You are suggesting that my W's stance of being unhappy but doing nothing WITH ME about it is ok.
Nope, not at all. Actually, I am suggesting that you are helping her do nothing, which is NOT OK.
You have said that my lack of intimacy and initiation is a problem here, almost NEVER adressing anything about here.
Uh, why in the world do you think I keep telling you that you need to set some boundaries about the treatment you are willing to accept? You can't control what she does, but you can control what you accept and how you behave based on what you are getting.
To actually go against myself, I understand that you are talking to ME and trying to help ME take action here, but I, well,
Certainly.
I just feel like there is room for BOTH of us to work on this and up to now, I don't see her part, nor do I see you ever suggesting that she do anything but wait until I "get it" or just leave me. Isn't there any middle ground THERE?
YOU are the one doing all the work. I think you need to stop doing all the work. I have suggested more than once that you talk to her about what you need, that you read PM with her, etc... YOU are the one who is not partnering with her on this. I certainly think you need to partner with her to change this.
Now, if she has flat out made it clear that she will not have sex with you, why are you continuing to torture yourself? "W, I love the physical intimacy between us, but it is simply too painful for me to keep up when it never includes lovemaking. I feel like you are treating me like your brother, and I find it humiliating and emasculating. I am not willing to live in a sexless M forever, but I am willing to give you some more time now to work through things. But, I cannot keep trying to increase the passion in our M when you are not also engaged in that project. I'm going to have to take a break from that for awhile. But, again, I am not willing to put it on hold forever, or even for a long time. This is something we need to work on together for this M to work for me. In the meantime, I need to respect my own feelings, back off, and plan to satisfy myself sexually in a healthy way alone for awhile. Of course, I will always welcome your assistance. In the meantime, buy your own KY and I'll buy mine."
Quote: Nope, not at all. Actually, I am suggesting that you are helping her do nothing, which is NOT OK.
Point already agreed to...then argued again. Gotta stop doing that.
Quote: Uh, why in the world do you think I keep telling you that you need to set some boundaries about the treatment you are willing to accept? You can't control what she does, but you can control what you accept and how you behave based on what you are getting.
Ok. Don't know what else to say but ok. I get it but it's hard to actually DO for me. Dunno why. Probably decades of doing differently in general and one doing it with her.
Quote:
Now, if she has flat out made it clear that she will not have sex with you, why are you continuing to torture yourself? "W, I love the physical intimacy between us, but it is simply too painful for me to keep up when it never includes lovemaking. I feel like you are treating me like your brother, and I find it humiliating and emasculating. I am not willing to live in a sexless M forever, but I am willing to give you some more time now to work through things. But, I cannot keep trying to increase the passion in our M when you are not also engaged in that project. I'm going to have to take a break from that for awhile. But, again, I am not willing to put it on hold forever, or even for a long time. This is something we need to work on together for this M to work for me.
Are you a scriptwriter? This is GOOD stuff. Wish I had thougt of it, but even though I didn't, I will use it. You have articulated my thoughts perfectly, once again. It took some bumps and bruises to get here but...
And there there is this, which needs a quote of it's very own...
Quote: In the meantime, I need to respect my own feelings, back off, and plan to satisfy myself sexually in a healthy way alone for awhile. Of course, I will always welcome your assistance. In the meantime, buy your own KY and I'll buy mine."
I think I will not be using this part. It's funny as hell and has me rolling but a little TMI for me. She knows I can "take care of myself" and probabaly thinks I am getting carpel-tunnel by now so I don't really need to go there.
Thanks again for this help. I am printing your "script" as we speak.
Here's the thing y'all. I just talked to my W. She called me to vent about some issues she's having with this friend of hers. Actually I was supposed to tell you that story but I don't feel like it right now (just funny, not that important)...anyway, we talked and communicated and supported and all that good stuff that we didn't really do a good job with before, especially me. That part is SO much better than before and I can't help but think that the rest is soon to follow.
I was reading the post by underdog on Mama's thread and I got to thinking.
