Anyway, for what it's worth, here's my thoughts on the lack of ML in your M. First, under no circumstances should you "grope" your W's breasts during a massage (and before you get defensive, I'm not staying you're still using this tactic.) My H and I have always had a very good sex life but I always hated it when he'd give me a massage and then go for the goods. It made me feel like he was an over-sexed teenage boy and DID NOT put me in the mood.
Yes. This is exactly how my W feels. She's told me so. That's why the back rubs are NOT a window to sex anymore.
Quote: Much more successful was when he gave me full body massages and gently worked his way down my back towards . . . ahem, other areas. I would highly recommend getting some books on erotic massage. Then you can try out some of what you learn on your W. And tell her you've learned some new tricks.
I have done this too but here's the problem. Even before all this happened, my W KNEW the signs from me. If I had candles lit, or massage oils out, she knew I was going to "massage" her and it would end up in sex so if she didn't want sex, she'd just shut me down before even starting. She still does that, just long before the candles even come out. She "senses" what I am after and lets me know that the answer is no. Actually, I have some journaling to do and somehting to report that kinda goes along with all this.
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On the romance front, you need to take a really hard look at what your W appreciates most. Would she love to find out you've scrubbed (and I mean really scrubbed) the bathroom. Maybe she would love to wake up to a champagne breakfast in bed. Perhaps you could take a dance class or cooking class together. Or maybe you can leave her prizes that she can only win by learning something new about you, sharing something about herself or giving you a kiss (and the location of the kiss can change daily.)
Maybe I am just being dramatic, but it seems like my W doesn't appreciate much of anything these days that I do. I have done it all, and all without much "appreciation" from her. Now, I suppose the real issue may be in how she shows appreciation, which, if she does show it at all, is a way I don't understand.
Quote: Study your W to see what makes her tick and if you can't figure it out ASK her. It seems like you and your W are having the same problems as in the famous pina colada song where they go on a blind date and realize it's their spouse and say they never knew the other "liked pina coladas . . . and getting caught in the rain . . ."
I have studied my W more in the past few months than I have in the previous 10 years. I know more now, and less if that's possible.
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You should ask yourself (and ask your W) why it is you want to ML to her so badly. I could be wrong, but it isn't about sex at all. It's about being close to each other and being able to look into each others' eyes and knowing there is something special between the two of you that, regardless of an A, no one else will ever share and no one can ever take away.
I think you are spot on with this. I KNOW that's what I want.
Quote: At some point, not only do you need to tell your W that you've forgiven her and understand the role you played in her A, but you need to tell her it's OK for her to forgive herself. And don't forget that how your W feels about herself will weigh heavily in how she feels towards you.
Yes, and I know she has felt badly about herself for a long time...and still does. I have told her I forgive her and as for her forgiving herself, well, we haven't really gotten into that.
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That said, you are way too accessible to your W right now and she is able to take you for granted and get a little too comfortable. I don't envy the fine line you must walk between leaving a little distance and supporting her through her DUI. Maybe I've missed something, but do you ever go out and do things just for yourself that aren't work or family related?
Well, no, I do not do much that isn't family or work related but what I do that is work related is a LOT of time away from home and me being gone a lot was a BIG part of our issues before this. I have discussed many times before how GAL in the sense that I go out a lot would be a BIG more of the same for me and I don't want to do that.
Quote: I know you're frustrated, but I think it perhaps may be time for you to mix things up a little and be a little mysterious.
Maybe. I think mystery is not a strong suit of mine. I need to work on that.
I have more to post but not much time. Will check in later.
Well, I said I had a little news. Really, it's not that big but in the context of all we have been talking about the last couple days, I think it is important.
Last night, as I'm sure you can all imagine, I was still thinking about all this stuff. I didn't really want to R talk but I felt like I was going to be moody. SO, I just made sure I decided to wait...DECIDED to wait.
Ah, but life has a funny way of altering the best laid plans. When we went to bed, I did something I almost NEVER do, and that is to lay on my side and not reach out for W, usually to give her the nightly back rub. It's not really that I didn't want to, it's just, well, that I didn't do it for whatever reason. It didn't seem right for some reason.
