Muddle's Muddy Waters

[PArob]

I guess I'll throw in my two cents worth here, even though it may come out worth less than that

The way I view DBing is it is not passive. Simply standing by and being a doormat is being passive. Allowing the WAS to walk all over you is being passive. Allowing the A to control your life is being passive. I don't think anywhere in the DR/DB books does Michelle advocate any of these. In fact, when it comes to dealing with the A (which, by the way, I should note that only a small portion of DR/DB is devoted to dealing with an A, the rest is really set forth in terms of achieving goals in a relationship to strengthen it), we are told to ignore the negative stimuli, give up begging, pleading, pursuing and get a life. One of the other things she advocates is trying to understand what the other person is giving your spouse and endeavoring to fill that void in your R. That's where the self-improvement comes in. Communication, learning to speak the "love language" of your mate, etc.

I think DB/DR is really about doing that 180, and being the person that your spouse loves and will, in time, come to love again. It allows the natural tendency of pursuer/distancer to kick in and change the dynamic. In short, it brings to mind the old adage of letting something free and seeing if it comes back to you. In the process of seeing if it comes back to you, you don't sit idly by, crossing off the days and lamenting times gone by....you live, you grow.

[grasshopper]

GH, I find it interesting that you see it this way. I am actually supporting DB, not attacking it. I guess I'm not articulating my thoughts very well. I am stating here that IF what we do in DBing can appear to the WAS like a strategy, it becomes begging or pleading but in a more subtle way. "Honey, I'm changing so you'll come back to me, can't you see?"

In that case, I couldn't agree more. I'm sorry if I misunderstood you, and you bring up a GREAT point that kinda goes with my rant from earlier, which I think Lesile also brought up, that if you DB simply to try to affect your spouse, you will fail, and in that way, yes, it becomes a passive type thing.

I don't think you are "against DB" but some of the things you are trying to do in your sitch are against what DB would advocate. I agree 100% that it is paramount that we not lower our standards to practice DB. It's VERY hard to walk that line but learning to do it is one of the great benefits of DB. Learning to be self-centered while caring for others is a gift and one that comes only from LONG hours of soul searching.

I am really glad you posted back on this subject and clarified your position. I DO think any kind of debate we have WILL make us stronger and for that I am grateful to you. If you can approach your efforts in DB/marriage saving with the same even keeled demeanor, I think you have a good chance to make things work out, or at least move forward to a better life.

Keep posting and good luck.

GH

P.S. Of course, some of what was debated was not directed at you.

[MuddleThrough]

OK, I'll reply here instead of continuing to hijack mama's thread. I know I got some really good advice there about validation - it's always taken me some time to implement stuff that I "understand" properly, and I think you may both be right that I do need to work on not coming off as insincere.

On another note (to do a bit of journaling that I haven't really had the chance to do yet) - I realized a bit the past couple of days how this boundary I was talking about earlier is hurting the situation (from one perspective). The past couple days, the venomous comments have been increasing to the point where my traits are being pointed out as things W hates, not just actions and things I have control over. Not more than 2 weeks ago she was talking about how there's this really strong loving bond between us and how she doesn't want to dissolve our M (a conversation that turned around to her trying to get me to "allow" her to go to Europe and "find out" if there was something there - so she can move forward one way or another). It's really scary to see these moments of clarity quickly overtaken by the desire and lust that's been fueling all of this. Anyway, since then she's taken more of a position that our M is over - in fact she asked me last night why I couldn't accept that our M is over, that it's too late to fix anything. I know that this line of thinking is because she's deep into trying to plan to meet OP (she has a friend who is validating this whole thing and planning to join her - which sickens me when she's around) and is frustrated by how this is all proceeding. I guess this either/or situation reinforced by the boundary is causing her to really dig deep to justify going, and the venom just pours forth.

So, I can see where it might be far better to not have put this boundary out there because she might be somehow still trying to have both worlds while going through this. But I have chosen a certain path, and I need to remain consistent, not allow my actions and intents to be dictated by her attempts at manipulation. I have no regrets, and I need to maintain my positive, optimistic outlook (even though this post sounds somewhat regretful, right?)