Something she said about her XH, and this part was a little vague (or is that me) but I think she was trying to say that he had an affair with someone and blamed a lot of it on his passive/agressive behavior.
Wow, whether that's what she was saying or not, the description of someone who is passive/agressive, or just plain non-confrontational, getting involved with someone and failing to stop things at a certain point because of their "issues" seemed to be a REALLY good description of what MAY have happened with my W. She has alluded to that before and I think this MAY fill in some gaps in what happened.
I also realized that my own fear of confrontation is much worse than I thought and I really need to get a handle on it. I am bumping that up to 1st priority when I get back with C in a few weeks.
In the meantime, I have a lot of thinking to do. Maybe this can help me get my mind off sex...lol.
I have to fess up here becuase in looking back at my own experiences, this is a LARGE part of why I got involved with the situation I did several years ago. I really hate bringing up my own shortcomings, but even when the hammer fell I wanted to avoid any confrontation at all with either my W or the OW and found that is was very hard to end things just because of that very reason.
I guess to be fair, I wonder how much that really led up to what i was doing in the first place....I suppose I felt that my "needs" weren't being met, but was I forthcoming in what those needs really were?
A good point to ponder GH....and now it has me wondering quite a bit about things.
"Achieve success, but without vanity; Achieve success, but without aggression; Achieve success, but without gain; Achieve success, but without force." Lao Tzu
Hey there, GH! I'm glad that my post resonated with you. You got it! It's a wonderful thing that your wheels are turning and you want to dig a little deeper with your fear of conflict.
If it makes you feel better, I grew up with a verbally emotional family--behaviors that I see now as downright abusive and not "outspoken". We were guilty of name calling. We just figured since we kissed and made up later that we had tough skins. Hardly.
My siblings and I grew up very defensive. Any means of constructive criticism seemed to bring out those defensive behaviors, so that any attempts at discussing conflicts were immediatly countered with hostility and name calling at times. Not exactly a reaction that made anyone feel like they could be honest and expect to work on a solution.
Once I figured out that I could change that about myself, I began to think of ways that I might be able to teach my XH how to communicate with me in a healthy manner as well. You can imagine my dismay when I realized that it was probably going to be a lifetime mission... because I realized that his reactions began in childhood as well. Where I had a desire and motive to change, he didn't see that his way was all that bad. Even though he felt shame and anger after he reacted dishonestly, he was very quickly able to project back to me (or anyone else) that their behavior was the reason he felt threatened. Yes, you guessed it... someone else was responsible for his behavior.
In truth, he was responsible... he felt awful, and nobody knew it but him because he was too afraid to let others know how he was feeling. I chalked that one up to his parents, but I also know that he could change if I did. I'm not sure if I've been able to convince him that his parents aren't responsible for our D...
So if I had any advice on where to start it would be to begin every conversation with a goal in mind... to communicate, listen and respond maturely and appropriately. I'd ask myself if what I was about to say was honest, and I'd also ask myself if I was being unfair in any way, shape or form. If there is any discomfort in proceeding, button the lip until you figure it out.
BTW, Mr. Wonderful didn't have an affair. Infidelity was not part of our demise. BUT, you're absolutely right that he blamed me for his leaving. For the longest time, I couldn't figure out how that could be, given the fact that he left on his own accord. But he couldn't see that how he felt was the problem... not what I was doing. And even though I knew push had come to shove in our marriage and that we needed help, I had NO inkling that he was as bad off as he was. He blamed ME for how HE felt. I knew he wasn't happy and I asked him numerous times throughout our marriage to open up. He'd deny, deny, deny... telling me that I was imagining things and to leave him be. When he left, he told me he had been unhappy for years (no surprise there) and that he just hadn't told me. It took me quite awhile to see the dynamics of why, because I blamed him for not telling me for the longest time. I was finally able to see how I played a part in that.