Then, as usual when there is ANY change in my behavior, W noticed and actually asked me to rub her. Now, this is a bit unusal in itself because in the past when I have done the "no back rub thing" she assumed I was in a mood or something and either got in one herself, or just went to sleep. She never just asked in that situation. I was taken by surprise a bit. Well, this is actually how it went...
W: Can I get some back rubbing? You only have to suffer it for a couple minutes. M: Sure (and I start)...and it's not suffering at all. It's just that I want so much more. W: Do you hear yourself? It's always about what YOU want. I KNOW you want more. M: Really? I guess I just don't understand that.
That was it. Nothing more, which again, is HIGHLY unusual. In the past, one or both of us would have felt the need to attack or defend. It was just left at that, mainly, I think, because I had no desire to get into a talk then, in the time and place when SO many of our worst fights had happened.
The other strange thing was that I kept rubbing her and she "let me". Again, usually when I expressed anything like not wanting to rub her, she would get pissy and roll over, kinda pulling away from me. I kept rubbing because I meant what I said, that I didn't mind but I wanted more. She seemed to hear that and while I didn't like her answer, she took me at face value and we just kept on, in silence until she fell asleep...interesting.
The whole exchange was fascinating to me in the context of all the passive agressive stuff. I realized just how PA my W was and how I never noticed it.
Anyway, I have not really analyzed what happened much. I KNOW there is plenty more that could have been said, but really this let me know that W is still in MLC or whatever-land where she can't see anything outside her own needs. In some VERY strange way, this gave me comfort. It gave me some kind of new lease on working on ME only and dropping the whole pretext that we are full-on reconciling, at least for now.
Epilog...
Tonight I decided to go see a movie...alone. Well, I went and then decided not to stay because the movie I wanted to see was sold out. I came home. Went to the kitchen to say hi to W and then go upstairs to get some work done...or watch a movie,or something. As I turned to go, W reached out to me and gave me a big hug. That was only the second time in, well, a LONG time she's done that. Will wonders never cease...
W got a flat yesterday. The tire is a special tire that you can't just get anywhere so we had to wait until today to get a replacement from the dealer (it's a run-flat so it could not be fixed). My W wanted me to follow her down there since it's right on the way to my work. I did, and she called a bit later and said it was going to be until 3-4pm until they could get the tire from another location and get it put on.
She said she was going to get a ride from the dealership to the mall that is right next to my work. I said great, so we CAN meet for lunch (we had talked about it earlier). She said sure but she would call me and let me know, etc.
So, she calls a few minutes later and says her GF said she wanted to go shopping and was going to pick W up from dealership and to to a different mall, slightly farther away from my work, but still VERY close so we could have lunch. I told W I would call her when I was taking my break. She said fine.
I called...and called...and called...her phone often just goes straight to VM or says "user busy". I have seen this as a problem when other people call too so I don't take it as her blowing me off...SO, she finally calls back and asks me if I was coming over. I said, yes. She said "Oh. well we are still trying things on and won't be eating yet."
I said that was fine and would see her soon.
I left about 45 minutes later and called her on the way to figure out where she was...and called...and called.
Finally, I got to the mall, she never answered and I left after walking around the food court and past her fav. store.
As I was leaving, I left her a VM saying "W, I want to be direct with you. I am angry at being stood up. I thought it was clear that I was coming to meet you for lunch. Also, I think with the dealership calling you to tell you when your car is ready, you would check your phone more often than once an hour, assuming you can't hear it ring. I will talk to you later."
I didn't know what else to say...right then.
Of course, there IS more I maybe COULD have said, like how it seems VERY convenient that she "misses" my calls at a time when I supposedly was in the same mall as her. OF course, I was thinking that she was with OM and THAT's why she didn't answer, because if she did, she could not lie her way out of me coming to where she was. I COULD have said I thought she wasn't at that mall at all. Maybe I should have said all that, and maybe I still will, but I need you all to help me.
First, W told me awhile ago that I could expect total honesty from her. I want to hold her to that. I WANT to ask her for some kind of reassurance that she was with who she said she was with and where she said she was. I feel like that will set a lot of things in motion, least of which is her refusing to do it, getting VERY angry. I am NOT concerned about that, but what I am concerned with is IF, for my OWN good, I need to be asking these questions, and asking for this reassurance.