I guess I'm just venting a bit here, because I'm starting to feel like I'm hitting up against more obstacles in the past couple of days. Her C apparently validated her feeling that the A was a seperate issue than the problems in our M, which allows her to compartmentalize things, and justify things. Her friend is supporting, and even pushing her - I think. I know that she alone is responsible for what she does, but the more validation she has, the longer I see this being dragged out.

Ok, ok - too much focus on the A. It's difficult though, because a lot of our interactions recently are about it. It's my W's entire life and world - hardly anything exists outside it, so she always wants to talk about it. I do my thing, and I never bring it up - but I think she's getting to a boiling point here. The thing about this whole drama is that I feel that it's FAR more unrealistic and fantastic than many other people's sitches - family/distance/he just bought a house out there/we have a child so she can't go there. I guess none of that has any bearing on emotions.

Oh, and another thing. I keep telling her that I don't want to talk about the A, because it's not the problem to me - but she thinks that I'm in denial because I won't accept it. I do accept it, but I don't live my life around it and it is her issue alone to address. I feel like in some way she wants me to react to this all in a different way - because I think on some level she thinks I'm being apathetic to this (and passivity is something that she sees as a problem in me) in just ignoring it and thinking it will run its course. I KNOW I'm not doing this, and the changes in my life speak to that, so I'm not too concerned - but she was a bit drunk a few nights ago and told me that she wants to see me fight for her in some way. I know that I am - but I think she needs to know it, and there's no way to really fight for her without fighting against her, is there?

[MCWaterDog]

she was a bit drunk a few nights ago and told me that she wants to see me fight for her in some way. I know that I am - but I think she needs to know it, and there's no way to really fight for her without fighting against her, is there?

Wow! That sounds familiar. Good luck with this one. I think it circles back to the original issue that caused me to chime in (see above). I'm interested to hear what more accomplished DB'ers have to say on this point, because I don't think the books really cover this "fight for me" situation.

I will say it again at the risk of unintentionally inviting a lot of angry replies, but I think the standard DB approach comes off as too passive and weak for some walk-away spouses, especially ones that, despite their intelligence, harbor immature, cartoonish notions of what it means to "fight for" someone.

I mean, really, what does she want you to do, kick the guy's ass? Maybe you should simply and sincerely ask her, "What do you mean, you want me to 'fight' for you? Give me examples."

Also, for what it's worth, while you (and everyone else on these boards) can endlessly try to imagine what might have happened if you had never vocalized your boundary, my (admittedly amateur) opinion from reading your situation is that if you hadn't established a reasonable boundary by saying you can't tolerate living under the same roof while she runs off to "explore" with the OM, then your wife might only use this perceived (but not actual) passivity as yet more fuel for the "you just don't care about me" fire!

I can't remember whether you explained the details of your boundary. Did you tell her "we're through" if she goes on the trip with OM, or did you simply tell her you were going to remove yourself from the situation, which without more only suggests you're going to live separately during this experimental phase? I'm not sure you lose much consistency if it's the former and you now tell her that after much serious thought you've decided that you aren't going to immediately seek divorce if she goes on the trip with OM, but you are going to remove yourself through a trial separation--one that is both physical and financial.

[grasshopper]

MC,

Actually, maybe I disagreed with you before, but I do not now.

I will say it again at the risk of unintentionally inviting a lot of angry replies, but I think the standard DB approach comes off as too passive and weak for some walk-away spouses, especially ones that, despite their intelligence, harbor immature, cartoonish notions of what it means to "fight for" someone.

I agree with this, at least in that you say for SOME WAS it is too passive. I have always said that SOME sitches are different and maybe DB is not for them. Maybe this is one.

The only thing I usually point out is that in the majority of the cases where DB doesn't work, or seems too passive (and no, RC, I am NOT saying this is you), it is not being applied with consistancy or even correctly. ANY method of dealing with this kind of sitch can be seen as passive, i.e.

"That's it b!tch, get the f--k out NOW! If you are going to be with him, you can be with me."

That would be seen as anything BUT passive, right?

(two weeks later)

"Honey, I was wrong, I love you and think we can work this out given some time and space. Please come home"

Oops, the ultimatum didn't work and now he realizes that something different may need to be done because after all, he REALLY wants his W back more than anything.

I see this kind of thing ALL THE TIME, especially from men. We tend to get that "f-you" attitude when things first come to light, we set ultimatums and then realize that the sitch is not changed in a way that we like and try something different.