I can promise you that thinking about your own feelings and how they affect communication will DEFINITELY take your mind off sex. It made me somewhat asexual for a long time. The pendulum swung the other way--to the point where I felt I couldn't have an effective conversation with any male adult. I figured that I'd have to talk to a man before I had sex with him, and that was a pretty big deterrent!
I know it's tough... all of it. I won't sugar coat or lie, either. But the lessons I learned as a result of his leaving were priceless. I'm a much happier, less angry woman than I have ever been in my life. Periodically, I thank him for them. He always responds with a very puzzled expression... but he knows I'm sincere and just can't figure out how I found a silver lining in a black cloud. One of these days, I'll share my secret with him. But he's going to have to ask...
TTFN and good luck! Have a great weekend.
Betsey
"There are only 2 ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle."
Geesh, go away from the boards for a few days and come back to see you've almost gone through a whole thread.
Anyway, for what it's worth, here's my thoughts on the lack of ML in your M. First, under no circumstances should you "grope" your W's breasts during a massage (and before you get defensive, I'm not staying you're still using this tactic.) My H and I have always had a very good sex life but I always hated it when he'd give me a massage and then go for the goods. It made me feel like he was an over-sexed teenage boy and DID NOT put me in the mood.
Much more successful was when he gave me full body massages and gently worked his way down my back towards . . . ahem, other areas. I would highly recommend getting some books on erotic massage. Then you can try out some of what you learn on your W. And tell her you've learned some new tricks.
Second, next time you start to lean in to kiss her, pull back before she has a chance to do so. You need to play a little hard to get. Remember, for some sick reason we all want what we can't have.
I would also suggest that you make a conscious decision not to have sex. That will give you a little sanity.
On the romance front, you need to take a really hard look at what your W appreciates most. Would she love to find out you've scrubbed (and I mean really scrubbed) the bathroom. Maybe she would love to wake up to a champagne breakfast in bed. Perhaps you could take a dance class or cooking class together. Or maybe you can leave her prizes that she can only win by learning something new about you, sharing something about herself or giving you a kiss (and the location of the kiss can change daily.)
Study your W to see what makes her tick and if you can't figure it out ASK her. It seems like you and your W are having the same problems as in the famous pina colada song where they go on a blind date and realize it's their spouse and say they never knew the other "liked pina coladas . . . and getting caught in the rain . . ."
Not too long ago my H and I spent the day in bed together asking each other questions we thought we knew the answers to, and for the most part we did. Some were light like "what's your favorite color," but others were much more serious like "what are you most afraid of" and "if you could change anything about yourself what would you change." It was eye-opening and was amazingly intimate.
You should ask yourself (and ask your W) why it is you want to ML to her so badly. I could be wrong, but it isn't about sex at all. It's about being close to each other and being able to look into each others' eyes and knowing there is something special between the two of you that, regardless of an A, no one else will ever share and no one can ever take away.
At some point, not only do you need to tell your W that you've forgiven her and understand the role you played in her A, but you need to tell her it's OK for her to forgive herself. And don't forget that how your W feels about herself will weigh heavily in how she feels towards you.
That said, you are way too accessible to your W right now and she is able to take you for granted and get a little too comfortable. I don't envy the fine line you must walk between leaving a little distance and supporting her through her DUI. Maybe I've missed something, but do you ever go out and do things just for yourself that aren't work or family related?
I know you're frustrated, but I think it perhaps may be time for you to mix things up a little and be a little mysterious.
Wow, sorry for the long post--your thread is long enough.
Quote: You should ask yourself (and ask your W) why it is you want to ML to her so badly. I could be wrong, but it isn't about sex at all. It's about being close to each other and being able to look into each others' eyes and knowing there is something special between the two of you that, regardless of an A, no one else will ever share and no one can ever take away.
This really made me wake up and smell the coffee. It's not really the sex that I want either. It's the feeling, I want to feel like my H truely loves me and only me. I want reassurance from him and am associating that feeling with ML. Now along with thinking about how not to be passive/aggressive I have even more to think about. I will be spending so much time with introspection that I'll have no time left to think about my stich - this could be a good thing!!
Betsey