Quote: Think about this, how can you share information during your conversation with her but not be confrontational?
I have been thinking about this. IF, and thats a BIG if, she does ask me about this today, but in a non-confrontational way, I think I can respond in kind, merely telling how I feel and what I thought was going on today. She COULD accept that as a natural thing considering what we have been through.
The biggest problem is that I am trying to figure out when it's DBing, when it's being "honest", when it's direct, when it's controling, etc, etc, etc.
Thanks for your posts. I don't really have time to respond like I want to but suffice to say I am considering what you both said. I need to calm down I think. The only problem is that you both are saying different things. One of you (rob) is saying not to keep this in, to express how I feel, what I think NOW, as W has asked me to.
Always, you are saying (i think) to just STOP my thoughts like I used to do back in the height of the affair.
I agree with both of you. Maybe I need to calm down and then speak to her as soon as I can without all the emotion.
Like I have been saying, unless I just refuse to talk to her, I don't think she'll let me choose the time and place of this convo. She WILL address it.
We'll see what happenes.
Thanks again all. I am heading home now. Any more thoughts are appreciated.
Again, my .02 worth. You are in a different phase of DBing at this point. You're W has admittedly ended the A, has committed to working things out with you, has told you that you can expect openness and honesty from her! This is a completely different phase altogether. She has told you these things. She has also told you that she expects directness from you, rather than silent brooding. Am I missing something?
The point is GH, DBing for others on this board is a wee bit different becasue their spouses haven't even reached that stage yet. You are on a different plane....piecing if you must attach a name to it. Your goal is different in that your not trying to end the A (it already has, from what you know and what you've been told) you're both trying to move past it. Opening up and telling her what you think, feel, etc. is what is expected.
Let me put it to you another way....if you don't be straight forward and direct, you know, just know that your concerns will be manifested in some other way....e.g. passive/aggressive behavior...Is that what you want?
Look, all I'm saying is that your W has expressed to you that she expects you to be direct. Give her what she has asked for...tell her, in non-confronational terms, what bothered you and why.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
What I really want from W right now is for her to tell me in a non-confrontational, non-angry way, that I am wrong, and why. That's all. I want to tell her how I feel in the same way. Is that being direct, and is that too much for me to ask for/expect? Am I trying to manage her emotions again?
GH
P.S. I may not get the answer to that until later...on the road now.
So, you say that your W WILL address this tonight. Then, you SHOULD talk. I was assuming that your W was like most of our spouses here, avoiding everything.
Also, if she's ready to talk about it, I'm not sure that she's lying to you.
If she addresses it, talk. Tell her, calmly, nicely, how you felt. Why you felt what you did. Tell her you understand how it makes her feel to not be trusted, and you feel a little stuck. You may even want to tell that you need a little reassurance now, from her, that she's not doing anything. That you might need it for a while, like she needed to see changes in YOU for a while before she trusted that you were different.
Don't demand this from her, tell her that it's something that would help. Ask her what she thinks, how you made her feel. Then ask her how the 2 of you can work together to get through this.
I think you're at a critical juncture that's a great opportunity. Most of us landed in this mess b/c when we hit conflicts, we clashed, fought, didn't talk instead of working TOGETHER to solve it. You could really use this as a way to change a deep pattern here. Take it. You are assuming that your talk with her tonight will be bad, and she's assuming the same. You're both assuming that you STILL don't have skills to talk it through together and solve it together. To truly be H and W. GH, up until now, you have made changes in YOU. W has come out of her fog and is working on HER. But, now it's time to start, gently, on the TEAM changes you need to make together....the bad patterns you had when life required you both to work as a couple.
So, tonight, have a beginner's mind. Start fresh. Put down your trust issues while speaking to her, bring down your walls. Speak from your heart and TRUST that she understands you, loves you, listens to you and will seek a resolution WITH you for mutual benefit. Give her a chance, give your new M a chance.
Remember, EVERYTHING is an opportunity. It's your choice to take it or not.
Sorry about your afternoon....my .02....combine a little of both of what Rob & Always suggested. You are on a different plane than some of us here. Your W has agreed to working on your M with you. Due to that, she needs to know that YOU are also recovering from this A, just as she is recovering from it as well. I think that's the only way the TWO of you are going to work through this as a couple.
I believe there is a part in DR that addresses this. Perhaps you can copy or paraphrase that section to your W (or maybe you can re-read it BEFORE talking with her) and it will help explain what it is that YOU are going thru in these types of situations (where she's unavailable and it brings back thoughts that she's lying to you). To trust, there has to be give & take & understanding - from both sides. You want to trust her again and I'm sure she wants you to trust & believe in her, too. And you gotta start building that somewhere.
{{{{GH}}}} Hugs...hope all goes well this evening.
Well, I know SOME things about my W, and this was one of them. The only part I had wrong was that she'd wait until tonight. She brought it up as soon as I got home. I don't really remember the whole convo, but this was the gist...
W: What was all that about this afternoon. I already was stressed about my car problems and then that. It really gave me a headache. I felt bad but... M: I'm sorry if I made you feel bad but when you didn't answer your phone it reminded me of the "bad old days" when you would go for hours, days without answering your phone.
We went on to talk a bit about her phone problems...
