue, and I also know that at the moment, she doesn't want to resolve it - it's just more fodder for this situation - but I don't want to play into it any more than I do naturally. There's so much to all of this, and I still feel like I'm so close that I can't see the big picture yet. Frustrating.
“No problem can be solved from the same level of consciousness that created it. ” – Albert Einstein
Quote: A couple of things - about the responsibility for the R, now that my W has "checked out" and wants nothing more than for me to agree to separate, the entire R is in my hands, so to speak. I guess this is what I'm getting at.
That what she SAYS she wants RIGHT NOW. That COULD change sometime in the future, I've seen it happen MANY times. So, while I agree, the life line of the R is likely in your hands right now, that doesn't mean that it's all your responsibility. I know it feels that way much of the time, and I feel that way too. Just realize that it CAN'T be your responsibility 100% because you can't control her part of it, and thus can't really take responsibility for her or her actions towards (or away from) the R.
Quote: Another thing she blames me for is that by "holding on" to the R, I'm keeping her captive. Even though I tell her she's free to do what she wants, it's her life, I'm not going to interfere, etc., I'm still imposing my will on her. I guess you see what you want to see.
To me this is all about the fact that she still feels a certain amount of codependency towards you and by you still clinging to hope, it somehow obligates her to at least run a little slower, take a look back every now and then. Like you said, she will see what she wants to see.
Quote: As for detachment - I know what you mean, and this is what it means to me, but to someone who is used to getting certain cues that have now ceased, it may look very different. These changes are noticable, and to someone who is used to having her emotional whims reacted to in clear and finite ways who is no longer experiencing this, it could feel like the other person no longer cares the same way.
Amen, but realize that sometimes we LBS's place WAY too much value, in terms of how the WAS look at us, on WHAT we do for them and not nearly enough on WHO we are. It's part of not feeling we're worth love on our own merits and that we have to DO something in order to earn her love. I know I felt this way, and still do to a certain extent.
When you look at it from her perspective, or at least when I look at things from my W's perspective, I see that she doesn't feel that need to DO anything to get something from me. She accepts that she's worth the "love" I give her without having to constantly earn it. It's a fine line between being selfish and knowing you deserved to be loved and "done for". I am like you and constantly DO (or used to anyway) for my W without much in return. I never thought much of it, but I do now.
As you said, your W is now seeing you slow down, or stop some of that, and she WILL feel like you somehow stopped caring. I know for me, this is a big thing, so I think it's ok (maybe I am dead wrong here) to simply tell her why you are doing what you are doing and that it's just to preserve your emotional health and respect HER boundaries of not being in the kind of R that such things are done. I'm assuming that there are things SHE no longer does for you as a result of the state of your R, right. Same thing.
Quote: She has been saying that I don't listen to her, that I don't care about her feelings since this all started.
To me, this may be equal parts looking for validation (maybe do more of this) and more of that "if you loved me, you'd leave me now" crap I taked about before...except for her, it's not crap.
Quote: To remove my responsibility for getting things done for my W is to truly respect her - BUT is it treating her like a child? She has this hang up that I treat her like a child, and therefore it's difficult, if not impossible to be lovers, because she views me like her father. I know this is her issue, and I also know that at the moment, she doesn't want to resolve it - it's just more fodder for this situation - but I don't want to play into it any more than I do naturally.
Again, same issues with my W though I don't really see how pulling back from "taking care" of her considering the sitch is treating her like a child. I see the opposite as true. Letting her be her own woman, and letting go enough so she feels 100% of the responsibility for her life is treating her like an adult.
The bottom line is that your "treatment" of her should no longer be the issue if she is truly out of the R, right? Why should she care how you "treat" her or what you "allow" in terms of her life and decisions? If she is truly "detaching" from YOU, then why so much concern from her?
My point is that as long as she continues to give you credit/blame for things in her life, she is still IN your life. Someday she'll figure out that you no more control her, nor WANT to, than she controls you. THEN you can make some real progress.