All I am in favor of is maintaining consistancy. I think RC is doing that, and in this, he is being strong. He established a boundary and is sticking to it. I may agree that it might not have been the best boundary in terms of successfully saving his marriage, but you know what, I am not RC, and I don't know what his sitch needs to be like in order for him to feel comfortable.

I can't remember whether you explained the details of your boundary. Did you tell her "we're through" if she goes on the trip with OM, or did you simply tell her you were going to remove yourself from the situation, which without more only suggests you're going to live separately during this experimental phase? I'm not sure you lose much consistency if it's the former and you now tell her that after much serious thought you've decided that you aren't going to immediately seek divorce if she goes on the trip with OM, but you are going to remove yourself through a trial separation--one that is both physical and financial.

I agree with this. The bottom line is that I think there IS a way for RC to change his mind and save face. In the end, I think you do all you can, within your personal limits, to try to save your marriage. If that means losing some face, then so be it.

In the end, this idea of passiveness, especially from the men in these sitches, is a touchy one, I have always agreed with that. As I said before, I am one of those whose wife said I was too passive. She no longer says that. She recognizes the strength it takes to deal with what I dealt with in the WAY I did. Maybe I am just lucky to have a W that can see that.

Oh, BTW, I DID offer to kick his a$$ at one point, lol. Maybe that did the trick...

Anyway, RC, I applaud you for trying to remain consistant. Just make sure you don't cut off your nose to spite your face to do it.

GH

[MuddleThrough]

Thanks guys - so little of this makes sense to me, so with the little bit of information you guys get to make judgements on, it's almost impossible to get anywhere. It's interesting, the whole "fight for me" thing, because I have written to my cousin, I have tried to get him to understand that what he's doing is destroying our family. So in this sense I have fought for her. In these cases she has always told me that if this A ends because of something I do, she will never forgive me. So then, what exactly is fighting for her?

I understand, GH, what you are talking about regarding impulsive ultimatums driven by angry desperation - I have to say that I have resisted these from the start. I have not acted out of anger (passive aggressive comments, maybe) this whole time. It took me quite a while to express my boundary, I mean through a couple weeks of conversations, and I didn't do this without a great deal of thought - certainly not an angry reaction.

You know, I can't help feeling that this is really some kind of testing, a powerstruggle to see just how far I can be pushed. I think she changes her perspective too often for this to be a genuine decision - that she thinks things are over. I read something last night that made me feel that anything I can do to prevent them from turning this into a PA I should do. The fact that most Ms in which the W has BOTH strong feelings and has had sex are not often recovered. I'm now debating writing a letter to my cousin - who I know "doesn't want to destroy our family or marriage" - copying his parents and other people challenging him to take responsibility for doing just that. I don't know if it will be in any way effective, but it will really challenge any conscience he has left.

Also - in answer to your questions about the details of my boundary: I told her that I do not want to separate, that I don't see separation as the first step towards divorce, but rather as a time for space and reflection. I didn't want it to be a threat in any way. I wanted to show her that I was not willing to keep going the way we were going if she overstepped that boundary. I don't think there's any reason for me to waver on this. It's going to be incredibly difficult for us to separate because we are basically living check to check and there's no way we can afford this apartment on my income alone - not to mention another place to live. But, my W has said that she feels that the only way she can really re-commit to this M is if we were to separate, because only then does she feel that she really had the choice. As I told her, I don't want to separate - but I will, and I do think there could be some value to it.

Anyway - thanks for your comments - it always helps to get a different perspective on all that's churning away. . .

[RemainCalm]

Anyway, RC, I applaud you for trying to remain consistant. Just make sure you don't cut off your nose to spite your face to do it.

GH: I think you mixed me up with Muddle. I haven't set any boundaries, myself, although I'm thinking about doing so - I won't hijack Muddle's thread for that, except to say I've started thinking about asking W to move out.

RC

[MuddleThrough]

Ok, it's another day, and a renewed perspective. I have found myself in a part of the emotional cycle I have been in since this started - and I don't want to be there. The past few days I have been entirely too fixated on this A in a negative way and, while I KNOW how to get off this wheel, I haven't implemented this in a disciplined, effective way, the way I HAVE succeeded with certain other things since this started. It's clear to me that my biggest struggle in life seems to be with complacency - and I have started to feel this way emotionally because I have again become somewhat complacent, feeling that I have made changes and that the problems all lie within my W. This is exactly the sort of thinking that makes me the victim, and makes me feel entitled and makes me resentful. If the dynamic in my R is to change I need to be the one to change, and boy is this HARD.