M: I really didn't plan on having this conversation, at least not now. W: Well, I KNOW you and yes, we did need to have it or else you would just be in a "mood" all night until you decided to talk about it. M: You DON'T KNOW me as well as you think. I was not going to bring it up, and honestly, if I was going to be in a mood, wouldn't I have been in one from then on? W: Yes. M: Well, I have talked to you several times since then and I have been fine, right? I have had no attitude, no "mood" at all, right? You actually apologized to me earlier, something that frankly, was unexpected because you usually get angry at me for being angry at you, and I accepted that. I was still a little concerned but I think I would have gotten over it. W: I suppose. I just feel like you are blaming me for something like I did it on purpose. M: You M: Ok then. I'm sorry you were stressed but imagine what it was like for me to be walking around the mall, thinking we had made plans and you not only not showing, but not answering your phone. I was angry and frustrated, just like you would have been. W: I understand that but I just hate that no matter what I do, you ALWAYS treat me this way, like somehow I went out of my way to do this. M: I don't ALWAYS treat you any particular way. I am treating you this way today because of what it seemed like to me. It SEEMED like (and BTW, the kids were in the room so we could not speak openly about some things) maybe something that it was not. I am sorry to jump to conclusions that may not have been fair, but you may have to expect that from time to time. W: I know, but my mom called me and said all the same things. It's like you think I see it's you and avoid the calls. I didn't hear my phone. M: Well, the last thing I'll say is that you get pissed at me if I don't answer my phone right away. You call back several times and leave terse messages when I don't answer. Why is it ok for you but not for me? We are supposed to BOTH be equals in terms of this stuff now. W: Yes, and like I said... M: I know, you had phone problems. You apologized and I accept that. Please, next time you are out, especially when you are 5 minutes from where I am and we have some kind of tentative plans to get together, check your phone a little more often. W: Ok...
There was a bit more. She questioned how come I always seem like it's a huge deal to be a little late to, or leave a little early from work yet I had time to wander around the mall. She said it was a mixed message. I told her that was not true, that I only spent a total of about 35 minutes getting to, looking for her, and back from the mall. She accepted that.
I STILL don't know if I believe her. I think either guilt OR honesty could have motivated her to talk to me about it. No matter what, she's right, in the PAST, I would have stewed, fumed and been in a terrible mood over this. I was NOT, nor am I in that mood. I AM still thinking about it, but now with a more rational mind.
I will post more later, but for now, it's all tentatively good.
GH, I hate to tell you but I think my paranoia might have rubbed off on you today. Not to defend your W but lots of time my cell was in my purse right under my armpit and I never heard a thing. I would get home and see that I had missed calls. I changed it so that my phone would vibrate before it would ring, this way I actually feel it even if I don't hear it. I would suggest you program your wife's phone to do this if you can.
I understand that you are still a little suspicious, like in the fact that she didn't see the new playground. Who the heck knows where she really was or what she was really doing. Just know this, you have NO CONTROL over her. As always_14 has told me on more than one occasion I have to stop treating my H like a criminal, I have to stop looking over his shoulder at every move he makes. You must do the same. I know, it's more of the limboland that we love so much - NOT! But we cannot treat them like the bad child. "Bad wife, you didn't answer your phone, now you must suffer my wrath..." Leave her be. Let her do her own thing. DO NOT dwell on it, you, as well as me, are making yourself CRAZY. Just my .02 cents for the day. As always thinks that her, I and Underdog are triplets and you think that you and Rob are brothers, we might actually all be quints seperated at birth - lol.
Don't go crazy on us now, you have come too far to flip out and cave in to the frustration.
I don't know if that post conveyed it or not, but I am fine. I said my peace and I have let it go. We have had a really light night full of laughing and just plain fun. I think this direct stuff has it's advantages. In some way, I DO feel closer to her now that I could express myself, negative things at that, and still not get ANGRY in the process, and neither did she. We BOTH said some negative things but neither of us focused on those things. We got them out, talked about it and moved on. It was a REALLY nice way to do things. I still don't know if I did it right or not, but it felt ok.
As for me not believing her, well, lets just say that she did a pretty good job of convincing me this evening that she was with GF. Throughout the night she talked a bit about things GF said, etc. It was believable but still... I can't get over the playground thing. I did talk to her about that again and she said they spent the whole time on the other end of the mall. Oops. The first time, when I asked her where she may have been when I was there, she said they were in a store RIGHT outside that area. Like I said, it would have been nearly impossible for two women with two boys each, each having complained about the lack of kids stuff in this mall, to have missed that. It just would have been, sorry.
Anyway, enough of that. I am moving on. Like I (and you) said, I can't control it. She either went to the mall with GF and had phone issues, or she is lying straight to my face. In any event, I can't dwell on it, and I won't. It's done.
Good for you GH, I am glad that you had a nice night. No matter what our spouses tell us or don't tell us. We just have to let them be. I know it is hard. We want so badly to trust them. I will read more of the books I got today (see my thread) and give an update tomorrow.
Your W may still be in contact with OM or not, in either case, if you choose to fight for your marriage, there is nothing you can do about it. Just leave her be and stop questioning her every move, I know this drives my H crazy. It makes him feel like he has to answer to and ask permission from "mommy". I do not ever want to be his mommy.
We both need to make changes, even more than we have already done. You said that you both agreed to honesty, right? So don't start treating her like a liar, that will put her on the defensive right away. Just my opinoin, for what it is worth...