I feel like W committed to a open/honest relationship with me, and I have the right, as someone in a relationship like that, to ask for reassurance. On the other hand, I think she expects a certain amount of trust, something that I don't know if I can give right now.
What do I do. DO I ask her more about this? From the message I left, she's bound to be upset at the implication but how do I proceed?
I think I want to talk to her about this and let her know how it made me feel. I want to ask her to, in the name of that open relationship we are supposed to have, reassure me that I am just being paranoid.
I WANT to tell her that I may need more of this and not to take it personally but just as a carryover from the recent past that SHOULD be understandable.
IF she is being honest, then this is all me. That's what I am afraid of. I am afraid that I am flying off at the handle, knowing nothing and possibly turning this into an international incident needlessly.
The last thing is that there is something new in the mall she supposedly went to, something she could not have possibly missed. If I can figure a way to ask her about that, and she knows what I am talking about, at least I will know she was there.
I'm sorry you all, I am just feeling tired lately as you all know and doubting some things I took for granted, especially that OM is gone. I have even been close to doing my ultimate no-no, snooping in her phone because I am snooping to confirm that she is not done with OM ONLY, not any details. I have not, and really don't plan to but the justification is there in my mind, and growing daily.
Help...I feel like I am coming across as desperate and needy to her. I don't want to be that way. I only thought we had lunch plans and then all this. Am I making a big deal out of nothing?
This is so frustrating. Clearly I am not the one to give you advice as I am a basket case. My opinoin is you need a fresh perspective from someone who has been there done that already like OT or Underdog.
I truly hope your W is not lying to you. I wouldn't give her the "test" though, that is not very DB like. Hang in there!
Interesting. I fully expected a call as soon as "sufficient" time had passed for me to be gone from where she SAID she was.
Maybe my saying I was angry on her VM has something to do with that. I didn't yell or SOUND anything but upset. I thought I did a 180 there because usually I would have just sounded pissy, made some kind of sarcastic remark and just hung up. I was honest with her. Isn't that what I am supposed to be doing? It just doesn't feel right.
Right now, I FEEL like a controlling bastard. I am? Help...When she does call, which will have to be arranging to pick the kids up (we don't know who will be available first at this point) I don't want to do something stupid. The way I feel right now, I may and that won't be good.
Last night she was talking about us all taking a vacation with her family to Canada in the next month or so, and now this. I just can't help but feel that the almost TOTAL lack of intimacy between us signifies more than just my ineptitude.
I truly hope your W is not lying to you. I wouldn't give her the "test" though, that is not very DB like. Hang in there!
I know. What I am wanting/feeling I should do right now is NOT very DB-like but DB's approach to this is all about detaching from negatives when you see them as such, right? I WANT to believe my W when she says OM is gone and she's with GF today, but this just feels exactly like it did all those months where her phone would mysteriously go on the "blink" during the times when she had the best opportunity to see OM. She later confessed that it was true, that she WAS with him a lot in those hours.
So now, this happens and I want to ask her point blank, when was the last time you saw OM? The MOST irrational part of me wants to talk to this GF (not that I think she wouldn't cover for W, I actually don't know if she would or not) and see if W was with her.
ALL VERY UN DB. I suppose, in another admission, I thought my W committing to being honest with me, something she would not do earlier, excused me from certain parts of DB that prevented me from directly asking her these things. I just don't know anymore. Am I just paranoid? Am I going nuts? Is she really full of $hit? I just don't know anymore, and the worst part is, I have no real reason to think any of it that was not there a week, two, four ago.
A lesson I have learned is do NOT really on cell phones. There's been times that a voice mail or txtmssge has not been delivered timely or has been totally lost, and it's not just H telling me a story, I know it does happen. Maybe not much help for you, but something to consider?
Live your life while you are still living. Riding the trail less traveled.
GH I wish I had wise words for you, as you have always shared when the rest of us are spiraling in frustration... I guess I have more of a question...When you NEED affirmations from your spouse that things are how they say they are, and you have established you are in an honest and communicative relationship, is it wrong to ask for that? It seems from your posts the past week, that maybe you need to sit her down and tell her how you feel...just my thoughts, but I am not feeling particularly rational today so, grain of salt my friend!