I guess I haven't truly accepted that I can have no control over what my W is doing, and that's what's keeping me on this wheel - in a sense keeping HER in control by fulfilling her expectations that I'm too passive and I'm not worthy of her respect and/or love.

The A is simply dealt with - I am not going to stop it. I can't. There's no sense trying to understand it more deeply than I have. What I have tried to understand in the name of empathy and understanding also in some way is my attempt at control and being able to fix my W, tell her where her thinking is wrong. I am not able to do so, so where's the benefit in trying? As far as our relationship goes, I am not going to initiate any measures to dissolve it as a result of the A, if she wants to leave, she's free to do so. In the mean time, I'm going to shift my whole focus - not just what shows to my W and others - onto myself and my life.

So - goals:

Being healthy - I have already quit smoking (2+ months, cold turkey, no weight gain) and have been working out religiously.

Being a better dad - I have been focusing on reading more about discipline (GREAT book if you have preschoolers: "How To Behave SO Your Preschooler Will Too!" - kind of in line with DB), but I need to work harder to be 100% there with him while I'm spending time with him. Actually, this is the central to almost all of my goals. I need to compartmentalize all of this pain and put it out of the way while I focus on what I need to do. Work, play, etc.

Sounds kind of stupid putting this down in print - I felt like I was doing all of this already, and I guess I had enough "points" I could make to satisfy myself on a superficial level - but now I'm aware that I have so much farther to go. I guess I haven't really fully accepted that this is a lifelong process now - not a goal I can accomplish. . .

[grasshopper]

Muddle,

That was a GREAT post. I am glad you are figuring out how personally empowering it can be to admit what you can and cannot change, and then DO something about it!

This IS a plan of action yet so many of us are so inconsistent and lackluster in our efforts that we fail to accomplish much.

This is HARD work, and the main reason why is because it is SO intensely personal and seems like it will make us feel MORE alone, when in fact, we end up feeling more connected to everyone and everything around us (notice, connected, not attached) because we are finally allowing ourselves to make a difference in our lives.

I think you are going to do GREAT. Please, understand that at times, it WILL be hard, almost unbearable, but then again, things worth having often are REALLY hard.

GH

[MuddleThrough]

GH,

As always - thanks for your affirmation and motivation. I think I have spent far too much time thinking about where my W is justifying things or more specifically responding internally to her justification - in an effort to convince myself she is wrong and to understand what the source of her resentment and deep disrespect is coming from. This is all something that I have to let go of - it's up to her to understand IF she chooses to. This is one of those fine lines that I realize I was standing on the wrong side of. I can't address the sources of her resentment if she's not a willing partner - if I try to do so, I'll only be working on my assumptions. And, an even bigger part of the problem, and this is a bit of a theme in my life, is that I am being reactive, rather than recognizing the problems within myself and proactively resolving them by progressing and transcending them.

On another note - yesterday, fathers' day, I woke up to my brother calling me to wish me a happy fathers' day at 7:30 in the morning. He's NEVER up this early, especially on a weekend (as he's a bit of an alchoholic and is usually sleeping off the night before). So my W and I both suspect he still hadn't gone to sleep - maybe other substances in his diet. Anyway, my W gets up and makes a bee-line downstairs to the computer. I get up and get my son breakfast, make the beds, run out and pick up breakfast for my W and me. I come back and she's still sitting at the computer on IM with my cousin. So, hours go by, and I can't help it, but I tell her: "Please don't feel that I'm trying to make you feel guilty, or anything for that matter, I just wanted to mention that I am feeling a little hurt. You never told me 'happy fathers' day'." Well, she was a bit upset, and she gave me a big hug and went on and on about how she had been looking at something specific to get for me, and she just hadn't gotten around to picking it up. She also assured me that she hadn't not mentioned it because of "anything else" that was going on. I can't blame her for her mind being elsewhere and forgetting. It did make me feel bad, because she ALWAYS remembers stuff like this. I also know that I shouldn't have put her in a place to feel any more guilt than she does already, but I felt I needed to express how I felt.